a moral/ethical question regarding the bannings

C

cabe

Guest
i originally posted this at steampowered.com's forums, however, as it seems this is too much of a hot topic for discussion over there, the thread was locked. :flame:

i've just gotten back from a week of thanksgiving vacation and was looking foreward to playing half life 2, however, i have discovered that my account has been disabled. there is only one reason i can think of:

i made the mistake of trying to install half life 2 with a widely circulated key on the internet. i admit that i should not have done this, but know that i fully intended to buy the game the next day (i'm a big half life fan and wanted the gordon box ;)) i'm not an evil software pirate, i was just up late and have no credit card. so, with no other way to get hl2 at the time, i figured why not give it a shot?

i DID legitimately purchase a copy of half life 2; and, if the account was disabled due to the 'bad' cd key, it seems unfair that the account wasn't disabled until AFTER i paid my $59.11 for a game which is now useless to me. (now how does THAT work!)

i just feel like there's some guy looking at a listing of all of the valve accounts thinking to himself:

"ok, now lets see.. he tried to use a fake cd key.. lets *wait* until he buys some more of our stuff, and then we can ban his account later on, so he'll have to buy it all again and we'll make a killing!!"

this kind of behaviour does not instill much trust in the customer, valve.




i will probably exchange the game for a new one at the store as i figure i've got basically no chance of getting my account back, and it won't be TOO great a loss as all i had registered to that account was CZ (which CS:S is, anyway) and just making a new steam account. that makes me feel a little better.

i'm just looking for you guys' opinions on the situation; has valve made the right decision?
 
There's no doubt that for many this will seem an extremely draconian method of Valve protecting their material. Off course they have a right to do that & I don't for a second condone games piracy (Games are not that expensive to be honest are they?). But the whole Steam thing is all about control & the fact that it hits legit customers in some cases as hard as the pirates can only serve to alienate at least a percentage of Valve's loyal fan base. Off course, If you have no problems as a result of these measures then you'll have nothing to complain about but the tighter the control the more problems your likely to run into & then you'll be moaning just like everyone else. People with no problems with Steam/HL2 are like people who say traffic wardens are just doing their jobs ............... Right up until they get a ticket!

I don't think games piracy is anywhere near as big a problem as the industry makes out. Games fans will always buy games & pirates will always try to pirate games but if they had no intention of buying in the first place then where are the sales lost? It's the same with the music industry. They've been complaining, Ever since MP3 file sharing sites started springing up on the net, that this would kill the industry. Yesterday there was a report out on BBC news that music sales have been steadily on the increase for the last 4 years. In fact, this year has seen the biggest sales so far this century!! So what's the problem? Illegal MP3 download sites clearly didn't have any negative effects on music sales & it's clear now that the industry got themselves into a big flap over nothing! It's going to turn out to be exactly the same with games.
 
You used a bad key, deliberately and with full knowledge of what it was. What is there to discuss?

Valve did a database search on Steam accounts with that key, and disabled them all.
 
Pi Mu Rho said:
You used a bad key, deliberately and with full knowledge of what it was. What is there to discuss?
Click to expand...
Yeah! You've been tumbled! despite the fact that you have actually bought the damn game!!! :O

"You citizen. Come with me!!"

Do you realise, the combine are actually a metaphor for Steam!!
 
The fact that he bought the game is irrelevant.

He tried to illegally obtain the game. The consequences are fully deserved.
 
Pi Mu Rho said:
The fact that he bought the game is irrelevant.

He tried to illegally obtain the game. The consequences are fully deserved.
Click to expand...
Fair enough.

 
Pi Mu Rho said:
He tried to illegally obtain the game. The consequences are fully deserved.
Click to expand...

Wholeheartedly agree. Props to valve for using a copy protections ystem that works, f software pirates, hackers, warez kiddies, and every other THIEF (thats what you are no matter what you call yourself) out there.

Got what you deserved, just like everyone else who obtained the game illegally.
 
Why would you use an illegal key if you bought the game or going to buy the game?
 
Then vote with your wallet and don't buy it. Complaining on a message board isn't going to change anything.

It's funny, given the amount of Steam sales of HL2 that Valve have had, it looks like it doesn't bother most people.

Oh, and to answer your query about 10-15 years down the line, Valve will patch out the authentication requirement when a game has reached end-of-life.
 
some times when there is no demo people will download a copy just to see how it plays with their system , intending to buy a copy if it runs ok.
i didnt do so with halflife 2 and bought the game as soon as it came out.

i dont know why they ban people when they do buy the game. does that mean they cant buy from valve ever again.
Do they then tell other makers of games that they cant play their games too if they buy them. how far will it go in future
 
TEDR said:
some times when there is no demo people will download a copy just to see how it plays with their system , intending to buy a copy if it runs ok.
i didnt do so with halflife 2 and bought the game as soon as it came out.

i dont know why they ban people when they do buy the game. does that mean they cant buy from valve ever again.
Do they then tell other makers of games that they cant play their games too if they buy them. how far will it go in future
Click to expand...
How anyone builds up the courage/nerve to enter an illegal code into an online authentication system is beyond me.. :x

You're just asking for it.
 
i bought the game and it works , so there i just explaining what some people do and how far will the games industry will go in the future.
 
Oh I know, I should have quoted the thread starter, sorry. I just don't understand how anyone could take that risk given that it is a game they are most certainly buying..

Valve is a little to blame for certain by not releasing a demo though.
 
I personally always DL a warez copy of a game to see how it runs and to see if I like it. I didn't bother with HL2 as I got a free ATI coupon.

btw can everyone taking the moral high ground on the issue of DL warez or using illegal keys (under any circumstance) say they never DL illegal mp3s and always run a legit and fully paid for copy of windows? The reason I ask is cos I was recently having this very discussion on another forum and some of the idiots admitted to doing either or both. Ofcourse they didn't see it as theft when it came to the music industry or Microsoft :D
 
People are hypocritical like that. I have serious doubts that many, if any, people on this forum have a computer entirely free of illegal software or music or videos or whatnot. Or even legally iffy things like Divx software. But once it's their favourite game, and they paid for it, by god they're getting on that pedestal!
 
I'm certainly not taking any moral high ground ;)

I'm just talking about common sense. You're simply taking too much of a risk with online verification, especially since the control of the verification is subject to change (as we've seen with the banning of keys). I seriously doubt that the musicians are going to validate any of the content on my HDD (MS is trying to change that though).
 
Pestul said:
I'm certainly not taking any moral high ground ;)

I'm just talking about common sense. You're simply taking too much of a risk with online verification, especially since the control of the verification is subject to change (as we've seen with the banning of keys). I seriously doubt that the musicians are going to validate any of the content on my HDD (MS is trying to change that though).
Click to expand...

I was more referring to the attitude of any kind of warez download is theft and you should burn in hell type of post. And you're right, it is common sense when it comes to online verification. ( Although I'm sure I've done a few things in my time that might fall outside the scope of common sense ;) )
 
barabis said:
I personally always DL a warez copy of a game to see how it runs and to see if I like it. I didn't bother with HL2 as I got a free ATI coupon.

btw can everyone taking the moral high ground on the issue of DL warez or using illegal keys (under any circumstance) say they never DL illegal mp3s and always run a legit and fully paid for copy of windows? The reason I ask is cos I was recently having this very discussion on another forum and some of the idiots admitted to doing either or both. Ofcourse they didn't see it as theft when it came to the music industry or Microsoft :D
Click to expand...

It's not about high or low ground. This is merely an issue of taking responsibility for your actions. If you choose to drive 80mph on the highway, it's pretty stupid to blame a policeman for giving you a ticket. You chose to take a risk and got burned. Accept the punishment and move on. People who got burned over this Valve thing took a chance that didn't pan out. I think they should feel fortunate it didn't cost them more than the price of a game.
 
Oh, and to answer your query about 10-15 years down the line, Valve will patch out the authentication requirement when a game has reached end-of-life.
Click to expand...

The point is, a single-player game should be a "single-player" game. That is, one that is not dependant on an outside source such as the internet, regardless of how many people in the world have the internet.

As for "complaining" on a message borad, I want to state my opinion. If you feal I have made it, then fine, I'm done.

Valve can do what this wish, and yes, I will vote with my wallet. When HL3 comes around, I will have learned my lesson and not get it.

Thanks. I'm done here.


C.H.
 
The definition of "single player" is a game played by one person, not a game that is played without being connected to the internet.
 
An Internet connection is a *requirement* for the game. As far as I'm concerned, it's no different than saying you need a DX9 graphics card to play another game (not HL2 obviously). I've always looked at it that way. They're not cheating anyone..
 
mongoloido said:
It's not about high or low ground. This is merely an issue of taking responsibility for your actions. If you choose to drive 80mph on the highway, it's pretty stupid to blame a policeman for giving you a ticket. You chose to take a risk and got burned. Accept the punishment and move on. People who got burned over this Valve thing took a chance that didn't pan out. I think they should feel fortunate it didn't cost them more than the price of a game.
Click to expand...

I'm not disputing the main thrust of this topic. The original poster used an illegal key, got caught, even though he bought the retail version of the game he was technically using an illegal version of the game so he got banned (whether this is harsh on the part of Valve is another matter).
I was just curious as to how far ppl's moral stance went in regards to illegal software when I read the attitude of the response below because I have found this attitude to be quite common place. Agreed it was a bit off-topic on my part.

klaviernista said:
Wholeheartedly agree. Props to valve for using a copy protections ystem that works, f software pirates, hackers, warez kiddies, and every other THIEF (thats what you are no matter what you call yourself) out there.

Got what you deserved, just like everyone else who obtained the game illegally.
Click to expand...
 
klaviernista said:
Wholeheartedly agree. Props to valve for using a copy protections ystem that works, f software pirates, hackers, warez kiddies, and every other THIEF (thats what you are no matter what you call yourself) out there.

Got what you deserved, just like everyone else who obtained the game illegally.
Click to expand...
but see, i didn't obtain the game illigally. i didn't even have bad intentions. and to be honest, it would have been a lot more FAIR (even though being within the law doesn't necessarily mean one must be fair) if just the key had been disabled. heck, i could even understand banning the account right after trying to use the bad key, but *waiting* until i put in a new, totally legitimate key, and THEN banning the account is just absurd. i mean think about it, i'm out $59.11 for HL2, and however much i paid for CZ back when i did, and all for just *trying* (unsucsessfully) to test out a game before buying it, even when i bought the game the next day!

the part that really gets me is the wait. why didn't they ban the account immidiately? why do they wait until i HAVE bought the game, and only THEN disable the account? are they trying to teach a lesson?

while they may intend for the lesson to be "dont steal from valve!", i think those who make a hobby of it will find a way to play without paying anyway, and the lesson to those who did buy the game, and are in a situation such as mine is "don't trust valve!"

i'm not arguing the legality, just the ethics. is it right to punish someone for trying to steal a game which they legally own?
 
is it right to punish someone for trying to steal a game which they legally own?
Click to expand...

Yes.

And Valve didn't wait for you to put in a legit key before banning your account - it was just a case of timing.
 
barabis said:
he was technically using an illegal version of the game so he got banned
Click to expand...
when i put in the 'bad' cd key, half life 2 would not install. when i put in the cd key from my purchased copy, install went flawlessly. i was using a legitimately purchased version of the game, no matter which way you cut it!

the way valve acted in this situation makes me feel like my account has been banned for trying to steal a copy of a game which i already own! (i mean, i DO own a legit copy of the game, dont i)
 
you could take the game back to shop if you bought it from shop . replace it with a new one saying the disc is faulty
 
cabe said:
when i put in the 'bad' cd key, half life 2 would not install. when i put in the cd key from my purchased copy, install went flawlessly. i was using a legitimately purchased version of the game, no matter which way you cut it!

the way valve acted in this situation makes me feel like my account has been banned for trying to steal a copy of a game which i already own! (i mean, i DO own a legit copy of the game, dont i)
Click to expand...

my personal take on all of this is that Valve have acted harshly, legally maybe but harshly. You have my sympathies.
 
Pi Mu Rho said:
Yes.

And Valve didn't wait for you to put in a legit key before banning your account - it was just a case of timing.
Click to expand...
fair enough. so, since it was just a case of timing, i should be expecting that HL2 cd key back, right? or does valve expect me to buy two copies of the same game just so i can play at all?

i think it would be seen as good faith move by valve if they were to return all of the legit HL2 keys which were 'accidentally' banned.
 
say if you went to a shop one day and try to steal some bread, got caught . the next day you went to shop and bought the bread. and paid for it , then someone tells u because u tried to steal the bread the other day, They would then take the bread which u bought that day off you and keep the money.

i dont see the legality in that . any lawers got any thing on it?
 
i agree. if valve doesn't return the disabled HL2 keys to those in a situation such as mine, i think it's a bit of a low blow. (if the banning of accounts like mine was a mistake, which is a possibility)

..and for anyone ready to mount his moral high-horse; let he who has never downloaded an illegal mp3 throw the first stone.
 
That analogy doesn't hold up.

If you got caught stealing bread, it's unlikely that the shop would allow you back in, and it's their right to refuse you.

Just like Valve with Steam...
 
ok say you picked up a cd walked out the shop and security comes running up to arrrest u . you then pay for the cd and they take cd off u and keep money.

either way its illegal and wont stand in court.

i saw some program where 3 lads stole some milk and the cops caught them . they were going to the cells but then one lads says he would pay for the lots and they were told by cops ok and let off. i.e they payed after they stole

second if you read my post correct the person did buy the bread and paid and they took it off him just like cabe .

they let him buy the game and took the money
 
the shop said your welcome back to buy bread. just that we take it off you and keep your money
 
you download mp3's if you then buy the cd from shop they take the money from u and keep cd.
 
cabe said:
i originally posted this at steampowered.com's forums, however, as it seems this is too much of a hot topic for discussion over there, the thread was locked. :flame:

i've just gotten back from a week of thanksgiving vacation and was looking foreward to playing half life 2, however, i have discovered that my account has been disabled. there is only one reason i can think of:

i made the mistake of trying to install half life 2 with a widely circulated key on the internet. i admit that i should not have done this, but know that i fully intended to buy the game the next day (i'm a big half life fan and wanted the gordon box ;)) i'm not an evil software pirate, i was just up late and have no credit card. so, with no other way to get hl2 at the time, i figured why not give it a shot?

i DID legitimately purchase a copy of half life 2; and, if the account was disabled due to the 'bad' cd key, it seems unfair that the account wasn't disabled until AFTER i paid my $59.11 for a game which is now useless to me. (now how does THAT work!)

i just feel like there's some guy looking at a listing of all of the valve accounts thinking to himself:

"ok, now lets see.. he tried to use a fake cd key.. lets *wait* until he buys some more of our stuff, and then we can ban his account later on, so he'll have to buy it all again and we'll make a killing!!"

this kind of behaviour does not instill much trust in the customer, valve.




i will probably exchange the game for a new one at the store as i figure i've got basically no chance of getting my account back, and it won't be TOO great a loss as all i had registered to that account was CZ (which CS:S is, anyway) and just making a new steam account. that makes me feel a little better.

i'm just looking for you guys' opinions on the situation; has valve made the right decision?
Click to expand...
You really haven't a leg to stand on, I'm with Valve on this one.
 
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