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willwittey
Guest
That metaphor has no grounds, it would be as if the salesman stole the car back...
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willwittey
Guest
Im not arguing with you there...the law says its wrong, and I feel Valve should have acted on it by other means, but by Accepting openly payment for a product, promising a product, then breaking the contract after payment and denying product is a Crime. Its theft, He *Tried* to steal from valve (HL2 CD-key), Valve-in return- ultimately Stole from him, an "eye-for-an-eye"? No... More like a "scratch-for-a-mortal-wound". So Valve stole back the product basically, plain and simple... Cabe was unsecessful at his theft, aka "Attempted Theft", but Valve was successful, aka "Theft"... Murder/Attempted Murder, Murder gets the worse charge... Valve owes Cabe 59.99, plain and simple.
B
Battleweary
Guest
Make a new account using your legal cd key and your middle name instead of your first name. Get a different email address, via yahoo or something and register your copy that you bought. That should take care of that problem.
As far as downloading and installing a fake key, that was dumb. What was even dumber was putting your real info into a steam account that you were going to use an illegal key for.
Do you have a pirate copy of Windows on your computer with your real full name and info? Do you click the "Send report" button for errors? Can I have your credit card info and bank account number? Want to buy some prime swamp land in Florida?
As far as downloading and installing a fake key, that was dumb. What was even dumber was putting your real info into a steam account that you were going to use an illegal key for.
Do you have a pirate copy of Windows on your computer with your real full name and info? Do you click the "Send report" button for errors? Can I have your credit card info and bank account number? Want to buy some prime swamp land in Florida?
honestly, it has been stated before, if your account gets banned, you MUST make a new account, because any other cdkeys bound to that account AND additional NEW cdkeys will not be useable either. stop making stupid mistakes, and just do everything the way you are supposed to. sorry to break it to you like this, but its the truth.
btw, im glad that valve is being strict about this type of stuff, im tired of everyone trying to be politically correct and blah blah
SORRY
btw, im glad that valve is being strict about this type of stuff, im tired of everyone trying to be politically correct and blah blah
SORRY
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CastleBravo
Guest
Small problem: if it was your property to start with, IT ISN'T STEALING, numbnuts!
Nothing like the 12-year-old internet mind at work.
Nothing like the 12-year-old internet mind at work.
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cabe
Guest
is this the EULA that the setup program told YOU to read and understand? it's hypocritical of you to fault me for not reading the EULA when YOU haven't even read it! :upstare:Mechagodzilla said:
so if the EULA said something like "we reserve the right to, at any time, kill your family and burn your babies" you wouldn't have any ethical problem with valve doing that? (i mean, since you WOULD have -- lets see how you put it -- a "contractual obligation ... willingly or otherwise" right?) now, while chances are that it's got nothing of the like in there, you don't really know, do you, since you didn't read it, did you!?Mechagodzilla said:
:naughty: but really, let's get back on topic:
and, as i previously posted:Psychx said:
cabe said:
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willwittey
Guest
Well if we want to get Technical about the EULA,
July 10, 2004:: ReliableOne Staffing Services, L.L.C. v. StaffSoft Corporation
was a court decision that The EULA Is not a full contract by law, So *TECHNICALLY* the EULA is not really a 100% valid legal binding contract. It is not even recognized by the courts, it is not binding...AKA Polygraph. Thats a whole different story.
July 10, 2004:: ReliableOne Staffing Services, L.L.C. v. StaffSoft Corporation
was a court decision that The EULA Is not a full contract by law, So *TECHNICALLY* the EULA is not really a 100% valid legal binding contract. It is not even recognized by the courts, it is not binding...AKA Polygraph. Thats a whole different story.
J
Jarm
Guest
I actualy dont understand why his game was disabled... If he used a bad key then cant he create another account with the new key???
Can someone please clarify this for me
Can someone please clarify this for me
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cabe
Guest
a CD key is tied to an account permanently (it cannot be used with another account). disabling the account, in effect, disables all CD keys tied to it.Pi Mu Rho said:
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wobjob
Guest
Dirty_Harry said:
Well buddy,that sounds like a little thing called APARTEID to me,"oh man,someone's not as good as me/doesn't know as much about computers as me/is a little stupid so they deserve to get screwed as big time as they can"
Man,come on,don't you people see it's just really really uncool,and you'd all be mega mega pissed off if it happened to you,so have some sympathy,he's not a bad guy,we all do silly little things,come on,are you all telling me you've never downloaded an mp3,snuck into a movie when you were a kid, or even just skipped school for a day.
All of those have pretty much the same severity as what poor old cabe did,but you don't get punished for those.
Come on man,stop being so cold and think about how you would feel if it happened to you,it might be "his problem" but just admit it's still pretty unfair,and everybody does something wrong at least once in their life.
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wobjob
Guest
and by the way,it's not like i haven't felt the sting of it myself,i spent 4 hours yesterday writing a speech for a debate,i let one of my teammates read it so they could make sure their points were coherent with mine,i was sick that day,so they read MY speech,didn't give me credit for it,and effectively stole my intellectual property,that is a HELL of a lot worse than what happened to Valve when cabe "stole" HL2,at least they got credit for making an awesome game.
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wobjob
Guest
Mechagodzilla said:
Yeah but come on man,if every one read every EULA that came their way,how many of us would have the time to post on this forum?
Go and read the User Agreements for EVERY SINGLE piece of software you've ever bought in your entire life,and then that statement will be justified,otherwise,get off your high horse and get a d**k in your ear
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willwittey
Guest
EULA's are more often than not very genaric, and give suprizing rights to the Vendor that normally would be gastly (As the case with several new releases (Doom 3 being one of them)).
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sonictk
Guest
I have this to say:
You got what you were asking for.
So what if you got a legal copy of the game after that?
It's like saying you bash a guy up, then send him to hospital and patch him up. Does that clear you of your crimes? No.
You got what you were asking for.
So what if you got a legal copy of the game after that?
It's like saying you bash a guy up, then send him to hospital and patch him up. Does that clear you of your crimes? No.
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sonictk
Guest
And besides, it's not as if you're banned forever.
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willwittey
Guest
Its not that hes banned... its that Valve did so after he purchased and activated a product post-violation... they waited for him to buy it then locked the gate to the place where he could use it.
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wobjob
Guest
sonictk said:
nah,dude,it's more like saying you bashed a 6000000 foot high armored robot once with a piece of candy,and then apologised to it.
It wasn't even that much of a crime in the first place.
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nhilanth
Guest
Shoulda uninstalled everything to do with Half life2 before running the reinstall on the new software with the new key. If it still had messed up after doing that then yes, I would say that steam is stepping illegal as its modifying your computer (which is not their property) to hide a file that identifies your computer as having previously had a copy installed then yea they are screwing up bigtime there.
Like the other guy says. Take the copy back to the store, exchange it and make sure EVERY reference to steam or valve are off your computer before making the new account.
That other game you have that is gone because of the disabled account can't be helped, they nicked ya there.
Like the other guy says. Take the copy back to the store, exchange it and make sure EVERY reference to steam or valve are off your computer before making the new account.
That other game you have that is gone because of the disabled account can't be helped, they nicked ya there.
Edge
Newbie
- Joined
- Sep 21, 2003
- Messages
- 686
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- 0
This isn't an ethical debate. You are trolling for attention.
You tried to authenticate a KNOWN pirated CDKEY knowing it was illegal. You got caught and you are claiming you are out $59. You are lucky they didn't use your IP to contact your ISP thus disable your internet connection or finding your ass and throwing you in jail.
You tried to authenticate a KNOWN pirated CDKEY knowing it was illegal. You got caught and you are claiming you are out $59. You are lucky they didn't use your IP to contact your ISP thus disable your internet connection or finding your ass and throwing you in jail.
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cabe
Guest
jaywalking is also against the law. should people be thrown in jail for that, too?
i'm asking if the punishment ($59.11) fits the crime (trying to use an illegal cd key). now, actually, it's not valve's place to punish (we've got the government for that) but i have this feeling that the authorities and my ISP would laugh in valve's face if valve had brought this 'criminal action' to either of them.
you're having trouble distinguishing ethics from the law.
this is definitly an ethical debate, and i'd like to see you try to argue otherwise.
i'm asking if the punishment ($59.11) fits the crime (trying to use an illegal cd key). now, actually, it's not valve's place to punish (we've got the government for that) but i have this feeling that the authorities and my ISP would laugh in valve's face if valve had brought this 'criminal action' to either of them.
you're having trouble distinguishing ethics from the law.
this is definitly an ethical debate, and i'd like to see you try to argue otherwise.
D
d(-_-)b
Guest
I agree with the people here with half a mind, the twerp was trying to steal the game, who gives a shit if he was going to buy it, If he planned on buying it he should have laid his manic ass down and went to sleep, Im happy that valve and steam go to the extent they do to stop hacks cracks and theft, you lay with dogs your gonna get fleas, and if this little punk kid wants to try and steal the game... well all I have to say to him is HAHAHAHA, Llama, And any of you that support him, well your an idiot. and thats the bottom line.
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cabe
Guest
well you see, that's the thing. they didn't stop any theft, because, well, i never stole the game!
also, you don't give any argument as to why you think valve's actions were morally/ethically correct in this matter (which, i should point out, is the whole purpose of this thread). so, i'll ask again:
why do you think it was right of vavle to disable a game which i legitimately own as punishment for trying to steal that very game?
i'll lay it out in sequence:
1)tried to get HL2 with the 'bad' cd key (didn't work)
2)bought HL2 at the store the next day ($59.11)
3)i install and begin to play HL2 (pretty cool game)
4)valve disables account (note how it was done after the game was purchased)
now, if you can explain to me why you think that's ethically right, (without calling anyone a 'twerp,' 'maniac,' 'punk,' or 'idiot') then i'll be more than happy to listen.
also, you don't give any argument as to why you think valve's actions were morally/ethically correct in this matter (which, i should point out, is the whole purpose of this thread). so, i'll ask again:
why do you think it was right of vavle to disable a game which i legitimately own as punishment for trying to steal that very game?
i'll lay it out in sequence:
1)tried to get HL2 with the 'bad' cd key (didn't work)
2)bought HL2 at the store the next day ($59.11)
3)i install and begin to play HL2 (pretty cool game)
4)valve disables account (note how it was done after the game was purchased)
now, if you can explain to me why you think that's ethically right, (without calling anyone a 'twerp,' 'maniac,' 'punk,' or 'idiot') then i'll be more than happy to listen.
M
Moth
Guest
cabe said:
In Valve's eyes, you stole the product key for Half-Life 2
with the intention of playing the game. That's just as bad as stealing the game.
According to the information you outlined above, there was a brief period of time when you DIDN'T OWN THE GAME! ie; before you bought it, as explained in step one above. The fact that you bought the game after you attempted to register the pirated serial which you *KNEW* to be illegal means that you don't have a leg to stand on.
cabe said:well you see, that's the thing. they didn't stop any theft, because, well, i never stole the game!
also, you don't give any argument as to why you think valve's actions were morally/ethically correct in this matter (which, i should point out, is the whole purpose of this thread). so, i'll ask again:
why do you think it was right of vavle to disable a game which i legitimately own as punishment for trying to steal that very game?
i'll lay it out in sequence:
1)tried to get HL2 with the 'bad' cd key (didn't work)
2)bought HL2 at the store the next day ($59.11)
3)i install and begin to play HL2 (pretty cool game)
4)valve disables account (note how it was done after the game was purchased)
now, if you can explain to me why you think that's ethically right, (without calling anyone a 'twerp,' 'maniac,' 'punk,' or 'idiot') then i'll be more than happy to listen.
Why do you continue to post here? You need to contact valve/steam support to get your cd-key on another account. Anything you say here is utterly pointless.
You made a stupid mistake and now you have to face the consequences. Whether its right or wrong you have NO say in it.
And besides, how was valve supposed to know that it was a valid key, instead of some key you found on the internet?
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cabe
Guest
i have already exhcanged my copy of hl2 with a new copy, so i'm now happily playing HL2.Demonmerc said:
i'm not trying to change what happened; i'm looking for others' opinions as to wheater valve acted correctly in this matter.Demonmerc said:
the same way they knew i tried to use the bad key in the first place: their database.Demonmerc said:
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cabe
Guest
following this train of thought, attempted murder must be as bad as murder, right?Moth said:
that's right! and that would have been the correct time for any disciplinary action by valve, yet they chose to wait until i entered the cd key for HL2 -- the very game for which they were punishing me!Moth said:
PS. how do i not have a leg to stand on? does the fact that i entered the bad cd key mean that i lose all credibility and give valve the right to do whatever they want with me? maybe legally, but ethically?
you know you're breaking the law when you go 1mph over the speed limit, but no police officer would ticket you for that minor of an infraction; it's just not worth it! it's not like the bad cd key actually worked! at worst, i used up 1kb of valve's bandwidth when trying to authenticate the key! hah!
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coleco
Guest
I'd just like to remind you guys, you can argue morals and ethics all you want, basically it amounts to nothing more than opinion. What the issue is really about the legal realities.
I'm assuming cabe lives in the states. cabe bought a game. He owns it and can do with it what he wants. This includes hacking it, modifying it and copying it. As long as he's not violating copyrights, he's in the clear. Fair uses laws are very clear on this point. However the DMCA introduces laws to prevent 'curcumvention' and distributing curcumvention methods used to violate copy protections. Basically the point of the DMCA is to prevent people from cracking drm systems then distributing the software or instuctions. It sort of contradicts Fair Use laws but I think the purpose of the law is more to say, give legal recourse to valve against someone that cracks steam and distributes a crack that allows people to people to play it for free.
I'd just like to point out that most people are *not* living in the US, therefore the DMCA does not apply to them. I live in Canada so I'm free to tinker with steam and halflife 2 all I want. This includes using invalid keys or cd-cracks. *As long as I own a copy I can do want I want*, this is very important, as long as I don't illegally distrubute copies.
Next we have the EULA which is the legal wall that valve is leaning on and using to justify disabling accounts, and thereby possibility disabling legally bought games. As has been stated before, a EULAs does not constitute a legally binding contract. The problem with EULAs is that they can put anything in them. In essence a EULA is making you agree that you do not own the code. The problem with the EULA is that the publisher/developer can put anything they want into the EULA, ie, a clause that says "We can do whatever we want to you forever, including blowing up you computer, just because we don't like you." So basically whatever the EULA says is totally irrevelant.
Lets look at the facts so far:
It was illegal for him to own and use a copy of halflife 2 without a licence.
Inside the US it is illegal for him to possess invalid cd-keys and cracks according to the DMCA.
Outside the US, ie, 97% of people, it's okay for to possess and distrubute invalid keys and cd-cracks (local laws apply of course). It's *okay to use them* provided that you own the software. Just like it's okay to possess .mp3s if you own the cd. In Canada it is actually legal to possess unlicenced mp3s provided you don't distribute them. Therefore in Canada you can't be sued for possessing unlicenced mp3s, however you can be sued for distrubing them.
cage now owns a copy of halflife 2 after using an invalid key. The act of using an invalid key itself was not illegal (because EULAs aren't a contract), however the act of possessing and using an unlicenced copy was.
Outside of the US, using and illegal key with a legal copy is perfectly fine. Inside the US, because of the DMCA, I'm not so sure. This is important because if you lose your original key or someone steals it, you may need to use a keygen or crack. Any arguement stating "You're stupid if you lose your key" is totally moot because in my country it's perfectly legal for me the use another key.
Now cage buys a copy and his account is disabled, along with all his valve game keys.
Valve's argument is that it's valid to do this because of the EULA, but of course the EULA is not legally binding so it doesn't matter. What *does* matter is laws that state that you can't sell people a product that is defective or doesn't work. This is why then cage returns the game they are legally required to give him another copy. I'm positive there's a similar law in the US, in Canada, if you buy something new and bring it home and doesn't work, the store has to exchange it for you, no questions asked.
As for the other games that now have their cd-key made invalid, so far there's nothing anywhere that states that they can legally do this, except for the EULA, which doesn't count.
So if cabe liked he could sue valve to get his cd-keys working again. Unfortunately valve has more money and it would cost cabe more money then it's worth to do this. However cabe may want to send some emails and start a class action lawsuit with the thousands of other people that had valid cd-keys disabled.
This is really reason why valve knows they can get away with what they're doing. *Not* because it's legal, because it's not. Valve could easily be sued for what they did. It's because they have lots of money and a fleet of lawyers, and it's not worth cabe's time or money.
The other legal recourse for valve if someone is using an invalid key is to go to the authorities and have you investigated and charged with violating copyrights, or they can take other action through the courts. This is something that valve can do that's totally legal for them. Of course it is expensive to go to court with 20000 people, which is why they opted for the questionable option. The RIAA is doing this anyway, and valve may choose to do it in the future. In that case you have the right to defend yourself, and prove that you were using an invalid key because you lost your key, which is really the point of innocent until proven guilty, and why valve doesn't have the legal right to summarily take punitive action against people. *Because they are not the law and they are not the court system*
So moral arugments aside, basically might makes right, valve was more money so they can do what they want.
Not, I'm not for pirating. But why people insist on defending rich companies that take licence in violating civil rights and privacy laws to mantain profit margin I'll never understand. They do not give a shit about you. They just want your money. Just remember that these companies are pushing and lobbying all the time. One day your computer may be illegal because of the possibility that you *could* copy something with it.
Discussion over, I'm out of here.
I'm assuming cabe lives in the states. cabe bought a game. He owns it and can do with it what he wants. This includes hacking it, modifying it and copying it. As long as he's not violating copyrights, he's in the clear. Fair uses laws are very clear on this point. However the DMCA introduces laws to prevent 'curcumvention' and distributing curcumvention methods used to violate copy protections. Basically the point of the DMCA is to prevent people from cracking drm systems then distributing the software or instuctions. It sort of contradicts Fair Use laws but I think the purpose of the law is more to say, give legal recourse to valve against someone that cracks steam and distributes a crack that allows people to people to play it for free.
I'd just like to point out that most people are *not* living in the US, therefore the DMCA does not apply to them. I live in Canada so I'm free to tinker with steam and halflife 2 all I want. This includes using invalid keys or cd-cracks. *As long as I own a copy I can do want I want*, this is very important, as long as I don't illegally distrubute copies.
Next we have the EULA which is the legal wall that valve is leaning on and using to justify disabling accounts, and thereby possibility disabling legally bought games. As has been stated before, a EULAs does not constitute a legally binding contract. The problem with EULAs is that they can put anything in them. In essence a EULA is making you agree that you do not own the code. The problem with the EULA is that the publisher/developer can put anything they want into the EULA, ie, a clause that says "We can do whatever we want to you forever, including blowing up you computer, just because we don't like you." So basically whatever the EULA says is totally irrevelant.
Lets look at the facts so far:
It was illegal for him to own and use a copy of halflife 2 without a licence.
Inside the US it is illegal for him to possess invalid cd-keys and cracks according to the DMCA.
Outside the US, ie, 97% of people, it's okay for to possess and distrubute invalid keys and cd-cracks (local laws apply of course). It's *okay to use them* provided that you own the software. Just like it's okay to possess .mp3s if you own the cd. In Canada it is actually legal to possess unlicenced mp3s provided you don't distribute them. Therefore in Canada you can't be sued for possessing unlicenced mp3s, however you can be sued for distrubing them.
cage now owns a copy of halflife 2 after using an invalid key. The act of using an invalid key itself was not illegal (because EULAs aren't a contract), however the act of possessing and using an unlicenced copy was.
Outside of the US, using and illegal key with a legal copy is perfectly fine. Inside the US, because of the DMCA, I'm not so sure. This is important because if you lose your original key or someone steals it, you may need to use a keygen or crack. Any arguement stating "You're stupid if you lose your key" is totally moot because in my country it's perfectly legal for me the use another key.
Now cage buys a copy and his account is disabled, along with all his valve game keys.
Valve's argument is that it's valid to do this because of the EULA, but of course the EULA is not legally binding so it doesn't matter. What *does* matter is laws that state that you can't sell people a product that is defective or doesn't work. This is why then cage returns the game they are legally required to give him another copy. I'm positive there's a similar law in the US, in Canada, if you buy something new and bring it home and doesn't work, the store has to exchange it for you, no questions asked.
As for the other games that now have their cd-key made invalid, so far there's nothing anywhere that states that they can legally do this, except for the EULA, which doesn't count.
So if cabe liked he could sue valve to get his cd-keys working again. Unfortunately valve has more money and it would cost cabe more money then it's worth to do this. However cabe may want to send some emails and start a class action lawsuit with the thousands of other people that had valid cd-keys disabled.
This is really reason why valve knows they can get away with what they're doing. *Not* because it's legal, because it's not. Valve could easily be sued for what they did. It's because they have lots of money and a fleet of lawyers, and it's not worth cabe's time or money.
The other legal recourse for valve if someone is using an invalid key is to go to the authorities and have you investigated and charged with violating copyrights, or they can take other action through the courts. This is something that valve can do that's totally legal for them. Of course it is expensive to go to court with 20000 people, which is why they opted for the questionable option. The RIAA is doing this anyway, and valve may choose to do it in the future. In that case you have the right to defend yourself, and prove that you were using an invalid key because you lost your key, which is really the point of innocent until proven guilty, and why valve doesn't have the legal right to summarily take punitive action against people. *Because they are not the law and they are not the court system*
So moral arugments aside, basically might makes right, valve was more money so they can do what they want.
Not, I'm not for pirating. But why people insist on defending rich companies that take licence in violating civil rights and privacy laws to mantain profit margin I'll never understand. They do not give a shit about you. They just want your money. Just remember that these companies are pushing and lobbying all the time. One day your computer may be illegal because of the possibility that you *could* copy something with it.
Discussion over, I'm out of here.
H
Hoonose
Guest
coleco said:
Just the beginning, if we give in to it. Valve's like a promiscuous bitch: Give her an inch and she'll want 8!
When Doom 4 and Half Life 3 come out, which you gunna buy?
C
cabe
Guest
i agree. by the way some people talk about valve you'd think they're defending their religion or something! now i'm not saying valve is the antichrist or anything, but it's certainly not the next messiah like some people make it out to be..coleco said:
(valve is a single entity, note how i used Vavle is; not Valve are! [there isn't more than one valve, is there]
)
R
Rustman
Guest
Although I'm loathe to resurrect this topic and all its legal and ethical trials and tribulations I have just bought two copies of Half-Life 2 (it's a mate's birthday coming up) as I thought it would be nice to play with a friend online.
Now, here's my ethical conundrum. Within the last 6 months I have lent the PC I will be using to a younger cousin, who I have no doubt stuck one or two dodgy titles on it given to him by his mates. Although I'm not 100% certain that Half Life 2 was amongst these games (but given the amount he was talking about it, it is likely) I'm now concerned that something may be lurking on my machine that will incriminate me with Steam and ban my newly bought game.
I know the logical answer would be to do a completely fresh reinstall of Windows, but I've spent the best part of a month tidying up the mess he made and I'm happy with my setup.
What does Steam look for when an illegal key has been used? Is it just bad files (in which case, what am I looking for and where does Steam look), or is the computer's ID logged and banned? I would like to make sure that I am not wrongly banned as I am definetely one of the good guys.
TIA.
Now, here's my ethical conundrum. Within the last 6 months I have lent the PC I will be using to a younger cousin, who I have no doubt stuck one or two dodgy titles on it given to him by his mates. Although I'm not 100% certain that Half Life 2 was amongst these games (but given the amount he was talking about it, it is likely) I'm now concerned that something may be lurking on my machine that will incriminate me with Steam and ban my newly bought game.
I know the logical answer would be to do a completely fresh reinstall of Windows, but I've spent the best part of a month tidying up the mess he made and I'm happy with my setup.
What does Steam look for when an illegal key has been used? Is it just bad files (in which case, what am I looking for and where does Steam look), or is the computer's ID logged and banned? I would like to make sure that I am not wrongly banned as I am definetely one of the good guys.
TIA.
It's usually account based, so if your using an account that has an illiegal cd key it will get you banned, if you are using a clean account then it's all good.
I would email valves tech support, or do a full reinstall even though you don't want to.
I would email valves tech support, or do a full reinstall even though you don't want to.
R
Rustman
Guest
^Ben said:
Thanks for responding ^Ben. I take it that only Valve knows what it would call incriminating evidence lurking on my hard drive?
I do already have a Steam account with older titles in (Half Life, Opposing Force, DOD). Would you consider it wise to use a different account name with my Half Life 2 when it arrives and then move the older games to the new account when I find Half Life 2 is happy?
I have just downloaded and successfully installed the HL2 demo. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a multiplayer function to properly test if my machine is clean, but it did create a new account quite happily and download quite a lot of patches for the demo.
I wonder if this means I'm going to be ok. I do hope so. If only I knew what it is that blacklists you. If I did then I could install in confidence in a few days time.
