mirror/ self images

[Smack500]

Im not complaining, I just wanted to know. Why does valve not want you to see yourself (gordon) in the game.

 

[Feath]

Because it takes away from "You" being Gordon. Also, there's a point that every mirror that shows you in the game looks awful. The movement never looks right, because you don't move in real life like you do in a game.

 

[Cybernoid]

Most probable reason: they have this crazy idea that seeing yourself (Gordon) in the game reminds you of the fact that you are a player behind a keyboard, despite the fact that everyone in the game calls you Gordon Freeman, and you have a certain appearance and a certain history. And - to some extent - a personality.

 

[Cybernoid]

Because it takes away from "You" being Gordon. Also, there's a point that every mirror that shows you in the game looks awful. The movement never looks right, because you don't move in real life like you do in a game.

Real life != game. You are basically suggesting that a dinosaur's movement wouldn't look right because that's not how you move.

 

[Feath]

Real life != game. You are basically suggesting that a dinosaur's movement wouldn't look right because that's not how you move.

No I'm not. I'm saying that seeing yourself in a mirror will automatically give you a feeling of "That doesn't look right".

Valve may not approach the lack of Gordon's reflexions in a "Vampire effect" kind of way (You see everything else but yourself). You may just not come across a mirror in game. It's possible to do that but not make it look out of place.

 

[Smack500]

I loved half life dont get me wrong, but I always kind of wished your character had more involvement. You dont talk or see yourself, this makes me feel more out of games then the opposite. Everyone talks to you but you just walk around killing and progressing like a mute soldier or robot.

 

[Cybernoid]

No I'm not. I'm saying that seeing yourself in a mirror will automatically give you a feeling of "That doesn't look right".

It looks exactly right because that's how Gordon moves in the game. It's just a reflection. If you see Alyx in the mirror, do you think "oh no that looks weird?" Besides, Valve can't be held responsible for something that's in your head.

I loved half life dont get me wrong, but I always kind of wished your character had more involvement. You dont talk or see yourself, this makes me feel more out of games then the opposite. Everyone talks to you but you just walk around killing and progressing like a mute soldier or robot.

It's a common myth that Gordon and Barney etc. never talk. They do talk, but you just don't hear it. That's the whole point.

 

[Maui]

Gordon talks, but no one responds!






Or maybe I just sit all alone and talk to my monitor when I play HL

 

[[daniom]]

hehe... The game could ask you to upload one picture of you before starting the game, Then that picture would be automaticaly transform to a head model, on top of Gordons body

 

[Cybernoid]

They could (if they wanted to) give Gordon facial expressions, very subtle ones. It would make him seem less static when reflected.

 

[Varsity]

It's a common myth that Gordon and Barney etc. never talk. They do talk, but you just don't hear it. That's the whole point.

I can think of one time in BS where Barney presumably talks but we don't hear (the imprisoned scientists). There are no such times in HL.

 

[Cybernoid]

I can think of one time in BS where Barney presumably talks but we don't hear (the imprisoned scientists). There are no such times in HL.

It was just made more obvious in BS. I find it highly improbable that Gordon can function in a research laboratory without saying one word.

 

[czrsink]

But then, it is only a game, afterall.

 

[Smack500]

Yes its only a game, but there are several games (some very succesfull ones) where you can see the main character you are playing with, and he/she talks/ interacts with other characters. Farcry, Doom III, MGS series, Halo, splinter cell, etc etc etc...

 

[Sparta]

Half-Life 2 looks like it will have plenty of character interaction, so i wouldn't worry about anything

 

[czrsink]

Precisely. Who cares if you can see your reflection in the mirror or not? You could always go to the console and enter 'chase_active 1' or whatever if you're so desperate to see what he looks like...

 

[Varsity]

It was just made more obvious in BS. I find it highly improbable that Gordon can function in a research laboratory without saying one word.

Of course, but he doesn't speak while the palyer is controlling him.

 

[Matthias]

One major problem is that Gordon is a floating eyeball with hands. He doesn't have any legs, if you were standing on a mirror and looked down, you'd see the soles of your feet!

Personally I think the whole "it's more imersive if you don't see Gordon" is only part of the reason and that it's just too difficult to have realistic reflections of your character.

 

[Cybernoid]

it's just too difficult to have realistic reflections of your character.

We've had reflections like that since Duke Nukem 3D...

 

[Putz]

Doom III never had your character talk. And the mirrors in that game were horrific... I got a pretty decent system, but it always seemed like there was a graphical lag in the mirror after I moved.

bah, maybe i'm just jaded...

 

[Matthias]

We've had reflections like that since Duke Nukem 3D...

There weren't any realistic mirrors in dn3D! Even Doom3 doesn't have what I would consider to be realistic reflections, ie. reflections that are even slightly believable.

For example when you standing in front of a mirror and look from left to right, you head moves, you don't rotate your entire body as if you're mounted on a turntable.

 

[Smack500]

I started this thread wrong, I wasnt concerned that much about mirrors as I was with actually seeing your self in the game at some point ( withought using console commands), and seeing more character involvement.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

If you think about it too much, not seeing Gordon sounds bad. But the point is that you're not supposed to think about it. If valve doesn't make Gordon for you, then you develop your own Gordon subconciously to fill the blanks. During gameplay, you don't notice not having visible feet and things like that. You just subconciously assume feet are there. So, even when you look down, your mind fills in the blanks.

This is a useful strategy because it allows you to do things that no game can possibly do anytime soon. Is there a texture on the floor that you want a better look at? If your feet were visible, there's no command for "move my left foot a few inches to the right so I can see the rock underneath it". But, with Valve's strategy, you look at the rock, and subconciously assume your foot has been moved out of the way. It's only when you really analyse the situation that your feet "disappear", because you're removing the illusion.

It also allows you to do things that would require a thousand seperate buttons. Do you drive your car gangster-style with one hand at 12 'o clock on the wheel? Since Valve doesn't show Gordon's hands on the steering wheel, you can imagine that he does too, without having to press the "j" key to switch grip styles.

When you look at the movies and screenshots, the no-hands approach is distracting because you see a wheel turning by itself.
But, when actually playing the game, You think "I will turn left" and then the wheel turns left, and the car turns along with it. Since you were engaged in all those actions, your brain fills in the middle part automatically: your hand must have been on the wheel in order for you to have turned it. So, you automatically assume, despite the visual evidence, that you must have been holding the wheel. Then, you automatically assume you must have been using your hand, which must have been attached to your arm, etc.

People always say: "Well, if you can see your hand holding the guns, why can't you see it turning the steering wheel or grabbing a paint can?"

Really, it's the other way around: "If you're supposed to imagine how you pick things up or how you drive, why did Valve decide to use a model instead of imagination to represent holding a gun?"

The answer to that is pretty simple. If they didn't show you holding the gun, you would have a gun just floating in the air in front of you. Unlike tossing a can or climbing a ladder, the Gun is an important thing that you have to look at all the time. You need to look at the gun constantly, because it shows you important visual information.

The hand animations show you when you're reloading and when you're ready to fire. And the gun, on the basic level shows you which weapon you're using and which weapon you're switching to.


There definitely will be more character involvement from the NPCs, thanks to the new faial animation system and some quality voice acting. You won't see gordon for a couple reasons though.

First of all, having Gordon interact with the NPCs automatically while you're talking to them means that there's automatically less things you can do. Let's take this example sequence:

Valve style:

Alyx: Follow me Gordon!
Gordon: ...

Farcry style:

Alyx: Follow me Gordon!
Gordon: Let's get out of here!

From this written standpoint, The farcry one is better. Why would Gordon be a mute?
But, ingame, the Valve version is better, because of one key reason: What if you didn't want to follow her? With the imagination thing, you can replace the "..." with any statement you want, automatically.
You can say "sure", or you can say "screw you, I'm going this way". It works really well.

For a good example of what I'm talking about, try this: Play some HL1, and find a barney. Now, instead of just pushing the use key, think about what you would say to a real person at the same time.

If you think "follow me", and then Barney says "sure, we might stand a better chance if we team up", it's kinda freaky.

 

[Ownzed]

It would just ruin the game I guess.

 

[Lanthanide]

What I'm worried about is the whole non-talking thing.

In HL1 it was ok, because you didn't really need to say anything, you just went here and the scientists said "do this, do that", but in HL2 it looks like you're supposed to be more involved with the characters, ie, the same person will show up over several levels (while in HL1, each specific character was seen once, maybe twice, and that was it)..

So that means either:

1. All of the conversations you have with the characters will be of the form of them telling you to do something.
-This is unrealistic and somewhat plastic - you're just a robot to fulfill their every whim and desire.
2. There will be actual conversations where Gordon talks back, but you don't hear what he says.
-This is confusing and stupid at the worst, and at it's best means that the other characters will have to 'repeat' what you 'said' or make it obvious what you 'said' somehow, which is, again, cheesey and plastic.

Also not seeing yourself in mirrors - IMO it adds a lot of immersion to the game to see your character in the mirror.

IMO Valve have made some bad choices, but we'll see how well it works.

 

[Reaktor4]

I wouldve prefered not only to be able to see and hear gordon, but also to be able to see his body in first person view, like you can in thief 3. Valves 'reason' sounds more like an excuse to me. If they wanted you to think you were gordon why does he even have a name? It just doesnt make sense to me.

 

[BRODIEMAN2k4]

Gordon doesnt talk for the same reason that Link and the guy from GTA3 doesnt talk, it's supposed to be you

But it works better in HL, since you don't actually see yourself,so a mirror would just ruin the effect

 

[Smack500]

If you think about it too much, not seeing Gordon sounds bad. But the point is that you're not supposed to think about it. If valve doesn't make Gordon for you, then you develop your own Gordon subconciously to fill the blanks. During gameplay, you don't notice not having visible feet and things like that. You just subconciously assume feet are there. So, even when you look down, your mind fills in the blanks.

This is a useful strategy because it allows you to do things that no game can possibly do anytime soon. Is there a texture on the floor that you want a better look at? If your feet were visible, there's no command for "move my left foot a few inches to the right so I can see the rock underneath it". But, with Valve's strategy, you look at the rock, and subconciously assume your foot has been moved out of the way. It's only when you really analyse the situation that your feet "disappear", because you're removing the illusion.

It also allows you to do things that would require a thousand seperate buttons. Do you drive your car gangster-style with one hand at 12 'o clock on the wheel? Since Valve doesn't show Gordon's hands on the steering wheel, you can imagine that he does too, without having to press the "j" key to switch grip styles.

When you look at the movies and screenshots, the no-hands approach is distracting because you see a wheel turning by itself.
But, when actually playing the game, You think "I will turn left" and then the wheel turns left, and the car turns along with it. Since you were engaged in all those actions, your brain fills in the middle part automatically: your hand must have been on the wheel in order for you to have turned it. So, you automatically assume, despite the visual evidence, that you must have been holding the wheel. Then, you automatically assume you must have been using your hand, which must have been attached to your arm, etc.

People always say: "Well, if you can see your hand holding the guns, why can't you see it turning the steering wheel or grabbing a paint can?"

Really, it's the other way around: "If you're supposed to imagine how you pick things up or how you drive, why did Valve decide to use a model instead of imagination to represent holding a gun?"

The answer to that is pretty simple. If they didn't show you holding the gun, you would have a gun just floating in the air in front of you. Unlike tossing a can or climbing a ladder, the Gun is an important thing that you have to look at all the time. You need to look at the gun constantly, because it shows you important visual information.

The hand animations show you when you're reloading and when you're ready to fire. And the gun, on the basic level shows you which weapon you're using and which weapon you're switching to.


There definitely will be more character involvement from the NPCs, thanks to the new faial animation system and some quality voice acting. You won't see gordon for a couple reasons though.

First of all, having Gordon interact with the NPCs automatically while you're talking to them means that there's automatically less things you can do. Let's take this example sequence:

Valve style:

Alyx: Follow me Gordon!
Gordon: ...

Farcry style:

Alyx: Follow me Gordon!
Gordon: Let's get out of here!

From this written standpoint, The farcry one is better. Why would Gordon be a mute?
But, ingame, the Valve version is better, because of one key reason: What if you didn't want to follow her? With the imagination thing, you can replace the "..." with any statement you want, automatically.
You can say "sure", or you can say "screw you, I'm going this way". It works really well.

For a good example of what I'm talking about, try this: Play some HL1, and find a barney. Now, instead of just pushing the use key, think about what you would say to a real person at the same time.

If you think "follow me", and then Barney says "sure, we might stand a better chance if we team up", it's kinda freaky.

the only way I could see someone imagining all this is if there a psyocopath. I never once imagined feet under me when looking down. Also when playing half life did you respond to the automated voices ??? I would say 99% dont because it would be rediculous. EX. hey gordon You say: hey barney how are you ? He says: nothing because hes automated !!!! just as you should have some automated voice script to add to the story.

You say they dont add in lines for your character so you can have a choice, but the fact remains you still dont have a choice. In half life you still had to do certain things to progress theres verry little options of where to go in the game.

As for the steering wheel Last I dont really remember being able to turn the vehicle(s used in half life. And your telling me a lil meter with an up and down error is better then a steering wheel/ pedals/ levers. Much more unrealistic.

I loved half life and think it was a much better game then far cry/ alot of others that did this. But because of gameplay, ai, and it was just more fun.

Who here inivisioned steering wheels/ pedals, feet/ legs, or talked to characters while playing through the game???

 

[Reaktor4]

I dont think the gta3 guy is actually supposed to be you. In every other gta game the character had a name/story etc.

 

[Smack500]

Gordon doesnt talk for the same reason that Link and the guy from GTA3 doesnt talk, it's supposed to be you

But it works better in HL, since you don't actually see yourself,so a mirror would just ruin the effect

Then why does everyone in the game call you freeman, this would also ruin that effect.