Lombardi: "We chose the wrong word in 'episode'"

Laivasse said:
Doug doesn't half talk a lot of shit sometimes. The episodic contnt route was a bit of a failure in terms of speedy delivery, but don't pretend after the fact that it was a problem with semantics... We were given the impression (by Valve!) that the development cycle would be much shorter than it turned out to be, and that isn't a problem with the words that were chosen, it's a problem with the business model that was chosen and the way it was implemented.
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Simply put, you're wrong. Lets get it straight, comparing the way valve does things to other devs (not that you were) is stupid. Valve isnt like EA who releases a new crap-game every 6 months. They are very well-known for being ultra picky with their products, thats why they take a long time to make games and have so many delays... Other companies follow a very different route. So basically, a complete standalone game to valve would take maybe 5 years to make (hl2 is the obvious example) as with any other developer, they release full-length games in 3 years, but turn out not as good...

So basically, if valve went with a HL3, they would take around 7 years to make it, as compared to the 1.5-2 years with an episode. SO despite what you say, the episodes weren't a failure of releasing sooner. And people act like valve promised how long each episode would take when they didn't. They didnt say 'its gonna take 6 months' and ended up 2 years... besides, the episodes are more quality driven, not quantity. its a question of if you want a 15 hour long game thats meh, or an 8 hour long game thats f***ing god like???
 
Fiberawptic said:
They didnt say 'its gonna take 6 months' and ended up 2 years...
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Dearie, that's exactly what they said. That's the whole point of the bit you quoted. I believe Gabe said they'd be able to knock a trilogy out by the end of 2007.

They said they would release content more quickly. They intended to. They failed to do so.

No big deal, no grudge on my part, but what is annoying is what seems like an attempt to rewrite history by Doug. And the really annoying thing is it's been a long time since Valve did make any promises about the schedule for the episodes, so people's memories are hazy and they're inclined to believe him (like you did) when he implies that they never said anything at all about 6 month intervals. It's really disingenuous.

Just to lay the issue to rest for anyone not sure if Doug really is talking out of his arse, here's a couple of sources I found in about 2 minutes:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/07/AR2006060702303.html
'Two more installments are on the way, in a trilogy scheduled to wrap up by the end of next year.' (Article from 2006 - not a directly attributable quote, but there's no way that claim would have appeared if it wasn't based on info supplied by Valve.)

http://www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3143194
'He relates what the entire game industry has been doing for all these years to making feature films. With episodic, the door opens to do content more along the lines of what we see on TV.'

That second one is particularly ironic although it's from 2005 and no concrete schedule was yet in place, because Gabe makes the exact same TV program comparison that Doug says we shouldn't have made.
 
Laivasse said:
They said they would release content more quickly. They intended to. They failed to do so.
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What part of "hl2 took 6 years to make, episode 1 and 2 took 1 and a half or 2 years to make" dont you get?
 
Fiberawptic said:
What part of "hl2 took 6 years to make, episode 1 and 2 took 1 and a half or 2 years to make" dont you get?
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He's looking at the exact details, how the episodes were supposed to already be completely wrapped up by now. Not how it is coming out in smaller chunks and a significantly shorter time.
 
When your argument is based on a faulty premise you should stop arguing. Your post (not you Sheepo) was about how it didn't matter how long Valve took to develop the Episodes, because it's a shorter delay than a normal game and they never said they'd release one every six months.

But they DID say that. So accept the new info and stop arguing.
 
Fiberawptic said:
What part of "hl2 took 6 years to make, episode 1 and 2 took 1 and a half or 2 years to make" dont you get?
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Half-Life 2 took 6 years. Episodes One to Three will take about the same amount of time.
 
Not to mention they're using a preexisting engine with all its features and assets. It's arguable they'd take even longer if they were trying to deliver a game built from scratch with episodic releases.

Not that I haven't immensely enjoyed the episodes. But I hope Valve delivers another epic like HL2. That's what they're best at IMO.
 
Laivasse said:
When your argument is based on a faulty premise you should stop arguing.
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When you're argument diverts from the discussion to start personally insulting anothers argument you should stop arguing. With that aside, you weren't to clear on what you meant. But i did read "the episodes were a failure" which is pretty farfetched claim in itself. And if you were just trying to say they failed to make it before the dealine the announced, not promised, then it came out wrong. However, judging something based on the means it took to release it, rather than the content of it itself, is poor evaluation and clearly what's important to you is how long it takes for them to make the episodes, rather than how they actually are after release. If thats the case, then yes, to you they are a failure.

For me, Episode 1 was great, but great means average in Valve terms, and it wasn't amazing like hl2 was. They really turned that around with Episode 2. The art direction/ gameplay/ AI/ Story had never been better and is the best half life has been yet.
 
Absinthe said:
He never insulted you. Calm the **** down.
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*Sigh*, can you please stay out of it, the arguments going ok with out stupid comments for now... I never said he insulted me, i said he insulted my arguments, which is a fair thing to say.
 
He thought your argument was faulty.

The horror...?
 
Fiberawptic said:
When you're argument diverts from the discussion to start personally insulting anothers argument you should stop arguing. With that aside, you weren't to clear on what you meant. But i did read "the episodes were a failure" which is pretty farfetched claim in itself. And if you were just trying to say they failed to make it before the dealine the announced, not promised, then it came out wrong. However, judging something based on the means it took to release it, rather than the content of it itself, is poor evaluation and clearly what's important to you is how long it takes for them to make the episodes, rather than how they actually are after release. If thats the case, then yes, to you they are a failure.
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If you read my first response in the thread you'll realise that I actually don't care how long it takes Valve to release anything, and that I'm fairly happy with the episodes. I said they were 'a failure in terms of speedy delivery.' You can try to argue against that, but don't do it on the basis that Valve never mentioned six month intervals because they did.

No insults, just informing you that your premise was faulty because there was some info you didn't know about. Rub and peas.
 
Laivasse said:
If you read my first response in the thread you'll realise that I actually don't care how long it takes Valve to release anything, and that I'm fairly happy with the episodes. I said they were 'a failure in terms of speedy delivery.' You can try to argue against that, but don't do it on the basis that Valve never mentioned six month intervals because they did.

No insults, just informing you that your premise was faulty because there was some info you didn't know about. Rub and peas.
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Well than that was poor decision on their part, i never really tried to argue they didnt say it. I just brought it up as an example to mention that they never really anounced a certain time they would be done with the episodes, maybe episode 1, but not all of them... However, you say they did say that, in which case a source is always welcome.

But even if its not the most 'speedy' delivery of content, it is unarguably quicker than making a half life 3 which according to them would be around 7-8 years of work. They dont say 'content' as in when all 3 episodes are done, they just mean breaking it down to three parts so they feed it to you peice by peice quicker. So it is quicker delivery, you wait 1.5 years to play a new game as gordon as opposed to 7...
 
Fiberawptic said:
source
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Check the washington post link I posted further up. This source might be better since it actually puts the claim in quotes. Search around and you'll see that all the articles and featurettes from the time are repeating this Valve-sourced claim, although finding direct quotes from a 3+ year old interview based on a couple of words is currently beyond me. There's even this thread which mentions a 3 month interval. Make no mistake that Valve intended the release schedule to be much shorter than it was - and told us it would be. They didn't just mean 'it's going to be quicker for the individual games but the final trilogy will take as long as HL2 did.' The trilogy was meant to be finished in 2007, and such speed was cited as a big advantage of episodic content. It's not me who's defining what's important or not about Valve's content delivery, it's Valve. Gabe was also making big murmurings towards the end of last year about reevaluating the episodic approach after Ep3, saying that he'd take feedback from fans over it. When they first announced it it was hyped like the future of gaming, one episode later it's potentially being ditched? That can tell you what even Valve think about their success with episodic.

And m8, let's not be silly...
Fiberawptic said:
i never really tried to argue they didnt say it.
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Yeah you did. 'They didnt say 'its gonna take 6 months' and ended up 2 years...' That's that. Happy?
 
Laivasse said:
And m8, let's not be silly...Yeah you did. 'They didnt say 'its gonna take 6 months' and ended up 2 years...' That's that. Happy?
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No reason to be bitter about, i said 'argue'. I claimed it and was wrong, but it wasn't a retort to you making the claim, i made the claim first and YOU argued it. And yeah you were right, my claim was false? Happy :naughty:
 
Well I for 4 (or is it 5? or 6?) agree with both of Laivasse's original quotes about Doug being revisionist and trying to blame us for interpreting Valve's words exactly as they were laid out originally.

Also: Portal is a 3-hour game at most. 5 hours? Come ON.
 
Well it depends, the majority of people who buy games will never leave a comment about it, you would be surprised at the sheer number of people I find never complete games, even really short ones, I know people who came into the FPS genre for the first time with the orange box, and had to spread Portal over 2-3 evenings, other factors include time, some people only get to play an hour or two each night, the audience has changed alot in the last couple of years.

And yes they do change what they say alot, but alot of these comments are fairly insignificant, those of us who sit on these forums analysing them arnt exactly influential in the grand scheme of things, Doug could claim he had sex with the loch ness monster and it isnt really gonna effect the sales.
 
Lobster said:
Well it depends, the majority of people who buy games will never leave a comment about it, you would be surprised at the sheer number of people I find never complete games, even really short ones, I know people who came into the FPS genre for the first time with the orange box, and had to spread Portal over 2-3 evenings, other factors include time, some people only get to play an hour or two each night, the audience has changed alot in the last couple of years.
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I think on balance Portal was the right length, I just wish the tutorial hadn't been half the game.

But Doug is wrong when he claims Portal is a 5-hour game.

And only being able to play for an hour every day doesn't make a difference to how long the game is. The levels are cut down into 30 second to 10 minute (at most) segments with the autosave kicking in regularly.

I don't really understand why he had to try to put the blame on a name misconception anyway. The vast majority of people buying the Episodes are happy with what they're getting, even if they're coming out more slowly than originally claimed. I for one am happy to wait longer if they are going to be better every time. It's not like it's DNF proportions where you're waiting and waiting and you're not even sure if what you're waiting for will even be any good by the time you get it, if you get it.
 
chimpmunk said:
"What's cool with episodic content is that we will be able do deliver a new game every six month"

-Gabe Newell
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Enough said. Lombardi is saying 'Episodic' was the wrong word. Valve have not lived up to the original concept of Episodic delivery. Back then it was going to change the way games were delivered! It obviously hasn't panned out like that (By the way what happened to SIN Episodes?!). Gabe must have been on something when he spoke of new HL2 content every 6 months :cheese:

But for me the length between releases & the length of each release is not that important. I've never been left feeling short changed by Valve that's for sure. EP1 was well priced & the Orange box was bargain of the decade! EP2, TF2 & Portal in one package for about $50!! Makes you wonder why Valve felt the need to bundle TF2 & Portal into the bargain. Did they do so to bulster EP2? Maybe they had already excepted that Episodic content was a failure?

At the end of the day we all expect high quality from Valve & we have done since HL1 raised the bar quite dramatically for the FPS genre. Valve have been trying to live up to that standard ever since. They did quite succsefully with HL2 but I think it's gone off the boil a bit since then. The Episodes have been great but Valve's flare seems to have gone into TF2, Portal & Left 4 Dead much more than the Episodes.
 
SiN Episodes died.
Smigit said:
HL is what it is for the gameplay and plot and no amount of persuasion will convince me they couldn't have created as good a game on a 3rd party engine.
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For me, Half Life 2 and Source are the same thing. Maybe they could have created as good a game, but the engine and it's aesthetic is part of the game for me.
 
Operational said:
I disagree. For starters the people who work on the Engine are different from those who work on Level Design, Story, Pacing, etc. I also think the smaller episodes are quicker to make. For Episodes Valve's testing can be iterated quicker and any changes don't effect as much. I think the quality and tightness of the Episodes benefit from this as well.
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Yes they are different staff members but you can't start building anything until you have an engine. If the tech takes several years then it's several years before you can implement anything. Sure you can have guys working on other things too in the mean time but it's not uncommon as far as I'm aware for the full team to get involved only once the tech part of the project starts reaching a usable state.

Also yeah, maybe the three episodes are a *bit* quicker but ultimately compared to the turn around of other developers it's still nothing special speed wise. Cut out engine maintanence and I still feel they can save a lot of time. Note multiple releases mean multiple testing phases and deadlines and all the like. Having a single game would mean theres less interruptions due to a release every 18 months and IMHO it would be more efficient in the long run, especially for a company like Valve that have such stringent quality control.

Yes episodes have been a bit faster to release 3 than it was to release HL2...my point is if they dropped the engine development and didn't have issues such as code leaks then the single game should not take 5 years to make and should result in a time line thats shorter than that to release three seperate releases.

KineticAesthetic said:
SiN Episodes died.

For me, Half Life 2 and Source are the same thing. Maybe they could have created as good a game, but the engine and it's aesthetic is part of the game for me.
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I think that HL2 is about the story and character interaction. The combat itself can be done on any engine, yes even the physics. Something such as the facial animations are probably the one thing I think you may want to port into another engine as it's IMHO the one area Steam really dominates over the competition. Besides that I don't see what source offers tech wise that other engines aren't and nor do I see why HL wuld be any less a game if it wasn't on source.

Don't forget HL1 was built on a modified ID Software engine and no one complained.
 
dogboy73 said:
Makes you wonder why Valve felt the need to bundle TF2 & Portal into the bargain. Did they do so to bulster EP2? Maybe they had already excepted that Episodic content was a failure?
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The Orange Box was born out of a timing coincidence, all three games were going to be ready at roughly the same time so they thought it made sense to combine them into one package.
Smigit said:
Yes they are different staff members but you can't start building anything until you have an engine. If the tech takes several years then it's several years before you can implement anything.
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You're underestimating how much "pen and paper" designing goes on before implementation and what you can do without the engine being *completely* finished.

Even if what you say is true it would only be a benefit to Episodic delivery. The engine guys would be working on advancements for the next episode while everyone else would be working on the content for the current episode.

Yes episodes have been a bit faster to release 3 than it was to release HL2...my point is if they dropped the engine development and didn't have issues such as code leaks then the single game should not take 5 years to make and should result in a time line thats shorter than that to release three seperate releases.
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my point is if they dropped the engine development
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dropped the engine development
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Are you serious?
 
dogboy73 said:
Enough said. Lombardi is saying 'Episodic' was the wrong word. Valve have not lived up to the original concept of Episodic delivery. Back then it was going to change the way games were delivered! It obviously hasn't panned out like that (By the way what happened to SIN Episodes?!). Gabe must have been on something when he spoke of new HL2 content every 6 months :cheese:

But for me the length between releases & the length of each release is not that important. I've never been left feeling short changed by Valve that's for sure. EP1 was well priced & the Orange box was bargain of the decade! EP2, TF2 & Portal in one package for about $50!! Makes you wonder why Valve felt the need to bundle TF2 & Portal into the bargain. Did they do so to bulster EP2? Maybe they had already excepted that Episodic content was a failure?

At the end of the day we all expect high quality from Valve & we have done since HL1 raised the bar quite dramatically for the FPS genre. Valve have been trying to live up to that standard ever since. They did quite succsefully with HL2 but I think it's gone off the boil a bit since then. The Episodes have been great but Valve's flare seems to have gone into TF2, Portal & Left 4 Dead much more than the Episodes.
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I'm not sure why Gabe or Doug would say 6 months, and i don't even remember hearing this announcment when it came out, but i bet if i did hear it, i would think that seems pretty short. So clearly they turned out wrong, lets leave it at that, no need to attack them because they made a pretty-off estimate. besides, i don't think they were speaking confidently at all about that, they are pretty aware of how bad they are with releases and timing.

"think they put the episodes in with tf2 and portal because they knew it was a failure?" Wow, ok, first off, unless you are just quite unhappy with the way the episodes play out, they were not a failure. just because they said 6 months and didnt live up to it, which 6 months is a stupid thing for them to announce AND a stupid thing for the fans to actually believe, which you seemed pretty latched on to.

The episodes are doing quite well, i don't know where you have been. Episode 1 wasn't what episode content shouldve been completely because there wasn't a lot new, but it continued the story and was extremely fun. Episode 2 introduced so many new things, and really went deep with the story. A valve employee cant attend an interview without questions pertaining to episode 3. Clearly, people want the game, and are excited for it, so they aren't failure TO MOST PEOPLE, but im sorry they are a faulire to YOU.
 
I've always hoped that once they have completed the "Episodes" that they will combine all 3 of them and create the "Aftermath". If they were all stuck together then it would make a full, epic game. However they deliver the games to us, we can pretty much guarantee the quality and detail will always be there, even if we do have to wait a little longer. :)
 
Fiberawptic said:
I'm not sure why Gabe or Doug would say 6 months, and i don't even remember hearing this announcment when it came out, but i bet if i did hear it, i would think that seems pretty short. So clearly they turned out wrong, lets leave it at that, no need to attack them because they made a pretty-off estimate. besides, i don't think they were speaking confidently at all about that, they are pretty aware of how bad they are with releases and timing.

"think they put the episodes in with tf2 and portal because they knew it was a failure?" Wow, ok, first off, unless you are just quite unhappy with the way the episodes play out, they were not a failure. just because they said 6 months and didnt live up to it, which 6 months is a stupid thing for them to announce AND a stupid thing for the fans to actually believe, which you seemed pretty latched on to.

The episodes are doing quite well, i don't know where you have been. Episode 1 wasn't what episode content shouldve been completely because there wasn't a lot new, but it continued the story and was extremely fun. Episode 2 introduced so many new things, and really went deep with the story. A valve employee cant attend an interview without questions pertaining to episode 3. Clearly, people want the game, and are excited for it, so they aren't failure TO MOST PEOPLE, but im sorry they are a faulire to YOU.
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Since when does the admission that Valve kind of screwed up with episode delivery equate to thinking they're a failure?

Man, I love the episodes. I eagerly anticipate every one. But if I'm honest, I'd prefer a full-fledged title. You may be getting Valve content on a more regular basis, but you're not getting an equivalent of HL2, and I'd be more than willing to wait a few more years for a full sequel if it offers another landmark experience.
 
Fiberawptic said:
"think they put the episodes in with tf2 and portal because they knew it was a failure?"

First off, unless you are just quite unhappy with the way the episodes play out, they were not a failure. just because they said 6 months and didnt live up to it, which 6 months is a stupid thing for them to announce AND a stupid thing for the fans to actually believe, which you seemed pretty latched on to.
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Are you kidding? We're on Valve time here & we all know it. Far from being latched on I always thought the new content every 6 months idea was pretty far fetched but Valve said it not me (anyone got that particular interview to hand BTW?). Also when I spoke of EP2 being a failure I was referring to the time frame of the release not the quality of the game. As I said before I've never felt short changed from anything Valve have put out. EP2 was hugely enjoyable if a lot short & on the easy side (even on the hard setting). But clearly Episodic content was meant to appear just a tad quicker than it has been. That's at least what we were originally lead to believe & also now why Lombardi is saying it was the wrong word to use. I'm not bothered either way. I'm happy for EP3 to take as long as Valve think it needs to take. I want it to go out on a high not a whimper.
 
dogboy73 said:
Are you kidding? We're on Valve time here & we all know it. Far from being latched on I always thought the new content every 6 months idea was pretty far fetched but Valve said it not me (anyone got that particular interview to hand BTW?). Also when I spoke of EP2 being a failure I was referring to the time frame of the release not the quality of the game. As I said before I've never felt short changed from anything Valve have put out. EP2 was hugely enjoyable if a lot short & on the easy side (even on the hard setting). But clearly Episodic content was meant to appear just a tad quicker than it has been. That's at least what we were originally lead to believe & also now why Lombardi is saying it was the wrong word to use. I'm not bothered either way. I'm happy for EP3 to take as long as Valve think it needs to take. I want it to go out on a high not a whimper.
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Well, its quite fine to say "valve failed to deliver the episodic content at there 6-month estimate" but i was mainly referring to the fact that you said they made the orange box with episode 2, so that it could depend on the anticipation of portal and tf2. Like saying that you thought episode 2 was going to flop so they packed it in with other games so it wouldn't. But to be completely honest, Episode 2, with tf2, is what helped the orange box sell a lot at the beginning of release. Portal earned it hype after people played the game, but episode 2 added the eagerness before the game was released. If anything, it would make more sense to say they added Episode 2 in the orange box so it would help TF2 and portal get attention, not the otherway around, just saying.

And like you said, whats more important is how the episodes turn out, which imo they are very good so far, i think episode 2 is the most 'solid' half life has ever been yet. So yeah...
 
Yeah, ep2 is the most story-driven detailed and mort beautiful hl game so far, imo
 
Mort beautiful, olololol.
 
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