Motivation Wanted.

[damijin]

Hey, I've been working on a map for about forever and a half, but I can never seem to stay interested long enough to finish it. I was hoping I could pitch the idea here, show a few screens, and if there is any enthusiasm about it, I would have a reason to get it done.

Basically I'm not terribly artistic, and I designed the map with gameplay in mind... not really a specific location. It didn't occur to me until pretty deep into the map that this would be a problem for doing things like... uh... deciding what the hell the structure you're fighting over is supposed to be, and doing a 3d skybox. Basically it's still all development textures.

Gameplay wise, the map was designed with "fresh" competitive gameplay in mind. In a traditional defusal map, the terrorists play offense and try to take over a bomb site, plant the bomb, then defend the bombsite.

That's all well and good, but I tried to come up with a slight change that could bend the dynamics of that gameplay.

What I decided on, was to use lighting features of the source engine to create a "blackout" room. Unlike the traditional defusal map, which has 2 points of interest (bombsite A and B), my map has 3 points of interest.

The third point is the "switch"

(the red button)

This can be turned off or on. The default is "on", which will look like this from outside the switch room

When the switch has been turned off, the white light inside the room dies, and the red light becomes brighter.

(Note: If you have a tip for how to keep that red light looking nice and bright red, but without a glow, tell me. The problem is I cant turn the glow off/on with a trigger, so the light always looks like it's kind of "on" even when it's off)

Anyway, there's a reason behind this switch. When it is turned off, the lights inside bomb site B will die, falling back on only dim red emergency lights and a single swinging spotlight that hovers right above the plant area so that the bomb cannot be hidden in the darkness.

Bombsite B with lights on:

Bombsite B with lights off (screenshot came out a little darker than actual in-game with relatively high gamma settings):

The idea behind this is pretty simple, if you take a look at an overview of the map:

You will see that bomb site B and the switch are on opposite sides of the map, diagonally. Pretty much as far as you can possibly get from each other. I feel that by doing this you open up new strategies. Terrorists can go to B and plant in the light, theres nothing stopping them. But in the dark, they have a significant camping advantage. To make it dark they would need to send at least one play to the switch to turn it off. However, if that person leaves the switch, CTs will have no problem turning it back on.

This means you have several options as a terrorist:

Plant A (no light options there)
Plant B in the light
Plant B in the dark, and defend the switch to keep it dark
Plant B in the dark, and leave the switch open

Well once the bomb has been planted CTs will need to assault bomb site B. They will now need to make a choice:

Do I have a enough time to turn the light on and get to B to defuse?
Do I have a team-mate closer to the light who can turn it on for me while I prepare to enter B?
Is the light already on?
What if I die while trying to turn the light on?

I have extensively tested the paths for CT and T to make sure that they intersect at appropriate locations during rushes, etc. There are also a hand full of things that can only be accomplished by skilled jumps or stacking to for team-play. For all gameplay purposes, the map works. The only thing I have to do is optimize and polish. This is the least fun part of the process for me...

Should I finish it?

 

[Dekstar]

That does actually look good yeah. I'd perhaps suggest some extra barriers in the grassy areas so players could possibly hide behind? Not too much but enough so that you don't get that whole sniper camp problem perhaps? But then I'm still not entirely sure on the scale so.

Other than that it looks really good, and could do well finished with a nice scene set (I'd perhaps do it in a chateau setting? Seems fitting) and some extra props shoved in for detail.

 

[Shinobi]

you can always take the easy way out and make it a paintball arena

 

[damijin]

the grass is actually very hilly... I can take a screenshot, but the barrier is built into the grass in the form of hills

Oh, and I had to pencil-in that bottom part because the roof has a texture since it's a low overhang... thing

 

[damijin]

These are all screenshots of that bottom area. As you can see there are some hills. T spawn is more than a full body height lower than the grass up in "no mans land" which would be the area between the top of the hill to the stairs/ramp.

It is a sniper area over there, you have an opportunity to hang back and snipe, but once you're up in no mans land you have to be ready to run the full distance, you'll have no cover until you reach the other side.

Luckily, because the hallway is fully enclosed and the hill is so tall, if a CT is hiding back near B or down those stairs, back there awping, they wont see you cross into the hallway. So they won't know which side you'll come up on, and they cant camp both sides at once from a good covered location (both sides being going straight up the main hill, or crossing over through the hallway).

This gives you a little more freedom as a T since they'll need two dedicated snipers over there to watch both sides.

 

[Para]

I have some thoughts, they are mainly from artistic point of view instead of gameplay so don't get shocked.

Screenshot 1:
I like this one the most. Since you have a pseudo environment going on in there (I mean: No general theme) you could turn this into a vista point of your map: Put a hand rail to the edge and come up with a reason for the player to look down from the edge. Proper reasons could be for example something like a waterfall or train tracks or anything like that.

Screenshot 2:
The elevated part between second floor and stairs look too thick for serving no purpose. If you want to keep the geometry as is, you could place a cafeteria or similar to this point of map and fill that excess space with all cafe-related stuff like glasses, mugs, espresso machine etc...basically stuff that goes boom when they get shot at. Then just place a good amount of chairs, desks and a counter to there and you have another area which actually looks like something.

Screenshot 3:
Add props for coolness. Pipes, analog counters, fuse box, ads, all that kind of stuff. Make the blocky walls look less blocky.

Screenshot 4:
This looks nice but it has a logic problem: Why is that ramp there? For some sort of truck that fills the cafeteria's stock I suggest above? Then where would it actually go from the grass? Should there be a non-accessable tunnel below on the far right as a continuation to such pathway (which you could then look at from the vista).


All in all, I believe that just by adding props should make the map much more interesting and more detailed. Same goes with the three btw, don't leave it alone, place a couple of rocks near its roots (as if it was standing on some of them) and raise the ground below the tree a bit to make it more dominant feature of that particular area. Also remember to add cables to lights, for example think how much cooler CS:S version of assault looks like just because of all those cables.

 

[damijin]

There is no environmental reasoning for any of the map's existance. I designed it with only gameplay in mind.

In my original sketch, it called for a downward spiral staircase adjacent to an upward curved ramp. When I actually went to build it, I realized I could not do this the way that I had want to, mostly the ramp. I could not figure out an easy way to make basically a 180 degree ring that sloped upward. So I invented the barrier between them to hide the fact that the ramp is not a ring, theres ramp parts dangling under there.

basically, I'm not experienced with hammer, I'm not a mapper, I just wanted to realize my design in the easiest (not most efficient) way possible.

It wasn't until I had realized my gameplay design that I noticed the fact that a real map has both geographical setting and solid gameplay. I smacked myself in the forehead a few times.

The original reasoning for the ramp was just because it looked nice on paper the way I had drawn it. I decided early in this project that I would deviate as little as possible from my original sketch, because I felt the original sketch had gameplay in mind, and altering it may lead to unexpected problems.

At this point, could the ramp be replaced by something else? Perhaps a straight ramp? or a set of stairs, or grass? Maybe. But it doesn't seem like enough of an issue for me to justify redoing that area.

I actually like the barrier. Not from an artistic point of view, but when one person is outside of B and the other is inside, it provides cover. I would not want to put a hand rail anywhere on it because I like the ability to jump from the stairs, to the divider, down to the ramp, and enter from the other door. It gives more mobility to the attacker, so the defender can't just watch one door the whole time.

Thanks for the tips though, those are some good ideas as far as the tree and some other things go. My friend suggested making the area like some complex in the mountains? Not sure. Mountains sound like an easy 3d skybox though.

 

[junks]

I'd like to feature your map on my new site, Mappersnation.com when it's completed, if you're interested.

 

[damijin]

I'd like to feature your map on my new site, Mappersnation.com when it's completed, if you're interested.

Well, that's a pretty cool reason for motivation. Thanks, and sure

 

[junks]

Great to hear!

 

[63]

I love you Damijin.

 

[Yorick]

I love Damijin and SixThree.

Looks good Dam, can't wait to play it. =)

 

[Unarmed]

I have the same problem..

As long as I work on a map that becomes significally different after a few hours of work I stay happy. But as soon as the map gets bothered with all the small detail and optimizing I ust get bored.

I work with several projects at once too keep this from happening. And if I think of something for one map, that doesnt fit, then maybe it will fit for another :S

im currently thinking of releaseing a compilation of my maps that came real close to finnishing but never got finnished, since I nowadays can find the motivation to finnish them wich I lacked before..

Maybe I will... yet I knwo the feeling...

 

[Dekstar]

I'd like to see this map set at dusk/night preferably. Put those lights to good use. Also make the spotlights overlooking the grassland be shootable. That'd be great.

EDIT: What's the status on multiplayer AI now? Like birds flying around?

 

[Unarmed]

No... like... nonexistand as always,,

 

[Para]

In my original sketch, it called for a downward spiral staircase adjacent to an upward curved ramp. When I actually went to build it, I realized I could not do this the way that I had want to, mostly the ramp. I could not figure out an easy way to make basically a 180 degree ring that sloped upward. So I invented the barrier between them to hide the fact that the ramp is not a ring, theres ramp parts dangling under there.

Ah, limiting tools (or limited skillset or both)...I have an idea how you could do it but since I can't run Hammer (damn this XP64) I can't show you how to do it in Hammer itself but there's a workaround which people use to do arcs:

First, make a cylinder with several sections (uhm, the "pie" parts or slices). Each "pie" will of course be a stair step. To help yourself in following steps, use a number that's dividable either by 2 or 4. If you use 2, you only need to make 90 degrees worth of stairs, if you use 4, you need to make only 45 degrees worth of stairs so it'll be a time saver.

Lets assume you decided to use a number dividable by four (24 is such a number meaning 6 steps per 45 degrees). Now comes to tricky part, you have to be able to imagine a center point for the cylinder and then create a bunch of triangular primitives which you place carefully to match the edges of each slice. Note that if you use cubes you have to remove one of the corners by either just removing the whole edge or carving it...up to you really.

When you've done six stairs by this way, elevate them one fourth of the amount of the total elevation you want the stairs to give, select all, group them, copy-paste group, rotate new group and place it where it should be, group these new two groups (groups in groups ftw) and repeat the procedure. You should now have 24 even looking triangular steps taking the person upwards in a nice 180 degree upward sloping ring.

Also note: Since you're using triangles you don't have to make them real steps but you can actually snap them together to form a smooth ramp. The reason for this is that triangular polygons are always planar meaning that no matter where you pull the corners, they're always flat and will render properly. This will mess the other polies of those primitives though and you actually need to use two triangles per "stair" but the end result should be worth it.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

(Hammer works fine under XP64)

 

[Para]

No it doesn't, at least not on my config. Tried a week ago and I doubt it'll magically wakes up to life if I tried it now since there's been no updates.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

tried this?

 

[Para]

Nope, tried it and now it works. Thanks.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

\o/

 

[-Psy-]

Why is there so little light coming from those hanging fixtures?

 

[Crispy]

Wow! I really like the concept (nothing like mixing it up a little, especially if it's done well). I agree with Dekstar that having a lower ambient light will help explain why Bomb B needs lights on (humans like natural light so most rooms have windows).

As for the ramp? Disabled access, anyone?

And for the theme, if you have a cafeteria, you could make your map a museum or something. Bombsite B could be an exhibition room (replace the crates with some XXL priceless ming vases or massive sculptures; have the light hanging over a glass exhibition case) or a backroom for storing the rest of the museum collection not currently on display. Bombsite A could be a securicor van filled with priceless paintings... or an outdoor scupture exhibit... or something

Anyway when you get this done be sure to post it here on HL2.net so we can download the map and help you get it running on some custom servers. Also be sure to submit it to Interlopers.net, they feature custom maps on their front page.

 

[damijin]

that's a pretty good idea crispy, I'll try that.

edit: and yes, in my own mind I always justified the ramp as disabled access for terrorists with disabilities

edit2: Not that it makes any sense considering that the ramp leads up from a huge hill of grass that they wouldn't be able to taverse XD

 

[Para]

Response to your edit2...well it does make sense if you do what I suggested. The part about inaccessable pathway below to the vista.

 

[Unarmed]

de_piranesi comes with a few nifty props for musem use...

 

[damijin]

It's starting to come together. I'm using a lot of piranesi textures. Lots of marble, wood, etc. I like the look. I'm not sure if I'll give it a real theme or not with props and such. Right now I look at it as kind of a "de_mill" type map, where it's just some place that exists with not much reason for existing.

But the piranesi textures are giving it a nice feel, thanks guys

 

[Unarmed]

de_dontaskwhereorwhy. I see it happening.

 

[damijin]

that's an awesome name!

maybe for my next map though, blackout fits this one pretty well

 

[Unarmed]

haha... My maps folders is filled with those names...

I released a beta of a map called cs_nonamesofar so I guess it sits in a few other peoples folders too