Challenging = fun?

[Cheomesh]

Someone on steam chat and I where talking about a mod where you play as a resistance member at some point in the HL2 saga (probably during Ep 2's events, fighting a retreating unit of Combine, if around C17 at all).

I was wondering if making this challenging would make it fun?

I figure, since the player is a resistance member, he might not have all the niceness of features in the HEV suit.

By this I mean something like this:

*No HEV voice
*Max of 25 charge units
*Weapon carry limit
*Slower but much less limited sprint
*No anti-toxin


Would it still be "fun"? It would be a short mod, maybe one focusing on story.

 

[Asknoone]

Would it be fun? Absolutely impossible question. The basics the HEV suit provides are simple and to the point; that in itself makes it fun. I don't think radically changing any of that would make your game better, because on the whole it's a superficial proposal anyway, and certainly not where you would want to start in bringing new stuff forward. Challenge doesn't make something "fun". How good your actual gameplay is does.

That said if you're serious about it I don't see why you can't give it a shot. Challenging in itself isn't something you can just apply to anything. If all your game is is combat, combat, combat – and by that I mean a Halo style shooting gallery in which you do nothing more whatsoever than shoot bad guys, then yes I think re-adjusting those kind of things is a step forward. On the whole though the concept of a shooting gallery isn't interesting, so you're going to want to try for a more Half-life approach and make your gameplay innovative, varied and ever-changing. Those kinds of things you mentioned are more in tune with combat, I think. It's about moving beyond that kind of thing.

But then, it's a mod. Experiment. Nobody can answer the question "is it fun" unless you go out, make it and test it.

 

[Cheomesh]

Well, it's a mod where you play as a Resistance member; of course there is going to be combat. I thought it was blatantly obvious that I was discussing combat style stuff, because I've yet to have one good thread on any forum about "story building in game"; as to that, I was going to see about how I can script conversations between multiple members in a room.

 

[Asknoone]

Combat is only an aspect of gameplay; it isn't gameplay itself.

 

[Cheomesh]

Combat is only an aspect of gameplay; it isn't gameplay itself.

...Yes. And I was talking about Combat.

 

[Asknoone]

Well I've played it with a weapon carry limit and it's not that fun. I think you can play with difficulty without having to really change those things. I mean, it's like saying to the player "Ok, I'm going to cripple you to make the game harder", when you could tweak the gameplay scenarios themselves so that they present a significant challenge, as opposed to making the player retarded. Challenging is good, but simply making combat more challenging is too much of a narrow perspective.

Balancing the challenge can also be an absolute bitch. You'd be surprised how many gamers get stuck and then don't bother going on. I'd still go for it though, providing you're willing to put the effort in and don't over step your mark.

 

[knut]

There's a fine line, when in combat, between fun and frustrating, and then along the side of those I like to consider areas such as too easy, unsatisfactory or repetitive.

For the latter options I would put where HL2's combat mostly sits, as well as some areas of Halo and other such FPS's. COD4 stepped it up a notch for me because of how richly the combat was presented, but taking your notes in mind , they roughly represent how COD4 is played on Hardened difficulty, which was very 50/50 in terms of gameplay. On the one hand it completely changes how fast you progress from area or cover to cover, or how you use your ammo and what weapons to use where. Halo on Legendary does the same, and I wish HL2 had on Hard but unfortunately it fell quite short on actually making me feel immersed in the combat which especially disappointed me considering how much you wade through it.

If you're going to base it more on story then it has the potential to work presuming that you don't keep spewing out Combine soldiers from no where ala COD4 and areas of HL2, because that looks tacky and does make the game nothing more than a shooting gallery. Having a large number of enemies in certain areas can make sense depending on the situation, just don't throw soldiers around every corner waiting for a trigger to spawn. Of course, you can make HL2 combat easy as long as there's someone handing out an unlimited amount of medical packs every 5 seconds, or a crate of replenishing machine gun rounds.

May I suggest you take a look at the Project Reality Mod for Battlefield 2 for a real sense of making combat challenging but ultimately fun and rewarding granted you have the patience to tackle it correctly, which unfortunately is not what the casual gamer wants to bother sitting down doing but you can tweak it to ways you see fit. Regardless, give the mod a try because it's probably the closest thing I can direct you towards.

 

[Cheomesh]

Eh nothing of my game designs cater to the casual gamer -- I think we've enough games like that for them to pick from.

By limiting weapons, I mean like this:

1 melee weapon
1 side arm
1 long arm
1 explosive

Still quite a few weapons for a human without HEV assistance to carry about.

Basically long arms are the MP7, AR2, xbow (not having it in any mod I make, though), and shotgun. Explosives are frags, det-packs, or the RPG.

As for random soldier spawns, none of that. For soldiers to show up and fight you, they must already be on-location (you interupt something they're doing for instance), or come in via drop ship / APC.

 

[Asknoone]

The concept doesn't appeal to me too much because I think we're at a stage where we should be breaking away from the strictly combat orientated game and into something that's more of an experience. I think combat can be fun, tense and challenging, and that's fun you know, but it's not fun when that's all your game is. If there's anything Half-life has done it's break from this mundane mold.

I know this is only a short mod, and by extension just a kind of experiment with combat, but I'd argue the suggested changes are at best superficial. To me it's a kind of backwards thinking because you're not thinking outside the box. It's pretty well known the combat and basic mechanics of Half-life 2 are pretty much what we've been seeing for some time, but that's good you know, because that's never changed anyway and it never will change. You can tweak how many weapons you can carry, or you can tweak your sprint – but you're still confining yourself in the shooting gallery space because you're still right down there in the basic FPS experience. Those kinds of things won't change that.

Sure, you're wanting to do something combat based, but you could arguably do something more interesting with your gameplay than you're planning. It's that restricted thinking that oh, it's an FPS – how can we change how you shoot people? When you could be thinking beyond that. Half-life 2 has put the basics right down there in front of you, now you should be thinking - how can I go forward from that? What interesting gameplay scenarios can I come up with? Tweaking and changing those basics is, to me, kinda pointless.

 

[Cheomesh]

I've said I want to have a lot of talking and story building in the mod, I just wanted to talk about the combat part of it here because you all are NOT going to want to sit and talk about how I can develop a character over the progress of a story.

So doing it exactly like HL2 is "thinking out side of the box"? I hadn't even talked about the purposes behind the firefights in the game, of which I'd prefer objective based over "kill 'em all".

I'm not Gordon ****ing Freeman in this one. If you want the same combat style as Half Life 2, that's fine. There are other mods.

 

[Asknoone]

You seem to have missed the point of what I was saying completely.

 

[Crispy]

I've said I want to have a lot of talking and story building in the mod, I just wanted to talk about the combat part of it here because you all are NOT going to want to sit and talk about how I can develop a character over the progress of a story.

So doing it exactly like HL2 is "thinking out side of the box"? I hadn't even talked about the purposes behind the firefights in the game, of which I'd prefer objective based over "kill 'em all".

I'm not Gordon ****ing Freeman in this one. If you want the same combat style as Half Life 2, that's fine. There are other mods.

Make something you would enjoy playing, and other like-minded individuals will enjoy playing it.

If you simply want to make something popular, make something with mass appeal that the largest section of gamers will be at ease playing.

Point is, choose your goal and stick to it.

 

[Qhartb]

So doing it exactly like HL2 is "thinking out side of the box"? I hadn't even talked about the purposes behind the firefights in the game, of which I'd prefer objective based over "kill 'em all".

He wasn't saying to do it like HL2. He was saying that HL2 did a good job of creatively switching up gameplay styles. It's like:

1: "Try something creative."
2: "Nah, Half-life 2 was creative. 'Creative' has been done before. Honestly, so many people are trying to be 'creative', it's getting pretty cliche. We should try something different, so let's make it 'derivative'!"

Anyways, everyone has different tastes. Challenge can be fun, but what you described is more than I would want. Now, if you don't give a crap about me liking your mod, which is a perfectly reasonable stance for you to take, just make it however you want it. If you want it to be popular with a bigger crowd, realize that not everyone wants extreme difficulty.

 

[Cheomesh]

And it is derivative of...

HL2's gameplay was generally firefight broken up by a "physics puzzle", followed by a firefight and the occasional convo.

 

[Qhartb]

And it is derivative of...

HL2's gameplay was generally firefight broken up by a "physics puzzle", followed by a firefight and the occasional convo.

That's what the bulk of it is, yes, but if it just did that and nothing else, it wouldn't feel like Half-life 2. Part of what make HL2 what it is is doing those things well--firefight, physics puzzles and story scenes. But they throw other gameplay styles in, too. They did platforming in Sandtraps, the Citadel, and under the bridge in Highway 17. They have vehicle sections and sections where the player may freely explore without worrying about combat. There are times you have to run and take cover when you have no means to defeat an attacker. That's all tried and true, though. More experimentally, they let you direct formerly enemy AI with the antlions. They trained you to use the gravity gun by letting you play with Dog. They gave you a purposely overpowered weapon in the Citadel. In the episodes there's even more experimental sections, such as Lowlife.

 

[Asknoone]

HL2's gameplay was generally firefight broken up by a "physics puzzle", followed by a firefight and the occasional convo.

That's very basic look at it, yes. But it stems to so much more than that.

The gameplay shifts in variety without fail scene after scene, and Episode 1 is a good example of that. Whether it be deflecting falling debris on a descending elevator; using your flashlight to enable Alyx to shoot in the darkness; blocking antlion mounds; defending against hordes of zombies whilst awaiting a lift to the surface or weaving in and out of the street as Alyx provides covering fire with a sniper rifle, you will always be doing something different and what truly elevates the game above the rest.

It's very innovative, ever-changing game design. It's not a specific thing, it's just part of the experience, which is why people tend to gloss over how good the gameplay actually is. Most developers don't understand this kind of clever, tightly structured gmae design. It's that kind of thing you want to aim for.

 

[Cheomesh]

SO what's the problem here? I've never mentioned any other game play mechanics I had in mind; I've stated over and over this was only the combat part, the part that interests most people.

 

[Asknoone]

I was just backing up Qhartb, and trying to illustrate my original point and how it relates to your suggestions.

He wasn't saying to do it like HL2. He was saying that HL2 did a good job of creatively switching up gameplay styles. It's like:

1: "Try something creative."
2: "Nah, Half-life 2 was creative. 'Creative' has been done before. Honestly, so many people are trying to be 'creative', it's getting pretty cliche. We should try something different, so let's make it 'derivative'!"

Anyways, everyone has different tastes. Challenge can be fun, but what you described is more than I would want. Now, if you don't give a crap about me liking your mod, which is a perfectly reasonable stance for you to take, just make it however you want it. If you want it to be popular with a bigger crowd, realize that not everyone wants extreme difficulty.