Political ideologies

[Solaris]

The state should be at it largest just before it is extuingeshed forever, like a dying flame.

-Trotsky

 

[<RJMC>]

Er, many forms of communism reject the idea of the nation state.

them why in almost all comunist countryes the state control it all?

oh yeah is the "transition" to the comunist state

 

[Eejit]

I think it's kind of an all-or-nothing thing really. As long as some other nations exist you have to maintain your own in self-defense. They'd all have to go at once, or all fade out gradually together.

 

[<RJMC>]

yeah and like in anarchism we all will be singing kumbaya in circles

 

[CptStern]

better than living under the dictator's oppressive heel ...aint that right, RJMC?

 

[Mr Stabby]

communism does require a state, without markets there is no rational way to determine the value of resources, so a government is necessary to do an inefficient inexact substitute.

 

[Stigmata]

Numbers: Have you ever thought that Statism could be the disruptive element of society you are projecting on other imagined social ills?

 

[Remus]

Well according to the quiz on politicalcompass.org, I'm a moderate social libertarian.

 

[<RJMC>]

better than living under the dictator's oppressive heel ...aint that right, RJMC?

yeah like the ones you want cuz you will be part of the ruling party

 

[99.vikram]

Laissez Faire capitalist. The only concession I'll make is a social security net funded by a modest tax, so the unemployed and sick don't starve.

People will organize themselves to fund industry and infrastructure.

Without the support of government (i.e military + police) I believe today's oppressive corporations would fall back in line.

 

[CptStern]

yeah like the ones you want cuz you will be part of the ruling party

ya communism is popular in canada. in fact that's why our flag has red in it

 

[Stigmata]

Well according to the quiz on politicalcompass.org, I'm a moderate social libertarian.

I haven't done this in a while, and I'm guessing a lot of people here haven't either. New thread or should we all just post our results here?

[edit]
-5.12 Economic Left
-7.49 Social Libertarian

Sounds exactly right.

 

[Eejit]

Without the support of government (i.e military + police) I believe today's oppressive corporations would fall back in line.

Hahaha, good one.

 

[Stigmata]

Laissez Faire capitalist. The only concession I'll make is a social security net funded by a modest tax, so the unemployed and sick don't starve.

People will organize themselves to fund industry and infrastructure.

Without the support of government (i.e military + police) I believe today's oppressive corporations would fall back in line.

You've got it backwards. Without the support of oppressive corporations, today's government would fall back in line.

 

[99.vikram]

You've got it backwards. Without the support of oppressive corporations, today's government would fall back in line.

As a wise poet said before me, "Hahaha, good one!"

Every socioeconomic clusterf*ck that I can remember happened because government took your money to go to war, to subsidize crap below market rates (housing loans, as a recent example), or to thwart competition (forced purchase of insurance, delivering the $$ directly from your wallet to the established industry giants.)

No wait, I'm wrong. Religion and intolerance are responsible for some bad stuff too.

EDIT: In case my point isn't clear, today's corporations are oppressive because politicians (being human) can be bought, and governments have a monopoly on the use of force.

 

[hakojo]

As a wise poet said before me, "Hahaha, good one!"

Every socioeconomic clusterf*ck that I can remember happened because government took your money to go to war, to subsidize crap below market rates (housing loans, as a recent example), or to thwart competition (forced purchase of insurance, delivering the $$ directly from your wallet to the established industry giants.)

No wait, I'm wrong. Religion and intolerance are responsible for some bad stuff too.

Where do I line up to make sweet, passionate love to you?

 

[Eejit]

Todays corporations are oppressive because they have no concerns or duty to anything other than "do whatever it takes, ruin as many people's lives, so long as you can make as much profit as possible, no matter how many friends you lose or people you leave dead and bloodied along the way, just so long so you can make as much profit as possible, no matter how many friends you lose or people you leave dead and bloodied and dying along the way".

 

[99.vikram]

@Eejit, a corporation is not some faceless scourge, it a contract between all it's stakeholders to work together towards something. A moment's thought would reveal that corporations turning a profit is not a bad thing, it means something people want is getting created. The money made is what pays salaries and improves thousands of lives.

A corporation is only evil insofar as it perverts social institutions to avoid competition in the market.

Generally it is the middle to lower class that rages against corporations, not realizing that without layers of regulation it would probably be easier for you to set up your own shop (and who knows, knock out a market leader through innovation) Imagine that, being able to set your own terms of employment... Not that the upper classes are blameless, they are the ones doing the perverting after all.

Case in point, in spite of Google and Apple being juggernauts, companies like Foursquare can still find funding and succeed. This is because the government stays away from silicon valley to a far greater extent than traditional industries (oil, healthcare etc.)

 

[Mr Stabby]

Corporations got where they are today by collusion with government. Adam Smith even talks about how merchants and manufacturers controlled the british government in the 18th century.


I think multi national corporations are now so powerful that they cant be stopped by anyone government.

 

[Stigmata]

As a wise poet said before me, "Hahaha, good one!"

Every socioeconomic clusterf*ck that I can remember happened because government took your money to go to war, to subsidize crap below market rates (housing loans, as a recent example), or to thwart competition (forced purchase of insurance, delivering the $$ directly from your wallet to the established industry giants.)

No wait, I'm wrong. Religion and intolerance are responsible for some bad stuff too.

EDIT: In case my point isn't clear, today's corporations are oppressive because politicians (being human) can be bought, and governments have a monopoly on the use of force.

You're misunderstanding just how historically far outside influence on the government goes. The biggest, most critical reason that governments do not follow the will of their peoples is that they instead follow the wills of profiteers. Profiteers begat mercantilism begat corporations. Every socioeconomic cluster**** propagated by a government was engineered by profiteers within the government.

 

[Shakermaker]

Every socioeconomic cluster**** propagated by a government was engineered by profiteers within the government.

You could also argue that profiteers are inherent to governments.

 

[Eejit]

@Eejit, a corporation is not some faceless scourge, it a contract between all it's stakeholders to work together towards something. A moment's thought would reveal that corporations turning a profit is not a bad thing, it means something people want is getting created. The money made is what pays salaries and improves thousands of lives.

The thing is that without laws preventing them from doing so corporations have a tendency to exploit their workers and pollute the land in chasing their profits.
By their very nature capitalist corporations will chase profit disregarding all else except what limits are imposed on them externally, it's their obligation to do so. Without such limits they are even more destructive. They also operate a form of economic feudalism, where the fruit of one's labour is removed in return for a pittance while the lords wallow in wealth generated by their drones.

 

[Sulkdodds]

There is no such thing as a neutral market. If governments have always been a determining factor in any given capitalist society, the resources of the rich have always been a determining factor in the operations of government. Someone mentioned the 18th century, when governments controlled merchant lanes or whatever; well the 18th century is also a wonderful touchstone for our present day, because throughout its length government was continually revealed to be a conspiracy of the rich for their own benefit at the expense of the people supposedly ruled. The rich and powerful entered government in order to become more rich and powerful and to convey wealth and power to their friends and family. Government was an extension of private avarice of which corporations are merely a purer form.

Historically, this is what the state has always been: a racket, a gentleman's agreement to benefit those concerned and **** everyone else. Corporations only decentralise the process. Nowadays, they do not even refrain from legitimising ideology (the common libertarian critique of government is that it is the only coercive organisation that claims an ideological legitimacy). We're living in an age where capitalism has its own attendant myths, as perhaps it always did, and one of them is the idea that 'government intervention in the market' can be distinguished from 'market intervention and government' - as if government interventions were unswayed by specific lobbies and unmotivated by special attachments to particular industries; as if government were not, once again, a tool of the rich for the violation of the poor.

 

[<RJMC>]

if you want to know why I hate the socialist and such well....

when I arrived here in spain I met a tons of people that liked chavez,but barely knew things about what was happening there,like saying the supported the nationalizations of big industries but wouldn fire people by political reason,which was bullshit according to a friend who have family in there
also another one that I told him about how the prochavez senators got the whole national congress cuz the oposition boycoted it and he tolde me "you sure that wasnt a manipulated info?" cuz yeah I like to use false informationw hen showing a argument
the point is that many of you have lived in your 1rst world countryes all your life and sure dont know how really is like in countryes like mine,just as I didnt know until I went here in spain,and off course you start disliking your goverment so much you want a alternative and bam
a cleverly placed sign or webpage tell you of the whole revolutionary thing and you start looking and looking it and feeling about how great this stuff is and how right you are cuz you follow it,and join the hordes of hippies that goes in protest at embassies and shout the automated propaganda you got form those webistes and such
thinking that you have found the "light" and dont listen to other sources cuz "they manipulate you" and recomending them those holy websites or books wich are the only things you see and read and hear
that same friend of the manipulated info also told me he read a book of chavez and disliked cuz it was pure propaganda,I answered whit "what the hell where you expecting?" proving once again that these chavez supporters seem to only look at the youtube videos of his speeches when he blames the usa and them smoke some pot in victory like "dude peoples power dude!I will change the world!"

and yeah they are all anti-police,anti-military and anti state and political correctness in general,saying how much they like 1984
and what his favorite leaders and political figures? castro,chavez and whatever soviet related thing

and you think the police in my country don beat protesters? they dont even let protester near the goverment buildings,unless is a pro chavez protest where the police covers them

so to hell if the police beat protesters and they get mad singin rebelling songs,unless they supports the people that protests against theyr beloved regimens like iran,I will not care a crap about it

like in poland where comunist symbols where banned and they where all "omg they are not leting us express politically! how inhumane omg..!" cuz wait a sec,you dont like that a goverment censor and ban your political ideas and views?? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA holy shit thats a good joke,now be serious

and yeah the fact that chavez allmost allways wear military garments and recently there has been a law that say every citizen from 18 old to 60 must register in a military listing or would get fined,not forced conscription but still a required mandatory listing that will be need to make any state related documentation

and dont even mention how they consider the most simple hint of natioalism as "facism" while in my country they put the national anthem at midnight an midday and must be sang every morning at the schools

I will continue whit more but the post in long enough and I am tired

and yeah sure you will be ready to make a big ass post quoting mine pointing how wrong I am because you are a lefty

so I will tell ya to go living in my country if you like it so much,is easy for you to be suporting all this while you havent lived in the soviet union or just that you deny theyr collapse,and you found the ideas and stuff like that so inspiring but in the countryes where they are applied they dont seem to work very well

and you dont even know crap about my country cuz you only want to see soviet simbols,like some dudes I know who everytime they talk about any subjects relate dot ym country they go "now the usa doesnt have the easy just like how cuba was the easy whorehouse,the influence of the usa is reducing so much,do you imagine if lopez obrador would have won the elections in mexico? a leftist state just under the usausa,usa,usa...." is all your care about and dont give crap about mine cuz barely know a thing of it unless is soviet or chavez related like the "you know why there wasnt a coup de etat in washintong? cuz there isnt a usa embassy there lololol famus joke of latinamerica"

so to hell whit all of you,go protest at the embassies where is where your heroes want to see you so they can broadcast it in the state owned channels

bunch of hipocrites that think are superior cuz are leftists singing the same slogans again and again,talking aobut freedom of speech and all cuz since you can do it you use it a lot,like the uber leftist here talking about humanisn and that stuff cuz since they dont have power they use that techniques to gain support

 

[Sparta]

RJMC I just want to point out that just about everyone here who see's themselves as a "leftist" or left-wing or whatever, they aren't the kind of leftists that worship Castro or Chavez or Stalin or any of that Soviet Super Socialism bollocks.

I'd say just about all of us (regardless of whether we're left or right) really just want to be left to ourselves without the government telling us what we can or cannot do. However, a lot of us also want things like affordable universal healthcare, public schools and transport, police, things like that. To say that we're all Stalin-loving hippies is about as accurate as saying right-wingers are all Nationalist gun-toting traditionalists.

My Dad is American and he voted for John McCain and Sarah Palin in the last U.S. election. I could've voted (I live in Australia but I'm a duel citizen because my father's American and my mother's Australian) and if I did I probably would've voted for Barack Obama or even Ralph Nader. Even though me and my father are on opposite sides of the political spectrum, we still agree on many, many things.

I know your beef is far more to do with socialists than leftists in general, but western democracy has taken a surreal turn in the past few years where just about any large government program being proposed by any center-right political party has been automatically condemned as socialist by the conservative opposition in order to stir up fear of a Stalinist state arising. The government already does a tremendous amount of work in our daily lives without it turning our countries into the USSR. In just about all western democracies alone, governments regulate the food we eat, the water we drink, the cars we drive, the roads we drive on, the electricity we use and how we use it. Without all of those regulatatory frameworks provided and maintained by the government, our lives would be harder and less safe because of it.

In some places you just need government because it's the best and cheapest option.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Yeah, I mean, I'd love to make a big ass post quoting RJMC's pointing how wrong he is because I am a lefty, but, sorry as I am about the whole Venezuela thing, it's just a big strawman.

 

[lord_raken]

if you want to know why I hate the socialist and such well....

when I arrived here in spain I met a tons of people that liked chavez,but barely knew things about what was happening there,like saying the supported the nationalizations of big industries but wouldn fire people by political reason,which was bullshit according to a friend who have family in there
also another one that I told him about how the prochavez senators got the whole national congress cuz the oposition boycoted it and he tolde me "you sure that wasnt a manipulated info?" cuz yeah I like to use false informationw hen showing a argument
the point is that many of you have lived in your 1rst world countryes all your life and sure dont know how really is like in countryes like mine,just as I didnt know until I went here in spain,and off course you start disliking your goverment so much you want a alternative and bam
a cleverly placed sign or webpage tell you of the whole revolutionary thing and you start looking and looking it and feeling about how great this stuff is and how right you are cuz you follow it,and join the hordes of hippies that goes in protest at embassies and shout the automated propaganda you got form those webistes and such
thinking that you have found the "light" and dont listen to other sources cuz "they manipulate you" and recomending them those holy websites or books wich are the only things you see and read and hear
that same friend of the manipulated info also told me he read a book of chavez and disliked cuz it was pure propaganda,I answered whit "what the hell where you expecting?" proving once again that these chavez supporters seem to only look at the youtube videos of his speeches when he blames the usa and them smoke some pot in victory like "dude peoples power dude!I will change the world!"

and yeah they are all anti-police,anti-military and anti state and political correctness in general,saying how much they like 1984
and what his favorite leaders and political figures? castro,chavez and whatever soviet related thing

and you think the police in my country don beat protesters? they dont even let protester near the goverment buildings,unless is a pro chavez protest where the police covers them

so to hell if the police beat protesters and they get mad singin rebelling songs,unless they supports the people that protests against theyr beloved regimens like iran,I will not care a crap about it

like in poland where comunist symbols where banned and they where all "omg they are not leting us express politically! how inhumane omg..!" cuz wait a sec,you dont like that a goverment censor and ban your political ideas and views?? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA holy shit thats a good joke,now be serious

and yeah the fact that chavez allmost allways wear military garments and recently there has been a law that say every citizen from 18 old to 60 must register in a military listing or would get fined,not forced conscription but still a required mandatory listing that will be need to make any state related documentation

and dont even mention how they consider the most simple hint of natioalism as "facism" while in my country they put the national anthem at midnight an midday and must be sang every morning at the schools

I will continue whit more but the post in long enough and I am tired

and yeah sure you will be ready to make a big ass post quoting mine pointing how wrong I am because you are a lefty

so I will tell ya to go living in my country if you like it so much,is easy for you to be suporting all this while you havent lived in the soviet union or just that you deny theyr collapse,and you found the ideas and stuff like that so inspiring but in the countryes where they are applied they dont seem to work very well

and you dont even know crap about my country cuz you only want to see soviet simbols,like some dudes I know who everytime they talk about any subjects relate dot ym country they go "now the usa doesnt have the easy just like how cuba was the easy whorehouse,the influence of the usa is reducing so much,do you imagine if lopez obrador would have won the elections in mexico? a leftist state just under the usausa,usa,usa...." is all your care about and dont give crap about mine cuz barely know a thing of it unless is soviet or chavez related like the "you know why there wasnt a coup de etat in washintong? cuz there isnt a usa embassy there lololol famus joke of latinamerica"

so to hell whit all of you,go protest at the embassies where is where your heroes want to see you so they can broadcast it in the state owned channels

bunch of hipocrites that think are superior cuz are leftists singing the same slogans again and again,talking aobut freedom of speech and all cuz since you can do it you use it a lot,like the uber leftist here talking about humanisn and that stuff cuz since they dont have power they use that techniques to gain support

I feel for you man. My grandfather built a business in Maracaibo from the ground up. Then Chavez "nationalized" it and all his hard work went out the window and before that the government had made it impossible for him to even pay his hardworking employees. I know that the effect Chavez has had on me is NOTING compared to what he is doing to Venezuela right now, but I am with you on this.

If tomorrow someone put a bullet between his eyes, I would not lose any sleep over it.

 

[PvtRyan]

RJMC I just want to point out that just about everyone here who see's themselves as a "leftist" or left-wing or whatever, they aren't the kind of leftists that worship Castro or Chavez or Stalin or any of that Soviet Super Socialism bollocks.

Well, obviously. No one does, except those men themselves and a small fringe of people around them. Just like no libertarian (I'm going to avoid the term "right-wing" here) is actually for a system where the rich enslave the poor. Yet both sides fear that's what the other side will lead them to.

Me? Can't really say that I have an ideology aside from wanting a society where everyone is free and wealthy in the positive meaning of the word, but as you and I said: both sides want that, everyone wants that. I guess I'm in the middle, but that is not to say I'm some sort of lame fence-sitter, on average I'm in the middle, but that is probably an average of relatively extreme points on both sides. I just look at what we currently have going and I have to say: it kinda works. Is it anywhere near perfect? Obviously not. But that should not be the benchmark, perfection. What we should look for is whether or not it's improving or deteriorating. And everything points to that in most aspects, we're doing better now than at any point in history.

I'm sure you're able to bring many counter-points where we're screwing up badly, but that takes nothing away from the fact that on average, we're all living longer, healthier, easier, freer and wealthier lives. In a bad system, the trend would be downwards, but it's upwards. Hence: the system works, sort of. The talk about political ideologies is nice on a philosophical 'what-if' level, but ultimately worthless as the only two options are incremental improvements to the current system or horrible bloody revolutions based on said political ideology. And they don't work. In the end, what humanity needs to move forward is technological improvements, and the market seems to do decent on that. Everything else is not that important, politics included.

 

[Sulkdodds]

I'm sure you're able to bring many counter-points where we're screwing up badly, but that takes nothing away from the fact that on average, we're all living longer, healthier, easier, freer and wealthier lives.

Well, I think one of the most obvious points on which your post could be attacked lies here, with that problematic "we". "We're all" doing better? Well, fine for us, but what about them? The third world, the dictatorships, a huge part of the world's population?

The other thing is happiness, I guess, and quality of life: what does it mean to have a television and access to buses if your economic position demands that you (for example) work two jobs taking up all your spare time while being offered no hope of advancement, watching others enjoy what you don't have time or money for, and being told it's your fault? I'm not saying the amenities and services we now enjoy are worthless. But as far as I know, the unhappiest countries are not those that are poorest necessarily but those where people are most unequal, those where the contrasts are greatest. Vast inequality is clearly not a problem we've solved - not between countries, and not even within them.

 

[Solaris]

Chaves is a hero, literacy rates, healthcare and quality of life have shot up for the poor under him.

OOO AHHH CHAVEZ NO CE VA

 

[PvtRyan]

Well, I think one of the most obvious points on which your post could be attacked lies here, with that problematic "we". "We're all" doing better? Well, fine for us, but what about them? The third world, the dictatorships, a huge part of the world's population?

I was talking about the whole world. Look it up, child mortality rates are dropping, life expectancy is going up, birth rates are going down and even in the poorest countries the people are getting wealthier [all previous links].

The other thing is happiness, I guess, and quality of life: what does it mean to have a television and access to buses if your economic position demands that you (for example) work two jobs taking up all your spare time while being offered no hope of advancement, watching others enjoy what you don't have time or money for, and being told it's your fault?

Well, that sounds like a problem that people in developing countries would be more than happy to have. When do you actually need two jobs? Not to sustain your basic daily needs, but probably to be able to afford the extras. Those are well and nice, but as you point out below: not a necessity for happiness. I highly disagree with the notion that people should be equal, equal rights and equal worth? Absolutely yes, but everyone having access to niceties beyond daily needs that everyone should have a right to access is just not attainable nor desirable. This might differ per country, but having two low-paying jobs isn't actually very beneficial here as you lose the tax-cut on your second job.

I'm not saying the amenities and services we now enjoy are worthless. But as far as I know, the unhappiest countries are not those that are poorest necessarily but those where people are most unequal, those where the contrasts are greatest. Vast inequality is clearly not a problem we've solved - not between countries, and not even within them.

But it is decreasing. The rich are getting richer, but so are the poor. Economic investments in developing countries work.

 

[Krynn72]

But it is decreasing. The rich are getting richer, but so are the poor. Economic investments in developing countries work.

Is that really a universal experience though? From many interviews seen and articles I've read, most countries are experiencing a growth in the divide between rich and poor.

EDIT: I mean your "but it is decreasing" statement. The poor may technically be getting more wealthy, but that doesn't mean the divide is decreasing at all.

 

[Sparta]

Although it's techinically true about the rich and the poor generally getting richer, the salary gap between the rich and the poor is phenomanally high to the point of ridiculousness.

Sure, everyone's better off, but everyone would be much better off if the average CEO weren't taking home as much as 300 times their average employees wage. CEO wages continue to rise astronomically with each decade, while the average employee wage raises little. Meanwhile, more and more legislation is passed through that favours these people and their companies at the expense of taxpayers.

Look at AIG last year. They helped destroy the global economy and last year handed out 1.2 billion US dollars in bonuses that went to just 72 employees. That's at least 12 million each for helping to screw up the global economy. It's no wonder people get angry at both government and the rich when these things happen.

 

[BabyHeadCrab]

get angry at [strike]both[/strike] government [strike]and the[/strike] rich when these things happen.

What's the difference?

Oooooooooohhhh, dude said what?

 

[CptStern]

if you want to know why I hate the socialist and such well....

when I arrived here in spain

lol spain is socialist

 

[<RJMC>]

lol spain is socialist

yeah tell that to the che tshirt wearing people that hate zapatero so much

 

[CptStern]

yeah tell that to the che tshirt wearing people that hate zapatero so much

well duh! che was marxist, zapatero's partido socialista is as the name implies socialist. marxists are ideologically closer to communism while zapatero's/spain's government is democratic socialism; centre-left