XSI Nightmares

dscowboy

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OK, has anyone else noticed how there is no documentation for XSI EXP? Their 'community page' has a desolate forum and some extrememly high-level tutorials for a lot of features I have no interest in, there's not a whole lot of working XSI tutorials on the whole internet, and they're all crappy... and the Help documentation is completely useless. I can't even find out how to do simple things like select polys by clicking on them instead of having to use a selection box to encompass the whole poly and spend five minutes trying to deselect all the other polys that got in the way. "Edit | Hide Unselected Polys" doesn't even seem to work. When you try to merge two meshes together, it creates a completely new mesh IN EXACTLY THE SAME PLACE AS THE OLD ONES, so unless you think to move your old meshes around, you'll never see the new one. I ended up with 10 different meshes because I kept using the merge function thinking it wasn't working. And get this, when something doesn't work (like trying to weld two points together when you have three selected), it doesn't even tell you that it didn't work. As far as I can tell, the only way to find out is to go to the edit menu and see if your last attempted action is listed as the 'undo' option. Pretty frustrating.

And on top of all that, XSI takes a rediculous amout of time just to do simple things like subdivide A SINGLE POLY. Like 10 - 15 seconds, literally. WTF?

I know there's got to be some real documentation with the full version of XSI. Does anyone have it in PDF format? I know a lot of my problems are just the learning curve, but without any documentation or XSI community (their forums are a joke), it's taking way too long to do very simple things. I started learning XSI under the assumption that with all the half-life tools/integration coming in the HL2 SDK, it will be a lot faster to use than 3DStudio. But it's taking me easily three times as long to accomplish anything.

</rant> So I guess this thread is for people to post any XSI resources/tips they have. While writing this, I finally figured out how to select polys with a click, you have to hit 'u' first. And here is a link to the only site I've found with good XSI info and forums:

http://www.xsibase.com
 
your forgot that you have run it in 1600x1200, which is the reason i don't use it.
 
I'm able to run it in 1280x1024. Not my preferred resolution, but not as bad as 1600x1200. Forcing a resolution on you is pretty lame... and so is the installer not letting you install it to a folder that has a space in it. What the heck?!? I can't even install it to Program Files.

I trust that it's actually a cool program, since Valve seems to like it. But it's clearly not as mature as the major 3d modelers.
 
Wtf?

You have to use 1600x1400?

thats gay, i'll stick to max.
 
no u have to use 1280x1024, anyone who is any good at 3dgraphics uses very high resolutions anyway. Basiclly because its easier to navigate around, because they are so many buttons on 3dgraphics programs its anoying have loads of scrole bars. So people use high resolutions to make things easier. Also peope complain when they have been using 800x600 for ages and go to 1280x1024, but after about 1 day of using it. Then it looks normal and u won;t be able to go back to 800x600 because u notice how terrible it looks.
 
The EXP version is hardly any different than the full version. From the EXP FAQ: http://www.softimage.com/products/exp/v3/faq/

What is the main difference between the EXP and XSI?


There is basically no difference.


All the features and functionality of XSI v3.0 are contained in the EXP, although some limitations are imposed.



What are the limitations?


The main differences are:

The EXP saves scenes to the .exp format, which can only be read by the EXP version.

The EXP only uses only one CPU when rendering.

The export of all data, except scene files, has been blocked.

There is a small watermark in the viewports and rendered images.

The resolution of rendered images is limited.

The 'free' version they'll package with Half-Life will probably be the same thing as XSI EXP, except you'll be able to export to the HL format and the watermark will be removed.
 
i dont know bout the .smd export.
coz if u can export.smd from xsi then u can import it into max and other progs.
i think that a free version wont be shipped with the sdk.
 
Hi all

XSI builds its layouts when first run. Natively the application supports 1280x1024 and 1600x1200. In the full version you can design layouts for any rez above 1024x786.

I haven't checked the latest EXP out in full but I believe this capability is restricted.

You can get around it ...

1. Go to http://www.edharriss.com/xsi/Layout_presets/layouts.htm
2. Choose a collection of layouts you want
3. Download the addon
4. Drag and drop it into an XSI viewport - repeat for every startup
5. Select the layout

--------------------

Polygon modelling- WTF?

XSI doesn't destroy data. When you merge two meshes the sources are kept. This means you can alter the sources and it will updated the merged geometry. If you don't want/need this behavior then just Freeze the model straight after merging. (or work with immed mode on - not good in general)

Quick tip: hold down cntrl to toggle selection. makes selecting the sources easier.

Other useful hotkeys:

u - raycast polys
y - rectangle select polys
i - ray cast edges
e - rectangle select edges
t - tag point
m - move point
holding cntrl starts snapping when moving something
q - render region
h - hide something
s - multi-navigation tool
x - scale
c - rotate
v - translate
n - draw new polygon
\ - add edge
num +/- - play with subdivision surfaces
up arrow - play from start

Remap the keyboard if you wish (I can't remember if this is remembered on restarting XSI)

Other selection modes can be found under Select>Tools on the upper right of the interface.

Simply press a button and see what your status bar says...

check docs for more...
(see below)
--------------------

Polygon Modelling - speed?

XSI is way faster than max. I'd like to see you modelling realtime on a 1.4 million poly mesh in max Worth noting the models for T3 also were designed using XSI prior to being milled.

Do you have a windows keyboard? Yes. Good. Then press that context menu button with a model/poly/edge/vertex selected and you will get a context menu of the available operators. Will make learning much faster.

If you find your operations are slowing down - press freeze.

and finally....

-------------------

Where are the docs?

HTML docs can be found looking in your install directory. Go into EXPWEB\Documention and open _start.htm
(There is a link in the netview popup at start up on the left)

If you want some videos to learn from go to www.3dbuzz.com

There you go.
Anymore, Anymore?

James
 
Just like to add - please take a close look at the fundamentals manual for XSI before jumping into modelling directly.

It explains the working of XSI (which is quite different from MAX). Once you know where everything is, why things work in a certain way and the relationships between scene objects your whole artistic learning process will be much easier.

I am aware that there are few gaming tutorials for XSI. I am working on remeding this at the moment.

For starters though, with normal mapping one can create extremely detailed models for HL2. Build things with as many polys/nurbs as you like - apply all the materials you want as well - the normal map pipeline will allow you to bake all of this information into textures.
You should especially start doing this for people working on map prefabs.
i.e. model high rez - low rez is easy after that.

Take the time to explore for what I expect to be a new area for most mod artists - generating hugely detailed models. I have a chracter with a resonable 400K triangles which I can normal map to 4K. Check out the new feature tours on www.softimage.com for v3.5 for more details.
 
And to answer a couple more gripes...

And get this, when something doesn't work (like trying to weld two points together when you have three selected), it doesn't even tell you that it didn't work.
- look in the bottom left of the interface (as long as your taskbar is hidden) it will display the problem. This is also logged inside the script editor.

the "Weld two points" tool suprisingly ;) only welds two points. "It does exactly as it says on the tin."
You can alternatively use the move point tool (m key) and when you hold down alt it will weld on release.
If you really need to weld more than two points select the edges and collapse those. Should work - let me know if you need an example image.

------

The way I tend to model low rez stuff nowdays is to create a highrez version. Turn on snapping. Draw poly by poly matching the features of the model. I find this method gives me a lot of control over the mesh - now that we are working on ~8K models, you should be aware of modelling technques that will help in enveloping the characters, like more detail around joints and making use of edge loops to define contours of deformation.
I then use the higher level tools to clean up. I can usually create a low rez version in a day using this method. (and create a uv set in half)

-----
When I start a new modelling project I will produce orthographic views of the model in photoshop. I make sure each of the three textures (front, right and top) have an alpha channel. I then create grids of the correct proportion...

x scale of grid = image height / image witdh

The texture is applied using Material>OGL alpha transparency (set culling to none in the OGL Draw node).
Depending on the type of image used, you can get a very flexible starting point.

e.g. http://www.softmonkey.co.uk/downloads/modelling.jpg

Notice the grids are on layers to make turning them off and on easy
-----
BTW - has anyone looked into using the mixer for animation or tried enveloping? Everything in the forums so far seems to be weapon models.

James :monkee:
 
Originally posted by IchI
no u have to use 1280x1024, anyone who is any good at 3dgraphics uses very high resolutions anyway.

/me cries for using 1024x768
 
411 73h c001 p33pz u5x0r 73h 1280 X xxx(x)

Stone Edit:

Leet Translation: All the cool people .......some more rubbish

Please refrain from using the so called leet speech please, for the complatability of all users..thank you
 
1 C4|\| 5|D34|< 1337 +00



Stone Edit:

leet translation: I Can speak leet too,

please refrain from using leet speech please, for the compatability of all users, thank you

and NW909 swearing in leet is still swearing
 
Softmonkey, your help is invaluable, thank you very much, you are right on all counts.
BTW, you should post an image of the normal-mapped 4k character you're working on :D
 
http://www.softimage.com/products/xsi/v3/NFVT/

and go right to the bottom.

In house colabrative effort. You won't be able to do this will the current version of the EXP since this is a new feature for 3.5 of XSI. But follow the workflow and prepare for it ;)

Would anyone be interested in an XSI games modding forum here or on my website?

BTW - has anyone seen the leaked videos from Siggraph showing Alyx inside XSI. Comments?
 
Well, of course its taking you three times as long to do everything, you are just learning. XSI is fundamentally different than MAX.

A few pointers you might find useful:

Under the file menu there is a wee thing called 'keymap'. take a look at that, should prove invaluable while you are learning.

Next thing is look at the toolbars on the right, you will see they are labeled 'get', 'create', 'modify'. They do what they say they do, so when you apply a command from the create bit, it will create a new object.

Now the reason for the create part is that XSI uses relational modelling... you can merge the meshes, but still edit your originals and the merged mesh will recieve the changes. to get rid of the old ones, simply freeze the new one and delete them. This may seem odd at first, but wait till you have played with it a bit.

At the bottom bar on the lower right half of your screen you will find three areas marked L M R. these areas will show you what your mouse buttons will do at any given time. The same area to the left will indicate what tool you are using or what is expected of you.

Hope that helps a bit... shout if you are still having trouble or need more info, those with a bit of XSI experience will be happy to help out.


Erik
 
hi, i have a question for you... i saw that 3.5 have a symetric function in it, but how can i do so everything i do, for example oin the right side of the face happens on the left side as well? ...

thanks :)
 
tbh I think it's just the fact that most poeple in the mod comm aren't used to using these high end 3d packages. XSI is an excellent program, which, like max, can easily take months if not a year to become comfortable with the basic features.
 
Awesome, thank you Aike, Softmonkey, and Nostradamas, this is very helpful.

Softmonkey, your low-poly model looks great. Outlining the high-poly model with snapping on is a good idea. Of course, building the high-poly model is the difficult part, but anyone who doubts the benefits of normal mapping should check out the XSI video pointed to earlier in this thread: http://www.softimage.com/downloadsrv/process.asp?file=/Videos/v35/gpu_mapping.zip

I intend to try eveloping and animating once I have my character done. Should be fairly easy to mimic some of what we saw in the Valve/SIGGRAPH video. My favorite part is how you can play with the facial expression sliders in the HL model viewer. I assume those expressions are just defined as morph targets in XSI. What else was in the video... it looks like the eyes are defined seperately from the rest of the model and are animated dynamically by Source. Oh, did anyone notice what was said about how the skeleton will be converted from XSI to HL2? I'd get a quote from the video but I'm at work. He said something about the number of bones getting automatically reduced. Anyone?

Softmonkey, I'd totally be interested in a games-modding XSI forum. Hopefully this "models and skins" board will become something like that once the SDK is out.
 
I am not sure how much I can say about the rig yet.

I could summarize that XSI allows you to some extremely complex rigging just not possible in most 3D apps. Valve have made use of these capabilities. Their exporter then strips this stuff out on export for source.

Take a look at the biped rig that comes with XSI. (Get>model>Biped Rig) Select the blue box in the foot and rotate it in x - nice! Select the blue hips ant rotate - very nice! Now press F3 - very very nice!

James
 
Nostradamus, to do symmetry you have to activate a symmetry map on the object, then turn the 'Sym' button (on the right side) on before doing your deformations. You can make a symmetry map by selecting the object (or set of points), then using Get > Property > Symmetry Map and specifying the symmetry plane.

Symmetry works on Translate, Rotate, and Scale operations for points, edges, and polys.

EDIT
So select your 'head' object, use Get > Property > Symmetry Map, pick the symmetry plane, turn on the Sym button, and start your deformations.
 
hi, i have a question for you... i saw that 3.5 have a symetric function in it, but how can i do so everything i do, for example oin the right side of the face happens on the left side as well? ...
um.. depends.

The symmetrize operator in XSI 3.5 will take half a mesh and merge it as shown in the NFT vids. It isn't a live operator like u find in v5 of MAX.
But don't dispair - u can simply reorder the stack. There are few ways to do this...

METHOD 1 (FLEXIBLE)
-Apply the symmetrize op.
-Expand your mesh in an explorer and look under your polymesh mode and you should see your newly applied operator.
-Right click on the operator and choose "Disable from here"
-Do your modelling - fell free to freeze those operations once happy
-Right click again on the opperator and choose "Enable from here"

This method also works if you have an envelope on your model - saving having to re-evenlope (skin) from scratch if you want to change the geometry.

METHOD 2 (SIMPLE)
-Apply the symmetrize op
-Expand model as above
-Do your modeling
-Drag'n'drop the symmetrize op onto the top operator in the stack

METHOD 3 (IF WORKING WITH THE EXP)
Nostradamus, to do symmetry you have to activate a symmetry map on the object, then turn the 'Sym' button (on the right side) on before doing your deformations. You can make a symmetry map by selecting the object (or set of points), then using Get > Property > Symmetry Map and specifying the symmetry plane.
This will work, but only if you are moving or deforming points. e.g. an extrusion won't go across

METHOD 4 (BEST IF USING EXP)
-Select your model half
-Edit>Duplicate/Instantiate>Clone single
-Scale the model -1 in x (or whatever appropriate axis)
-model on your original half
-when modelling is finished, select your original and clone and merge together

----
That's a lot of ways of doing the same sort of thing. Obviously the methods in 3.5 are much easier - especially as the symmetrize op preserves UV info.
As a note, methods one and two won't show you the other half until u update the stack. You can combine one of these methods with number 4 i guess, but normally I can't be arsed.

BTW don't worry about this too much, this will all be available to those who don't have 3.5 very soon.

James:monkee:
 
thanks for the answer monkey :)

just a thing..i have not symmatrized it, and well .. it looks all wierd... i have tried to marge it, but nothing have really happened.. thanks for you help again :)
 
well it scrapped it(didn't take that long to make..) but it was like, the places where i had lovere it for, lets say the nose, and lovered for the eyes and such, it didnt fit on the other side at all..kinda wierd...
 
Note to all, the XSI Documentation is well written and VERY helpful. Thanks again to softmonkey for pointing me to it.
 
Originally posted by Nostradamus
thanks for the answer monkey :)

just a thing..i have not symmatrized it, and well .. it looks all wierd... i have tried to marge it, but nothing have really happened.. thanks for you help again :)

Ok a few things mebbe are important. Symmetry map is not a generator, it only mirrors a given operation like moving points. It is very useful for some things, especially beacuse it does NOT need the two sides of the object to be identical. But if you change the geometry in a way that adds new geometry the symmetry map will not duplicate the operation on the other side.

Symmetrize Polygons in 3.5 will do as it says, but remember it is using an axis to work with. Important here is that it will preserve textures and clusters, so if you completely model/texture half an object, this will work.

Now the way I normally work is to build myself a symmetry generator.

to do this, get a cube with 2x2 divisions (or any symmetrical primitive) and delete the left half of the polys so you now have half a cube. Freeze it, then select it and hit edit > duplicate/instantiate > clone single. Transform Scale this new object (which is also half a cube) by -1 in whatever axis to mirror it (usually X). now as you model on the right side, the left follows. at the end (or at any time, thanks to relational modelling) you can simply merge these two meshes and you have a full object. Remember that merging these two, you can either snap the joins or bridge them, and that although the default max distance is 1, you can easily just type in higher values if you find the gap between your objects to be merged is too big.

There are numerous ways of making this method fancier and refining it, but you get the idea.

Happy symmetrizing!

Erik
 
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