Arab ministers in Israel for land-for-peace talks

[Nemesis6]

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Two Arab envoys on a landmark visit to Israel presented its leaders with a regional land-for-peace plan on Wednesday and called for a rapid timetable for talks with the Palestinians over statehood.

Israel described the one-day visit by the Jordanian and Egyptian foreign ministers as a "historic" move on the part of the 22-nation Arab League. But it stopped short of embracing their initiative, which offers a comprehensive Arab peace if the Jewish state cedes all occupied land and meets other demands.

Reaching out to the Palestinians and Arab states, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert sent the clearest signal yet that he would try to restart talks on the final status of a Palestinian state with President Mahmoud Abbas, whose secular Fatah faction lost control of the Gaza Strip last month to Hamas Islamists.

"We need a precise timetable, a quick timetable and we urge Israel not to waste this historic opportunity. Time is not on our side," Jordanian Foreign Minister Abdelelah al-Khatib told a news conference at the Israeli Foreign Ministry in Jerusalem.

Egyptian Foreign Minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit said it was not sufficient for Israel to limit talk to what diplomats call a "political horizon" -- defined by Olmert's aides as the legal, economic and governmental structures of a future Palestinian state. "I don't see (that) as enough because the horizon, often if not frequently, is never reached," he said.

Olmert said there was "a chance in the near future for the process to ripen into talks that would, in effect, deal with the stages of establishing a Palestinian state."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070725/ts_nm/palestinians_israel_dc

Historic opportunity... like the Camp David accords? Oh wait, you blew that one. Another thing: Why the hell do the Arabs keep pretending to care about the Palestinians? They are the ones keeping the conflict going.

 

[Icarusintel]

Posting in a thread bound to cause debates using more opinions than facts.

 

[No Limit]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070725/ts_nm/palestinians_israel_dc

Historic opportunity... like the Camp David accords? Oh wait, you blew that one. Another thing: Why the hell do the Arabs keep pretending to care about the Palestinians? They are the ones keeping the conflict going.

Nemesis disagreeing with a plan to create middle east peace. Who'da thunk it?

 

[Pulse]

Posting in a thread bound to cause debates using more opinions than facts.

...you expect anything else on this forum?

 

[Nemesis6]

Nemesis disagreeing with a plan to create middle east peace. Who'da thunk it?

I don't want to believe that you live inside the little fairyland where giving the Palestinians land actually helps, but your comment implies that you do... So I don't know, you can stay in there with Jimmy Carter I guess.

They got Gaza, and it was turned into one big hunk of Islamist anarchy. They obviously don't really care that much about their land, anyway, so why give them more? Giving the Palestinians more land = telling the terrorists that their methods work. It's the same way in Iraq: The more car-bombings, killings, etc, are covered in the media, the thicker the resolve for the terrorists to keep on killing.

Before discussion about giving land away can even occur, the Palestinians need to be held accountable for their in-fighting. This is where the entire progress comes to a grinding hold when some dumbass starts ranting that it's the fault of the "occupation" and "siege-mentality". We've infantilized the Palestinians so much that we in the West have absolutely no contructive part to play in any progress towards peace between the Israelis and the Arabs anymore.

So I think you'll find that I'm not against peace, but rather, I'm against people who think they know what peace is. In other words, peace != burrying your head in the sand and throwing as many gifts as you can at your enemy.

 

[<RJMC>]

so,no peace for that brown people?

 

[Nemesis6]

Nope. Not yet.

 

[<RJMC>]

and since when you care for that brown people?

 

[No Limit]

So I think you'll find that I'm not against peace, but rather, I'm against people who think they know what peace is. In other words, peace != burrying your head in the sand and throwing as many gifts as you can at your enemy.

Nemesis, come on dude, you aren't fooling anyone. You know as well as I do that your idea of peace in that region is allow Israel to do anything they want while the brown people shut the **** up about it.

And you are absolutely right, they don't know what to do with the land. Saudi Arabia is not the current business captiol of the world. Lebanon was never a prime tourism destination. And the palestines live in shit not because of anything Israel has done, instead its because they don't know how to run their land. You obviously win this one yet again.

In addition I have strong doubts that you've even read the back cover of Carter's book so do yourself a favor and don't assume anything about it. I don't know if you've learned yet but when you do that you make a total ass out of yourself.

 

[Absinthe]

As nice as this all sounds, it's not going to be tenable until the Palestinians take care of their own internal quarreling and some of the rogue elements give up their goal of wiping Israel off the map.

The Palestinians need to have a unified voice on this. That's difficult to obtain if one group is in peace talks while another launches missiles across the border.

 

[Lt. Drebin]

The Palestinians need to have a unified voice on this. That's difficult to obtain if one group is in peace talks while another launches missiles across the border.

Done. The discussions end RIGHT here, as they always do. It's pretty ridiculous...the world keeps waiting for this unified voice that never seems to materialize.

 

[No Limit]

As nice as this all sounds, it's not going to be tenable until the Palestinians take care of their own internal quarreling and some of the rogue elements give up their goal of wiping Israel off the map.

The Palestinians need to have a unified voice on this. That's difficult to obtain if one group is in peace talks while another launches missiles across the border.

By all means that's true but wouldn't it make sense to at least settle your score with one group and then move on to the next. Waiting until 2 different groups agree before you do anything seems extremely counter productive.

 

[Lt. Drebin]

By all means that's true but wouldn't it make sense to at least settle your score with one group and then move on to the next. Waiting until 2 different groups agree before you do anything seems extremely counter productive.

You at least need all groups agreeing on peaceful solution of some measure or another. What good does a peace do when a sizable percentage of the populace disagrees and continues it's violent measures. What makes it difficult is the large number of extremist groups that want NOTHING to do with peace...only the eradication of Israel. These various factions continue to do the Palestinian people a great disservice.

 

[No Limit]

You at least need all groups agreeing on peaceful solution of some measure or another. What good does a peace do when a sizable percentage of the populace disagrees and continues it's violent measures. What makes it difficult is the large number of extremist groups that want NOTHING to do with peace...only the eradication of Israel. These various factions continue to do the Palestinian people a great disservice.

So if you could eliminate 50% of the violance you wouldn't want to do it because you can't eliminate 100% of it? How does that make any sense?

Terrorism will be a part of our lives for a very long time. John Kerry said it best in 2004 when he said its a matter of law enforcement. It's no different than homocide or drunk driving. You should always strive to have less of it but in the end you will never be able to remove it completely. He was constantly insulted by the right wing for saying that and then 3 years later Bush pretty much said the exact same thing.

 

[Lt. Drebin]

So if you could eliminate 50% of the violance you wouldn't want to do it because you can't eliminate 100% of it? How does that make any sense?

If the goal is to eliminate the violence, exactly what does a half-ass peace treaty not involving all Palestinian militant groups solve?? It won't eliminate 50% of the violence...it probably won't eliminate 30%. The problem is simply that most of these groups have demands that will/can never be met...the destruction of Israel. Further, how does that stop the flow of Arabs from other countries coming in, not fighting for Palestinian land, but for, again, Israel's destruction.

You need that unified voice to tell the militants that negotiating for what we want, peacefully, is the only way to go. And, further, the ones fighting merely to destroy Israel need to go and are doing the Palestinian people a disservice by remaining. Israel is going to remain, and we need to learn to live peacefully with our neighbors. Anything less is a false peace that will fall apart as it has done so every other time it's been struck. If you don't have all of these groups involved, it's half-assed and guaranteed to fail.

 

[No Limit]

So you don't think Israel should try to correct their wrongs at all since there will still be violance?

You say it probably won't change much today, well yeah, I totally agree with you there. But continuing to keep that land occupied indefinitely will never bring the stop to that violance.

Like I said above, Israel will have to deal with the terrorist threat for a very long time, just like we will have to deal with it. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't start working to minimize that thread today, the longer you wait the worse it becomes.

And in the end terrorism will probably not end in our lifetime, just like murders, DUIs, or drug addiction won't end. Terrorism was proven to be extremely effective when you don't have the weapons to challange ours so that thread will be there for as long as we remain a super power, it doesn't mean we should let that threat affect our judgement. And good judgement in this case for Israel would be to start making amends for the wrongs that they have done.

 

[hydrometeor]

The Israel-Arab conflict might only end when one side gains complete dominance over the other. If any peace talks work and actually last, it will mostly be due to luck.

 

[No Limit]

The Israel-Arab conflict might only end when one side gains complete dominance over the other.

Why do you say that?

You don't think if palestanians got the west bank and the gaza strip completely back with no conditions you would be able to eliminate most of the violance? Most palestanians are happy to keep the west bank and the gaza strip. Sure, some will still want the destruction of Israel, lots do, but nothing you do will change that for a long time. So get used to it. But when you have the perfect opportunity to start making amends and end a good fraction of the violance why the hell not go for it?

 

[Nemesis6]

So you don't think Israel should try to correct their wrongs at all since there will still be violance?

I'm curious: What wrongs are you talking about?

 

[No Limit]

I'm curious: What wrongs are you talking about?

To make it easy on me I'll just use stern's stuff.

1947

http://z.about.com/f/wiki/e/en/9/97/UN_Partition_Plan_For_Palestine_1947.png

Now

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/conflict/images/israel_map.gif

I'll save you some time and just let you concentrate on that, no reason to get in to what happened in Lebanon last summer as that has been discussed plenty.

 

[Nemesis6]

Those are stupid points. Here's why: In 1948, the Arab countries try to destroy Israel. Israel drives them back, and takes territory used by the Arabs in the war. One thing you conveniently forget is that the Arabs stole the West Bank(Jordan) and the Gaza Strip(Egypt). This was not an issue for the Palestinians untill ISRAEL took them after they were used as springboards into Israel when King Hussein of Jordan attacked Israel through the West Bank. It's interesting to note that the PLO was formed in 1964. At this time, the West Bank was under Jordanian control, and not one complaint was lodged at King Hussein. But when Israel took these territories when Jordan attacked it, well, take a wild guess.
Another interesting thing to note is that the Palestinians already have their state. It was created by the U.N, and was called Trans-Jordan. Trans means that it's on the other side of the Jordan river. When they took the West bank, it became Jordan. "Palestinian state" is a misnomer since it would be the second one. In all the years the Arabs occupied the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, they could have made a Palestinian state at any given time. Surprising that they didn't, isn't it? Even Qaddafi -- may his spellings be many -- told them this.

Weak attempt on your part. Showing how things once were geographically and how things are now with absolutely no contextual information. On that matter, I could show you a map of Germany over the last 200 years and blame anyone I want. Your logic is that faulty. You simply don't prove anything. Apparently, I know just a little more about this than you do, judging by your post.

 

[Lt. Drebin]

So you don't think Israel should try to correct their wrongs at all since there will still be violance?

The ones that cause the most problems for Israel, could care less about the West Bank and Gaza Strip. So, correcting their wrong, ie, giving back the Palestinian territory they hold, would solve little.

Let me ask you this, what do you think will happen if Israel pulls out of the two territories completely. No questions asked?? Without a united Palestinian voice you'd have Arab militants from all over the Middle East, not that they're not there already, using those territories as a sping board to bring their war right to Israel. Simply giving the land back will do nothing without almost all of the Paletinian populace on board. I'd venture to say the violence may intensify.

So, in reality, they hold the territories until Palestine can get their act together. Basically doing nothing...or, nothing different, now.

What Israel can do is help the Palestinian people a little more in efforts to unite them against the hordes of extremists in their area...perhaps in return for their land. Perhaps assurances that they will not allow their land to be a sprinboard for attacks on Israel. The burdens of ending this conflict CANNOT rest squarely on the shoulders of Israel.

 

[No Limit]

Weak attempt on your part. Showing how things once were geographically and how things are now with absolutely no contextual information. On that matter, I could show you a map of Germany over the last 200 years and blame anyone I want. Your logic is that faulty. You simply don't prove anything. Apparently, I know just a little more about this than you do, judging by your post.

What context do you need? Israel took that land in the six-day war, a war that they started.

Of course there were arabs against the state of Israel, Israel claimed land that wasn't technically theirs. But the vast majority of violance didn't start until they took over the gaza strip and the west bank.

 

[Nemesis6]

Israel was within full right to attack. The Arab armies were massing their armies at its borders for an attack, and that's why Israel attacked them. Next, The Arabs and the Israelis throats long before Israel liberated the Gaza Strip from the Egyptians and the West Bank from the Jordanians.
Finally, Israel didn't claim any land that wasn't theirs. Now you have to tell me about this land that wasn't theirs. What are you referring to this time?

 

[No Limit]

Israel was within full right to attack. The Arab armies were massing their armies at its borders for an attack, and that's why Israel attacked them. Next, The Arabs and the Israelis throats long before Israel liberated the Gaza Strip from the Egyptians and the West Bank from the Jordanians.
Finally, Israel didn't claim any land that wasn't theirs. Now you have to tell me about this land that wasn't theirs. What are you referring to this time?

Israel liberated the Gaza strip and the west bank? I guess that you also still call our occupation of Iraq a liberation?

To answer you second question. Are you trying to say transjordan was Israel's land? And if you want to explain this by saying the UN allowed Israel to take that land then you also have to explain why Jerusalem is not currently controlled by the UN because that was one of the original conditions to give that land to Israel, wasn't it?

 

[Nemesis6]

Israel liberated the Gaza strip and the west bank? I guess that you also still call our occupation of Iraq a liberation?

To answer you second question. Are you trying to say transjordan was Israel's land? And if you want to explain this by saying the UN allowed Israel to take that land then you also have to explain why Jerusalem is not currently controlled by the UN because that was one of the original conditions to give that land to Israel, wasn't it?

Here's the deal: Considering that Egypt took the Gaza Strip and Trans-Jordan took the West Bank after 1948 and used them to attack Israel from, losing those in the process, they really have no argument to call any of these place their own if the Israelis disagree. They got Gaza for themselves, and look at they did with the place. Yeah, give them back the rest of the territory they used to try annihilating the Jews from. The Arabs had their chance with the territories when they stole them from the Palestinians. In all that time they used attacking Israel, they could have made this second Palestinian state on these two areas -- the West Bank and Gaza -- but for some abstract reason they didn't.

 

[ehudyoda]

Mis-use of logic

...
Why do you say that?
You don't think if palestanians got the west bank and the gaza strip completely back with no conditions you would be able to eliminate most of the violance? ...

Hi No Limit,
I've pretty much enjoyed reading your posts,
But, as many other far-away-people, I think your beneficial use of logic lacks the connection for real-life events & measures. For example:

1. Claiming (and fighting) for a 20 Km stretch near home and for a 500Km stretch oversees doesn't hold any kind of resembles.
The first is defending your home & the second is colonialism.

2. Israel started the six days war? Okay, a little analogy, what would you do if three angry, big men came at your door step and shouted through the door:
"We're gonna kill you and your whole family, open up!"
What would you do? Call 911? I would use a shotgun through the door (If I had one)

3. The violence didn't start AFTER Israel took Gaza & West Bank.
Review your history lessons.
The Arab nations (there were no Palestinians back then) did not settle for you lovely 1947 map.

4. Try being a little bit more humble ?
analyzing (& understanding) Palestinian groups: religion, motivation, etc. Takes a bit more then few thread notes.

5. Try not to judge events & people in your own eyes.
When religion is involved, it?s a very different equation. Especially religion fanatics.
I've posted a thread earlier, take a look.

Anyways, I can continue til the end of time probably but I have an important exam tomorrow ('Operating Systems').
Logic is an important tool, try not to misuse it.
c ya.

 

[hydrometeor]

Why do you say that?

You don't think if palestanians got the west bank and the gaza strip completely back with no conditions you would be able to eliminate most of the violance? Most palestanians are happy to keep the west bank and the gaza strip. Sure, some will still want the destruction of Israel, lots do, but nothing you do will change that for a long time. So get used to it. But when you have the perfect opportunity to start making amends and end a good fraction of the violance why the hell not go for it?

Many (most?) Muslims would like to see all of Israel disappear and have an Islamic state established in that land. Israelis don't want to lose their land. It is an irreconcilable situation. I guess compromise is possible (such as Israel relinquishing the Gaza strip), but I find it unlikely that it'll prevent future conflics.

 

[No Limit]

ehudyoda, for your first point.

What solution do you see to this problem without Israel giving in and giving the west bank and the gaza strip back to palestine? Do you not think you will have to do this sooner or later anyway. I am not disputing that doing this will not make a huge difference in the violance right away but it will give them less reasons to be so pissed off at you. This first step has to be taken to have a serious peace plan. You call this occupation defense, defense from what? What improvement in your safety has this occupation achieved?

2. Israel started the six days war? Okay, a little analogy, what would you do if three angry, big men came at your door step and shouted through the door:
"We're gonna kill you and your whole family, open up!"
What would you do? Call 911? I would use a shotgun through the door (If I had one)

Really your anology should go more like this:

If 3 midgets came to your door, armed with sticks, yellings we're gonna kill you what would you, a 250LB man armed with a .45 and a 12 gauge shot gun, do?

3. The violence didn't start AFTER Israel took Gaza & West Bank.
Review your history lessons.
The Arab nations (there were no Palestinians back then) did not settle for you lovely 1947 map.

I am not claiming it started the violance. I am claiming it escalated it.

I would address your other points but what I get from them is you pretty much calling me an idiot that doesn't understand the world around him. Instead of me replying to that lets just skip the insults and instead let me ask you to address the points above.

Good luck on your exam.

 

[No Limit]

Deleted: Double post, site was down.

 

[ehudyoda]

ehudyoda, for your first point.

What solution do you see to this problem without Israel giving in and giving the west bank and the gaza strip back to palestine? Do you not think you will have to do this sooner or later anyway. I am not disputing that doing this will not make a huge difference in the violance right away but it will give them less reasons to be so pissed off at you. This first step has to be taken to have a serious peace plan. You call this occupation defense, defense from what? What improvement in your safety has this occupation achieved?


Really your anology should go more like this:

If 3 midgets came to your door, armed with sticks, yellings we're gonna kill you what would you, a 250LB man armed with a .45 and a 12 gauge shot gun, do?


I am not claiming it started the violance. I am claiming it escalated it.

I would address your other points but what I get from them is you pretty much calling me an idiot that doesn't understand the world around him. Instead of me replying to that lets just skip the insults and instead let me ask you to address the points above.

Good luck on your exam.

First of all, I'm sorry if it came out as aninsults.

Yes I do think (sounds to me) you rely more on your 'western-logic' then the human nature.
People in general tend to do so.
People around the world have different attitudes in the most basic sense of the word.
But still we are used to judge them in our own sets of laws/moral/ideology.

Getting back to my little analogy (or actually yours), Get back to the history books:

'3 midgets': wrong, full battalions of the Jordanian,Syrian & Egyptian armies at our door step.
250LB man ( lol ): wrong again, In the 60s the Israeli army was based on a more European fire power & the numbers were much lower.
I don't remember the soldier & armor ratio between Israeli army and neighboring armies, but, you can guess.

"?escalated it?"?
Well, when the former Arab leaders talked about the destruction of Israel on a daily basis (today too!)
your point become more philosophical then practical.
So I get back to the point (sorry) that your detached point of view has a more logical/philosophical notion more than any other aspect.

Or in my own simple words:
"They are saying they are coming to get me and I f***ing escalated IT ? one of us is living on Mars"

Again, didn't mean to offend in any way.
Other than that, check your history books.
(Thanks on the exam)

 

[No Limit]

That's all nice but you still haven't anwsered the basic question, what do you think Israel will have to do on their end to start the peace process or is your basic idea that they shouldn't do a damn thing and instead pray to whoever they pray to that the violance just magically slows down one day?

'3 midgets': wrong, full battalions of the Jordanian,Syrian & Egyptian armies at our door step.
250LB man ( lol ): wrong again, In the 60s the Israeli army was based on a more European fire power & the numbers were much lower.
I don't remember the soldier & armor ratio between Israeli army and neighboring armies, but, you can guess.

Yes, those poor jews. They were so weak it took them an entire 6 days to defeat all those armies and tripple their land mass. But then again when you are backed by the US, which in the 1960s they were, its pretty easy to be the big bully of the region.

Also find it odd you don't mention anything about Israel's offensive attacks leading up to the six day war in 1965 and 1966.

Sure, egypt was eventually threatening military action but others weren't so eager to go along. The united states which funded much of your army even back then told you there could have been a diplomatic solution to that conflict. You decided to attack anyway.

Well, when the former Arab leaders talked about the destruction of Israel on a daily basis (today too!)
your point become more philosophical then practical.
So I get back to the point (sorry) that your detached point of view has a more logical/philosophical notion more than any other aspect.

So what? Jerusalem has been the scene of fighting for thousands of years. You think that will change now that you've taken that land? Of course they are pissed off, this land was theirs until Turkey lost its empire. Then you swooped in and made the land your holy land against what the international community wanted (remember that whole thing about jerusalem being under UN control?). And now you want all those pissed off arabs to just forgive and forget while you continue to occupy or at least try to occupy more land from them on a routine basis?

So please stop talking in that condesending "you need a history book" tone because it is really starting to piss me off. What you need is to look at this objectively from history books outside of your country. Your people aren't so innocent in this conflict, until you realize that, this shit will continue to happen.

 

[Tick]

look at the crusader states and what happened to them,then you know what will happen Israel.

 

[hydrometeor]

look at the crusader states and what happened to them,then you know what will happen Israel.

It is a completely different situation. The Muslim empire was very powerful during that time.

So what? Jerusalem has been the scene of fighting for thousands of years. You think that will change now that you've taken that land?

Actually the fighting was quite sporadic during those thousands of years and not continuous.

 

[No Limit]

Actually the fighting was quite sporadic during those thousands of years and not continuous.

And you call what is happening today continuous? Its just another phase in a long history of violance and it will continue.

 

[Lt. Drebin]

What solution do you see to this problem without Israel giving in and giving the west bank and the gaza strip back to palestine? Do you not think you will have to do this sooner or later anyway. I am not disputing that doing this will not make a huge difference in the violance right away but it will give them less reasons to be so pissed off at you. This first step has to be taken to have a serious peace plan. You call this occupation defense, defense from what? What improvement in your safety has this occupation achieved?

The solution is quite obvious, still. You need Palestinians united as a people. Having a "real" Palestinian govt would be a start...at the very least to provide some common direction. Again, Israel is not without fault here, but the majority of this burden to resolve the conflict rests in Palestine...they need to get their act together and become a unified people.

Here's what you don't do...you don't give back land to a disfunctional hodge podge of groups...some of which want nothing more than your destruction. If Palestine is not united, you've simply given your enemies a springboard to accomplish their goals. Violence against Israel continues and most likely intensifies since you no longer have an occupying force in these unstable regions.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Nemesis disagreeing with a plan to create middle east peace. Who'da thunk it?

I think only No Limit, but then again I could be wrong.

Personal Aside: I think Nemisis is just a bit hazy on this new "peace deal", because as it winds up, sides exchange prisoners then resume fighting.