It's time we saw Gordon Freeman

[SpectreBlofeld]

This is really all that needs to be said on a practical level. What a waste of work and effort it would be.

Oh Spectre, I also forgot to thank you for quoting one sentence from my post and absolutely failing to address the rest of it. So...

Thank you.

Because that one sentence was a question. I answered it.

 

[Absinthe]

And creating the model won't be as hard as you make it out to be.

Creating the model isn't the problem. Getting that model to remain synchronized with player projections is.

You may dismiss that idea as preposterous, but it is exactly the kind of thinking that goes into the design of most great games - a medium that is built upon player/game feedback.

But none of this matters. There is little demand for reflective surfaces in HL, and far fewer who want to see Gordon in a reflection. It's simply not going to happen in this series.

 

[SpectreBlofeld]

More realistic? The game isn't relished for its realism,

I beg to differ.

but its plot, gameplay mechanics and immersion more than make up for that. You want to be able to see Gordon Freeman in a mirror, for the sake of it being slightly more realistic, but in the process, sacrificing a large amount of immersion. Its not really thinking within the games best interests really.

I'm still waiting to hear why it would sacrifice immersion.

 

[SpectreBlofeld]

Creating the model isn't the problem. Getting that model to remain synchronized with player projections is.

You may dismiss that idea as preposterous, but it is exactly the kind of thinking that goes into the design of most great games - a medium that is built upon player/game feedback.

But none of this matters. There is little demand for reflective surfaces in HL, and far fewer who want to see Gordon in a reflection. It's simply not going to happen in this series.

It's not going to happen in the episodes. I am aware of this. HL3 will probably see an update to the Source engine, however.

 

[Absinthe]

Because that one sentence was a question. I answered it.

Conversation is not built entirely upon question marks. I made a lengthy post explaining why things are the way they are and the most you mustered up in response was a mere sentence. And no, that reply and this one did not make you look clever by any stretch of the imagination. It's funny that you later say...

I'm still waiting to hear why it would sacrifice immersion.

And yet my entire post explained exactly thus.
Address the content of my posts.

 

[SpectreBlofeld]

not once did it ever cross my mind that I wasn't seeing a mirror in City 17.

Well, it crossed mine.

 

[Iron_cube]

The playermodel in portal made the game uglier, not better.

(No offence to the portal animators and modellers )

 

[Shift]

It's not going to happen in the episodes. I am aware of this. HL3 will probably see an update to the Source engine, however.

But it STILL wont happen, because it will ruin the immersion, bloody hell, email Gabe about, he tell you exactly the same thing.

 

[SpectreBlofeld]

Have you ever modelled, unwrapped, textured, normal textured, and animated a complex character? Then written the code to perform those animations? Not to mention the fact that realtime reflections are a HUGE hit on performance (and something that is simply not part of the Source engine), it's just a silly trivial fuss that no one except you cares about.

1) on creating a model - Valve DOES get paid to do that stuff, you know.
2) on performance - computers have come a long way since 2004.
3) look at water. reflections exist.

 

[SpectreBlofeld]

But it STILL wont happen, because it will ruin the immersion, bloody hell, email Gabe about, he tell you exactly the same thing.

And I'm STILL waiting for explanation of how it will 'ruin the immersion'.

 

[Absinthe]

And I'm STILL waiting for explanation of how it will 'ruin the immersion'.

See, now I think you're just deliberately trolling.

 

[Pesmerga]

When the player sees his reflection, he'll no longer think he is Gordon. He'll just think he is controlling this mute MIT graduate through various encounters. When Alyx or another character interacts with him, they'll be interacting with Gordon and not the player. The emotional connection is broken.

It's important for Valve that the player is Gordon Freeman in every respect possible. Not only are mirrors and other reflective surfaces a technical challenge that would be superfluous to conquer, but they would only serve to spoil the mysterious link between the player and Gordon Freeman.

3) look at water. reflections exist.

Those are cubemap reflections, calculated during map compilation and through "buildcubemaps". They reflect the world and light, not other characters or entities.

 

[Asknoone]

Nope, it's not. We'll never see Gordon Freeman.

 

[SpectreBlofeld]

And by the way, creating a reflection won't be any harder than creating the seeing-through-portal effect in Portal, a game in which, i might add, you get to see yourself. Which invalidates all of these arguments. And hey, you don't talk in that, either. So it doesn't imply anything stupid like 'if you see yourself you have to talk too!!!!11'

See, now I think you're just deliberately trolling.

Then you're wrong about that, too.

 

[Absinthe]

Then you're wrong about that, too.

Then make an actual attempt to address my argument against your idea. You keep asking "lawl how roon immurzion?" when I gave you a direct answer and you have repeatedly (and knowingly) dismissed it.

Seriously, come on.

 

[Pesmerga]

And by the way, creating a reflection won't be any harder than creating the seeing-through-portal effect in Portal, a game in which, i might add, you get to see yourself. Which invalidates all of these arguments.

The ways in which Portal handles that kind of thing is much different than the way realtime reflections are done. It would be a huge hit on performance, severely decreasing fps with just one reflection, not to mention many from several surfaces. It would kill immersion, it would kill your framerates, it would kill the minimum requirements for Source. Now you're killing my brain cells with your ignorance and narrow minded assholery.

I'm done with this.

 

[Shift]

And by the way, creating a reflection won't be any harder than creating the seeing-through-portal effect in Portal, a game in which, i might add, you get to see yourself. Which invalidates all of these arguments. And hey, you don't talk in that, either. So it doesn't imply anything stupid like 'if you see yourself you have to talk too!!!!11'

No, Gordon Freeman is specifically designed to be YOU in-game. The test subject in Portal is not designed for that purpose, you are actually just playing as the test subject in Portal, same instance as if you were playing as Alyx or Barney.

 

[SpectreBlofeld]

All right, all right, i'll quote the rest of your post.

The entire design paradigm revolving around the protagonist is creating an immersing experience without cues from the main character. We've all played games where the character you play lets out a spiel about how he wants revenge or what he needs to do, regardless of whether or not the player thinks the same. Valve's aim has been to forego these kinds of detrimental mechanics, instead trying to create a motivating environment that doesn't need explanation from your character. Your character shouldn't have to remind you to feel sad when something bad happens. If Valve pulled it off right, you should feel saddened. Valve chose not to have Gordon speak not only to avoid cliched point-of-view narration that feels like the player's direction is being forced, but also because it paid off in spades to have a mute protagonist motivated by other characters and happenings in the game world, with no dissonance on the player's end. This does, of course, entail a few odd moments where you just want to blurt out "What the hell's happening?!" to another character. But that's a small sacrifice done for the sake of consistency, and I think it's proven to be something of a quirky charm for many fans.

The above is about Gordon speaking. I don't want Gordon to speak.

What does all that have to do with this topic? Well, the visual image of Gordon Freeman is the same deal. Yes, the character does have his own name, as well as a face to go along with it. But that really should be it. That's the shell of a role the player assumes. And the reason it's worked so well is because it rests nearly entirely on the player's projections, something I find to be a far more efficient way of generating emotional/immersive feedback than any reflective surface can. If I was battling against a pack of hunters in some abandoned building and suddenly gazed across a mirror and saw myself, what would I see looking back at me? A blank stare? Some kind of "angry" facial expression?

That is a surefire way to remove me from my character; when Gordon Freeman no longer reflects my internal dialogue. This is the problem. Either Valve doesn't bother at all and leaves Gordon lookinglike an eternally-staring husk or they try to force visual cues in the reflection. Both would fall flat on their faces.

I imagine he would have this expression on his face:

...which is the same expression he has in all the Valve art.

It would be a step backwards, I think. We're not talking about an NPC that can be scripted tightly with all its body posturing and facial animation. You can't script the player character's expressions in a game like this without it looking stupid and out-of-place. I remember playing Prey. The moment it took me out of the beginning first-person scripted cutscene and I ran around in front of the mirror, I was reminded instantly that it was merely a game. And I consequently did not give a shit about my character or anybody else for the entire duration.

Not that I need to worry. Valve seem to be sticking to their guns on this matter, and I don't blame them.

None of the other NPC's expressions change during a firefight. They have the same expressions when they're standing around idle as they do when they should 'COMBINE!' It doesn't make it any more or less a 'game' to me.

The ways in which Portal handles that kind of thing is much different than the way realtime reflections are done. It would be a huge hit on performance, severely decreasing fps with just one reflection, not to mention many from several surfaces. It would kill immersion, it would kill your framerates, it would kill the minimum requirements for Source. Now you're killing my brain cells with your ignorance and narrow minded assholery.

I'm done with this.

Sigh. A mirror would just be a portal turned back on itself that you can't walk through. It'd be no bigger hit on performance than the portals are.

No, Gordon Freeman is specifically designed to be YOU in-game.

No. You're supposed to be Gordon, not the other way around.

 

[Shift]

Wtf is the difference?

 

[SpectreBlofeld]

Portals aside, Source uses remote cameras all the time (when you see Dr. Breen or another character on a screen, the model really exists somewhere else off the map). All they'd have to do is point a 'camera' back at you, and the mirror would be the 'screen.' No performance hit.

Wtf is the difference?

Because I already know I'm playing as Gordon, not as 'myself'. I already know what Gordon looks like. He has a beard, glasses, green eyes and brown hair. The lack of mirrors just makes it weird.

 

[Iron_cube]

No performance hit.

Oh boy. Portals are raping framerates when you look directly in them, ya know.

 

[SpectreBlofeld]

Off topic, but here's a hilarious prank using a 'mirror' - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lv0-ftyMKE&eurl=http://digg.com/lbv.php?id=3817882&ord=1

 

[Pesmerga]

Sigh. A mirror would just be a portal turned back on itself that you can't walk through. It'd be no bigger hit on performance than the portals are.

Portals are done with cameras, as far as I know. What about mirrors of varying sizes? Water reflections are impossible this way, too, as the camera output surface would make the water look like a glass mirror. Not to mention the fact that map designers would have to singlehandedly place cameras wherever there was a reflection. It would be like making a whole second map with the sole purpose of reflecting the character.

And Portals *do* take a hit on performance- quite a hit at that. They are the most complicated graphical thing in the game to calculate.

There are shaders that can simulate character reflections on water, but they have limited uses. It's obvious you have no ****ing idea what you're talking about. Despite the dozen posts several users have shared with you explaining how specifically it would kill immersion and Valve's design point of view, despite the technical ramifications of real time reflections, you continue to retort with baseless ideas and 3rd grade thinking.

 

[SpectreBlofeld]

There are shaders that can simulate character reflections on water, but they have limited uses.

Yes, the limited use being 'simulating character reflections on water.'

It's obvious you have no ****ing idea what you're talking about. Despite the dozen posts several users have shared with you explaining how specifically it would 1)kill immersion and 2)Valve's design point of view, despite the 3)technical ramifications of real time reflections, you continue to retort with baseless ideas and 3rd grade thinking.

The first point is an opinion piece. The second is speculation. The third is factually incorrect. And all of it is bracketed with childish name calling.

 

[Absinthe]

All right, all right, i'll quote the rest of your post.

...

The above is about Gordon speaking. I don't want Gordon to speak.

Nevertheless, I explained it because it goes hand in hand with regards to an in-game visualization of Freeman. The reasoning behind the two design choices is fundamentally the same.

You say you do not want Gordon to speak, yet you want to be able to see his reflection. Ignoring my disagreement and the reasons as to why, this also would ultimately result in design incoherence. After all, if you're going to allow the player to see himself, why not allow them to speak as well? The more you try to create Freeman as an actual character, the more you force the player out of his shoes. What Valve has decided in may not be 100% perfect, but it works very well for the most part.

I imagine he would have this expression on his face:

...which is the same expression he has in all the Valve art.

Cue the shattering of immersion. Mind the broken shards.

None of the other NPC's expressions change during a firefight. They have the same expressions when they're standing around idle as they do when they should 'COMBINE!' It doesn't make it any more or less a 'game' to me.

This is both a convenient and trivial oversight. Players are generally not up close in their allies' faces when in a firefight. There's no reason to accord time and resources to making generic NPCs make frowny faces when they're getting butchered by antlions. Besides, I think most NPCs act realistic enough that I'm not yanked out of the game.

But this is a digression. NPCs are not the same as the PC. As such, the design process is very different. And Valve has put a lot of focus and effort in maintaining the narrative perspective and the player/character relationship of Gordon Freeman. It's easily one of - if not the most - important aspects of the games. You personally may not be jarred by the sight of some stiff, vacant-looking scientist looking back at you in the mirror, but I can assure you that many fans would be. This is not a question of making the games more realistic. This is a question of whether or not you can tolerate that dissonance. I know I wouldn't.

 

[Iron_cube]

The second is speculation.

There were no hands when using mounted turrets in HL1 nor HL2.

There were no hands either when using the airboat, the jeep and the jalopy.

I do beleive we actually know valve's intentions about this ..."issue".. in the future episodes. It'll stay the same. And the average player is happy with it.

 

[Pesmerga]

Yes, the limited use being 'simulating character reflections on water.'

As a matter of fact, I'm wrong. I was thinking of this, but that's just for reflecting the world. It uses the same properties of the water shader, but it only works on a z-axis.

There are no character reflections in the Source engine. Period. Maybe in a far away Source update or HL3, but for now, none.

Sorry.

 

[Absinthe]

It could be added to the Source engine. But it still won't be used in the HL series for design reasons.

 

[Apocalypse89]

Yeah, you can give him a few minor animations, but that won't stop the fact that his head and gun will still be fixed in a single direction, which'll honestly stand out a lot when you compare it to other characters who are constantly looking around, lowering their weapons when not fighting etc. There's also the rather major problem of the player moving around unrealistically(constant sprinting/jumping, strafing, running backwards, etc.), which'll once again stand out like a sore thumb compared to the rest of the game's characters who either can't perform such actions or only do so when it makes sense.

Fire up a game of HL2DM and look at the other players. Imagine those characters in the midst of HL2's much more realistically animated NPCs. You'll see why it'll ruin immersion.

 

[giant384]

Those are cubemap reflections, calculated during map compilation and through "buildcubemaps". They reflect the world and light, not other characters or entities.

they reflect everything in the map except you. same reason you cant see your own shadow.

 

[Stene]

HL1 has Gordon model and mirrors. But those mirrors do not show you without some modding. They are just like mirrors in The Ship.

You can see Gordon in HL1 by putting thirdperson to console. He has ponytail

 

[nipples]

It's not going to happen in the episodes. I am aware of this. HL3 will probably see an update to the Source engine, however.

You realize that you just contradicted yourself right? It has been said that the episodes are Half-life 3.

 

[jerkasaur]

you feel you are gordon simply because you haven't seen his face in the game and you're controlling him. If you were to see he's face, you would never feel the same way playing as him as you do now.
I've never felt I'm actually the main character in the GTA Series simply because I see who he is.

 

[McGooTheWise]

WHERE IS SHASTA WHEN YOU NEED HIM?! D:

Spectre, meet edit button, edit button, meet spectre.

Use him, and he will save your forum life.

I find it funny that you take the liberty to TRY and pull apart Absinthe's post, but you only threw back idle comments. Little boys & girls, if you want to take place in an argument, you're going to have to try and argue back a hell of a lot harder than that. I'm with what another person said, why does it matter to you so much to see your reflection? It's Valve's game, not yours. Stop pretending to be their CEO, and come back to the community and enjoy the game for what it is. Valve has their reasons for making the games the way they did in every aspect. I hear people complain all the time about stuff like this, the hands, the feet, the ****ing walking motion, but you're not appreciating the game for what it is, and I say to you in the nicest way possible, with the rudest words. accept it for what it is, or gtfo.

And no, you do not need an explanation for WHY it is the way it is. All I have to tell you is that it is. You're not of enough importance for these people to sit here and argue with you, but they do it because they try to be friendly to newcomers, such as yourself. It would be best for you, I think, to drop this argument and take my advice. Again, take the game for what it is, and enjoy it. it's a lot more fun to see the greener side of things. (And there is no green side to this argument.)

Less you want to continue to be a whining little pansy, frankly I could give a shit. I'm just stating my mind.

 

[Whitestar]

How about... no.

This same argument was brought up back before the original HL2 was released and it's still retarded. People ended up posting the most stupid, dumbass suggestions for something that would fundamentally break Valve's design of the player character. Furthermore, there's no need for it. There's never been a need for it. Why throw it in just for the sake of it? I don't know about you, but it's not like I need to be reminded I'm Gordon Freeman.

The entire design paradigm revolving around the protagonist is creating an immersing experience without cues from the main character. We've all played games where the character you play lets out a spiel about how he wants revenge or what he needs to do, regardless of whether or not the player thinks the same. Valve's aim has been to forego these kinds of detrimental mechanics, instead trying to create a motivating environment that doesn't need explanation from your character. Your character shouldn't have to remind you to feel sad when something bad happens. If Valve pulled it off right, you should feel saddened. Valve chose not to have Gordon speak not only to avoid cliched point-of-view narration that feels like the player's direction is being forced, but also because it paid off in spades to have a mute protagonist motivated by other characters and happenings in the game world, with no dissonance on the player's end. This does, of course, entail a few odd moments where you just want to blurt out "What the hell's happening?!" to another character. But that's a small sacrifice done for the sake of consistency, and I think it's proven to be something of a quirky charm for many fans.

What does all that have to do with this topic? Well, the visual image of Gordon Freeman is the same deal. Yes, the character does have his own name, as well as a face to go along with it. But that really should be it. That's the shell of a role the player assumes. And the reason it's worked so well is because it rests nearly entirely on the player's projections, something I find to be a far more efficient way of generating emotional/immersive feedback than any reflective surface can. If I was battling against a pack of hunters in some abandoned building and suddenly gazed across a mirror and saw myself, what would I see looking back at me? A blank stare? Some kind of "angry" facial expression? That is a surefire way to remove me from my character; when Gordon Freeman no longer reflects my internal dialogue. This is the problem. Either Valve doesn't bother at all and leaves Gordon lookinglike an eternally-staring husk or they try to force visual cues in the reflection. Both would fall flat on their faces.

It would be a step backwards, I think. We're not talking about an NPC that can be scripted tightly with all its body posturing and facial animation. You can't script the player character's expressions in a game like this without it looking stupid and out-of-place. I remember playing Prey. The moment it took me out of the beginning first-person scripted cutscene and I ran around in front of the mirror, I was reminded instantly that it was merely a game. And I consequently did not give a shit about my character or anybody else for the entire duration.

Not that I need to worry. Valve seem to be sticking to their guns on this matter, and I don't blame them.

It's like you took the words out of my thoughts. Well said.

 

[Kattleshock]

I can actually picture that. An early evening level,set in the country. You enter a farmhouse,and look out the window. You see your reflexion in the window,and a faint image of the room behind you. Look at the concept art pictures for HL2,especially the one where Gordon is walking out of the smoke with his crowbar...Now picture the Gordon Freeman model looking exactly like that.

I think it would be perfect. A nice dark,creepy tone to the game.

I understand that Valve has set up the ghost like character of Gordon perfectly,but I've always thought the main thing about Gordon is that he doesn't talk,not that he doesn't even have a body in the world at all. Do you think all the characters in the game are just taling to a pair of floating hands holding a crowbar? How are you gonna have kids with Alyx like that?

 

[Acepilotf14]

You realize that you just contradicted yourself right? It has been said that the episodes are Half-life 3.

The Episodes are NOT Half-Life 3. They sort of are, but there will likely be a HL3 in the future.

 

[SpectreBlofeld]

WHERE IS SHASTA WHEN YOU NEED HIM?! D:

Spectre, meet edit button, edit button, meet spectre.

Use him, and he will save your forum life.

I find it funny that you take the liberty to TRY and pull apart Absinthe's post, but you only threw back idle comments. Little boys & girls, if you want to take place in an argument, you're going to have to try and argue back a hell of a lot harder than that. I'm with what another person said, why does it matter to you so much to see your reflection? It's Valve's game, not yours. Stop pretending to be their CEO, and come back to the community and enjoy the game for what it is. Valve has their reasons for making the games the way they did in every aspect. I hear people complain all the time about stuff like this, the hands, the feet, the ****ing walking motion, but you're not appreciating the game for what it is, and I say to you in the nicest way possible, with the rudest words. accept it for what it is, or gtfo.

And no, you do not need an explanation for WHY it is the way it is. All I have to tell you is that it is. You're not of enough importance for these people to sit here and argue with you, but they do it because they try to be friendly to newcomers, such as yourself. It would be best for you, I think, to drop this argument and take my advice. Again, take the game for what it is, and enjoy it. it's a lot more fun to see the greener side of things. (And there is no green side to this argument.)

Less you want to continue to be a whining little pansy, frankly I could give a shit. I'm just stating my mind.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize it was a crime to criticize the game in any way on these forums. I will join you in sucking Gabe Newell's dick once you're finished with him and never ever suggest anything should change again.

You people are douchebags. You apparently can't have a debate about opinion without resorting to personal attacks. You're more interested in 'winning an argument' than actually dealing with the facts.

And here are the facts - every reason you people have given for not showing Gordon's reflection has been pulled out of your asses. There's only one reason why it hasn't been done - so Valve doesn't have to figure out how to show Gordon holding things without them floating in front of him.

That's it. The only reason. All this bullshit about the CPU hit, a 'design ethos,' it's 'too hard' to make a Gordon model, etc, is 100% fiction. I find it amusing that there is a good reason why it hasn't been done yet but nobody here was smart enough to mention it, instead making shit up in the spirit of true fanboyism.

And for the record, Van Halen, I don't need your permission to want a game feature, and I *know* I don't need an explanation because neither you nor anyone here are educated, intelligent, or cognizant enough to provide one. It's like a schoolyard in here.

So chill out. I'm not insulting your favorite game. It happens to be my favorite game, too. But criticism and suggested improvements isn't assault on your lifestyle or anyone else's.

 

[Absinthe]

Yeah, right.

You post an idea that most people disagreed with and you instantly became dismissive and assy. You didn't even produce a paragraph in response to myself until I made you. Valve has stated why they're not allowing you to see Freeman in-game, but instead of recognizing the kind of complexities that can go into designing a game, you seem to be disagreeing out of sheer stubbornness.

Please, never talk about "facts" again when it comes to HL. I mean ever. Valve has called it a design decision. Considering they're the ones who made the games and seeing as how it's in keeping with pretty much every other way they've handled the Freeman character, I think I'm going to lean towards their statements instead of your half-assed "Valve can't think of a way to make hands" theory.

So stop inflating your self-conceit.

 

[Azner]

I'm sorry, I didn't realize it was a crime to criticize the game in any way on these forums. I will join you in sucking Gabe Newell's dick once you're finished with him and never ever suggest anything should change again.

You people are douchebags. You apparently can't have a debate about opinion without resorting to personal attacks. You're more interested in 'winning an argument' than actually dealing with the facts.

And here are the facts - every reason you people have given for not showing Gordon's reflection has been pulled out of your asses. There's only one reason why it hasn't been done - so Valve doesn't have to figure out how to show Gordon holding things without them floating in front of him.

That's it. The only reason. All this bullshit about the CPU hit, a 'design ethos,' it's 'too hard' to make a Gordon model, etc, is 100% fiction. I find it amusing that there is a good reason why it hasn't been done yet but nobody here was smart enough to mention it, instead making shit up in the spirit of true fanboyism.

And for the record, Van Halen, I don't need your permission to want a game feature, and I *know* I don't need an explanation because neither you nor anyone here are educated, intelligent, or cognizant enough to provide one. It's like a schoolyard in here.

So chill out. I'm not insulting your favorite game. It happens to be my favorite game, too. But criticism and suggested improvements isn't assault on your lifestyle or anyone else's.

Does Not Comply.

We've merely argued with you. I assume since only absinthe is the only debating against you, we're just toying with you.