a moral/ethical question regarding the bannings

And the moral lesson is dont steal something if you intend to buy it later.........
 
if you really bought a new cooy, you can make a new account and install it on that one with the new key.
 
Audiophile said:
if you really bought a new cooy, you can make a new account and install it on that one with the new key.
Click to expand...

wont the key be flagged now its been used on a banned account?
 
will the key even work since it's already been registered to an account?
 
oh i guess not, i thought you got banned before you had the chance to install with the new key.

email valve bout this one, but i dont think they'll be too sympathetic
 
Im pretty sure I read that you could infact create a new account with the legit key on the steam forums.

Cant confirm it though. Give it a shot.


You may have to contact valves customer service to have the key "unassigned".
 
Obviously, some people are having problems with the concept of theft here.

If you knowingly use an illegal method to attempt to acquire the game, then you are attempting to steal it, regardless of whether or not you intend to buy it later on. Future intentions are utterly irrelevant.

If you then use the same account to register your newly-bought, legitimate copy then what do you expect to happen? Valve bar the account, not your individual games. Aside from anything else, you deserve it for paddling around in the shallow end of the gene pool!
 
so if the account is barred, i can re-register the games with a new account? i didn't think this was the case, but if so, then i'm not nearly as angry at valve since the banning becomes more of an inconvenience rather than a substantial monetary loss.

as far as what i expected to happen when i registered a legit copy with the account used to attempt registration with the 'bad' key:

nothing. valve got what they wanted -- a paid for copy of half life 2. i certainly didn't get it for free.

but honestly, if valve wants to bar the accounts, they should have done it immidiatly. you've got to admit, it was a low blow for them to wait until a copy of HL2 was legitimately bought and registered, and then ban the account. also, i don't think 'just bad timing' isn't much of a justification, as im sure it wouldnt have been hard to scan their database for all the users with legit copies of HL2 and exclude them from the bannings.

valve is taking justice into their own hands, and that is against the law.

i'll go back to the bread example; say i went to the grocery store and tried to steal a loaf. they caught me, but then i said i'd pay for it. "OK" they said, as i handed them my money for the bread. then, as i'm walking through the door, the store manager grabs the loaf from my hand and slams the door shut.

NOW who has stolen!
 
Valve is not taking justice into their own hands - you stole, or attempted to steal from them, for which they disabled your account. They are perfectly entitled to do this. The fact that you went out and bought HL2 afterwards is not relevant.

The closing of your account was a timed thing - thousands of other people also got banned at the same time. Why should Valve have to do you a favour by checking to see if you bought HL2? You attempted to steal from them.
If you were stupid enough to :

a) Attempt to steal HL2 using a compromised CD key
b) Expect to not receive some form of punishment if you got caught
c) Buy HL2 and install it on the same account that you tried to steal HL2 with

then you deserve every damn thing you got. You are in the wrong here. YOU. Not Valve. No-one forced you to steal HL2.
Now get over it. You got caught with your hands in the till, accept the punishment.
 
you're making me out to sound like i'm the scum of the earth. i assure you, i am not.

let he who has never downloaded an illegal mp3 throw the first stone.
Click to expand...
 
cabe said:
you're making me out to sound like i'm the scum of the earth. i assure you, i am not.
Click to expand...
No he's not, he's making you out to be a thief because thats what you are, you attempted to steal from Valve just because you couldn't wait or save up some money.

You brought it on yourself and you will find no sympathy here.
 
cabe said:
you're making me out to sound like i'm the scum of the earth. i assure you, i am not.
Click to expand...

I'm sure you're not.
However, you are making Valve out to be the villain of this piece, when they haven't done anything wrong.
 
The Dark Elf said:
No he's not, he's making you out to be a thief because thats what you are, you attempted to steal from Valve just because you couldn't wait or save up some money.

You brought it on yourself and you will find no sympathy here.
Click to expand...
the fact is that i didn't steal it, so what right does valve have to turn my $60 game into a useless set of coasters? what bugs me is that they let me go without repercussion, and then once i had bought their game they turned around and stabbed me in the back.

just because i attempt to do something bad doesn't give them the right to do whatever they want to with my account whenever they feel like it. sure it may be legal but it's not very ethical. valve sure isn't winning any brownie points with the customers.
 
well can't u just buy another copy and register on another account? or do they scan ur whole computer so every copy that u buy will be banned? that means u can never play even if u really want to pay for them i don't think valve would go that low tho
 
Did the "stolen" copy of the game function with the illegally obtained cd key? If not I would question the legality of banning 20,000 accounts. A more appropiate solution would have been to offer those 20,000 account holders the opportunity to purchase licenses.
 
well a punishment of like a fine of like 10 or 20 us dollars to unlock ur steam account should have done the job. That means the more u cheat or the more u try to hack the game the more u hav to pay to play the game if it gets out of control raise the fine :rolleyes:
 
jgruen said:
Did the "stolen" copy of the game function with the illegally obtained cd key? If not I would question the legality of banning 20,000 accounts. A more appropiate solution would have been to offer those 20,000 account holders the opportunity to purchase licenses.
Click to expand...
nope, game didn't function at all. (the game didnt even install) just said "this cd key is in use" and nothing more.
 
My question is, how do you think that you didn't try to steal from Valve? You downloaded the game (from steam I assume) then you try to use an illegal cd key that was found on the internet (legal ones cost $50 or so depending on the version from steam you get, or if you buy the game from a shop) By using that cd key from the internet that you did not pay for, you are in fact stealing at least $50 worth of IP (intellectual property) You have no right to cry about this situation. You stole, you were caught, you lose. Even if you did put that legal key in, Valve already had you targeted for theft. They then waited until the time when they decided to ban accounts and it just happend that you legally purchased HL2 and tried to use it before they banned everyone so then when your good key was used they were already coming down on you.
 
i'm not disputing that i tried to 'steal' from valve. i admit that. i'm saying that their punishment is too harsh. yes, that's right, i believe their punishment is too harsh; if you think i'm whining, what do you think about instituting the death penalty for shoplifting? i get the impression that some people think "if you tried to use the bad cd key, valve can do whatever the hell they want with you!"

that's just not right.

lets say i own a store and catch you stealing. do i have the right, then, (AFTER i caught you stealing) to take all of your money and kick you out the door?

valve already caught me stealing (i tried to use the key, but it didnt work). they didn't do anything about it. then, i bought a legit copy of half life 2. they accepted my money, disabled my game, and kicked my butt out onto the cold hard concrete.

[edit]
if valve didnt intentionally disable the accounts with legit hl2 keys, like mine, (some people are arguing that mine was just a case of bad timing) then they should reactivate the legit HL2 keys so they can be used with new accounts (although they can leave the accounts disabled).

losing the account is lesson enough; people wont try to mess with valve anymore, but paying sixty bucks for a disabled game will leave people feeling cheated and not willing to buy from valve again.
 
Aparently you don't understand what happend. Im 100% sure they didn't take your money on purpose. They banned your account because you used the bad key. Then being the fool you apparently are, you tried to register again on the same account that was targeted for trying to pirate. When the automated banning occured your valid cd key was registerd to your account but the banning program or however they do such a thing was already going to kill your account BEFORE you put in the good key. Try to e-mail Valve, i highly doubt they will change their ways but its worth a try...
 
I wonder how many of those accounts were banned because the legally purchased game wouldn't work.

I bought a copy of the Half Life 2 Collector's Edition. It didn't work on my system becuase the SecuROM copy protection had a problem with other software on my PC. Before I found this out I contacted Valve, Vivendi and every online forum I could find. I tried everything in every FAQ and every suggestion in every thread I could find. Nothing worked. I figure I easilly spent over 60 hours of my time trying to make that game work.

Since I felt completely disowned by both Valve and Vivendi in regards to this game, I started looking for other ways to get this game going. I was looking to download cracks or other keys to play the game. But since I've never done that, I wasn't sucessful and before I spent too much time on it I found out that I could return the game to Vivendi by just writing them a note and sending the game back to them. This was like pulling teeth to get out of them because as soon as I mentioned Half-Life 2 they would say its not supported yet and hang up on you and online support incidents weren't responded to.

If I hadn't found this information, I would have most likely found a crack or some other 'illegal' method of getting the game working and my Steam account would have most likely been banned. Valve isn't even talking to people whose accounts got banned and offering people no recourse in getting the game reinstated. How would that have been fair for my account to have been shut off as would have happened?

I will not buy any game that requires Steam going forward and I'd have a real tough time buying another game from Valve after this experience.
 
Activation sucks and there will always be legitimate owners who are screwed by the process. However, it's the warez kiddies and crackers who should take most of the blame, not the developers, who are just trying to stop a flood of profit-sapping piracy.

Whatever the case, HL2 will be properly cracked and it will be the legitimate owners who will be stuck with yet another layer of copy protection to contend with.
 
cabe said:
i originally posted this at steampowered.com's forums, however, as it seems this is too much of a hot topic for discussion over there, the thread was locked. :flame:

i've just gotten back from a week of thanksgiving vacation and was looking foreward to playing half life 2, however, i have discovered that my account has been disabled. there is only one reason i can think of:

i made the mistake of trying to install half life 2 with a widely circulated key on the internet. i admit that i should not have done this, but know that i fully intended to buy the game the next day (i'm a big half life fan and wanted the gordon box ;)) i'm not an evil software pirate, i was just up late and have no credit card. so, with no other way to get hl2 at the time, i figured why not give it a shot?

i DID legitimately purchase a copy of half life 2; and, if the account was disabled due to the 'bad' cd key, it seems unfair that the account wasn't disabled until AFTER i paid my $59.11 for a game which is now useless to me. (now how does THAT work!)

i just feel like there's some guy looking at a listing of all of the valve accounts thinking to himself:

"ok, now lets see.. he tried to use a fake cd key.. lets *wait* until he buys some more of our stuff, and then we can ban his account later on, so he'll have to buy it all again and we'll make a killing!!"

this kind of behaviour does not instill much trust in the customer, valve.




i will probably exchange the game for a new one at the store as i figure i've got basically no chance of getting my account back, and it won't be TOO great a loss as all i had registered to that account was CZ (which CS:S is, anyway) and just making a new steam account. that makes me feel a little better.

i'm just looking for you guys' opinions on the situation; has valve made the right decision?
Click to expand...


You and 19,999 other idiots. You want to steal from a company? Fine. But dont cry like a little bitch when you get caught and have to pay the consequences.
 
cabe said:
paying sixty bucks for a disabled game will leave people feeling cheated and not willing to buy from valve again.
Click to expand...

These are the people that stole, or attempted to steal from Valve in the first place. Hardly a great loss.
 
Pi Mu Rho said:
Hardly a great loss.
Click to expand...
Everyone's saying things like this, including Valve. Valve is willing to take small losses in many different areas, because they are all just "small losses."

They're willing to take the small loss of the consumers without internet connections. They're willing to take the small loss of those who they may have banned presumptuously. They're willing to take the small loss of those who they piss off with their draconian activation schemes, or their ridiculous on-disc SecuROM implementation. They're willing to take the small loss of those who do try to pirate their game, but who may be more likely to buy future Valve products after playing. I can go on.

All of these groups of consumers that they are so willing to alienate are "no big loss," because they are perceived small. Valve's product is so good, that Valve can alienate all of these people, right? Am I the only one who thinks that Valve's latest tactics are getting to be exactly like Microsoft's? As in: arrogant and over-protective? To put it simply, no regular game developer without a name/reputation as big as Valve's would be able to take this to quite this extent. The reason why Valve can get draconian and blow Steam up all our asses is only because HL2 was an immensely well-known release. Valve is arrogant, plan and simple. If I had known about Steam and all of this before I bought a retail copy of the game, I would have simply voted with my wallet for another product. But then I would have been no big loss, right?
 
Er, way to go completely off-track.

First, Valve didn't say anything of the sort. So basing your entire argument on Valve calling these groups "small losses" is just....silly.

The vast majority of the accounts banned were just set up to use the fake key/stolen credit card. Those people were absolutely no loss - they had no intention of buying the game. A very small minority were people like cabe - they tried to steal the game and then bought it. They're no great loss because they're such a small group. As for the rest of your rant - make a new thread and check your facts (i.e. SecuROM inclusion is down to VU, not Valve). You're not hijacking this one
 
well are they doing just the one account disabling meaning that they disable the accounts of the one that had attempted to gain half life 2 illegally or did they do a disabling where someone who had attempted to gain half life 2 illegally they ban over and over again no matter how many keys they buy on different accounts?

because i see that if they just disable the one account is quite reasonable since it is practically ending the service for them as it says in the EULA. I think a better approach would have been if you were caught hacking and/or cheating your steam account will be banned until you pay a unban fine to get it reactivated and each time you do this again your fine will go up. since only one cdkey per steam account.

But if Valve dsiables every account that the person make with a new cdkey that is going a bit too far I would say.

I personally don't like steam that much it's a bit of a hassle and i don't really like valve it's nothing personal but I just thought that there could have been other types of punishment rather than banning the whole steam account with every games on that account.
 
Just the accounts using the compromised key or stolen credit cards were banned.
 
If you steal your gonna get caught, cabe got caught and now he's complaining about it. He knew the risks, Valve have been doing this for a while, disabling accounts n such. Yet he still did it, the excuse that "it was late, I wanted it right now, this thing on my neck is getting bigger" just doesn't cut it.

cabe said:
i get the impression that some people think "if you tried to use the bad cd key, valve can do whatever the hell they want with you!"
Click to expand...

They disabled your account, your trying to act like a victim, yet it was YOUR OWN ACTIONS that caused this. You shouldn't have done it, you screwed yourself, don't assume whining about it on a forum is gonna bother them, there's nothing atall you can do about it, you tried to steal from them, you got caught, you got punished. Live with it.
 
Someone explain me this:

If you walk into a store and steal an item and are caught, the store owner has the right to press charges. You would then be prosecuted, you'd do your time, pay your fines, whatever. That's perfectly understandable.

Say, then, that after you are all cleaned up, you go back into the store and attempt to purchase the same item you tried to steal. The store owner may say, "Hey, you tried to steal from me a year ago. You aren't allowed in here anymore!" and kick you out. He has that right. But could he let you buy the item, and then take the item back and keep your money? No. He can only tell you you can't buy the item before you buy it.

With software, this seems like a totally different ballgame. The concept of the "license" introduced by the EULA seems to make the above analogy obsolete. Valve is simply exercising its right to terminate the license agreement at its own discretion.

Now, how is this not an ethical question? Sure, the original poster screwed himself with his actions, and if Valve decides he can no longer use any Valve products, so be it, they have the right to deny him that. But isn't this, in its own obscure way, abuse via the EULA? He should at least be entitled to his purchase amount back, before being banned from Valve products.
 
Can we stop with the analogies please? They don't work. It's not the same as buying a piece of physical property, or the same as buying from a store.

What you have bought from Valve is an account. The games that you purchased are tied to that account. If you try to steal from Valve, then they disable the account that you used. Simple, really.

Valve haven't decided that cabe can no longer use Valve products. They decided that the account that was used in an attempt to steal their products should no longer be active. That cabe chose to register a valid key with that account prior to it's closure is his fault, and his problem.

What Valve did was entirely correct, and entirely ethical.
 
GetCool said:
Someone explain me this:

If you walk into a store and steal an item and are caught, the store owner has the right to press charges. You would then be prosecuted, you'd do your time, pay your fines, whatever. That's perfectly understandable.

Say, then, that after you are all cleaned up, you go back into the store and attempt to purchase the same item you tried to steal. The store owner may say, "Hey, you tried to steal from me a year ago. You aren't allowed in here anymore!" and kick you out. He has that right. But could he let you buy the item, and then take the item back and keep your money? No. He can only tell you you can't buy the item before you buy it.

With software, this seems like a totally different ballgame. The concept of the "license" introduced by the EULA seems to make the above analogy obsolete. Valve is simply exercising its right to terminate the license agreement at its own discretion.

Now, how is this not an ethical question? Sure, the original poster screwed himself with his actions, and if Valve decides he can no longer use any Valve products, so be it, they have the right to deny him that. But isn't this, in its own obscure way, abuse via the EULA? He should at least be entitled to his purchase amount back, before being banned from Valve products.
Click to expand...
Well no, cause Valve continue to own the game, as you say, the licence is what he tried to steal and its entirely upto Valve what they do with it. You'll find that companies _have_ a right to take back a licence to something you bought that they own. All we, the end users have, is the right to use the licence, but the owner reserves the right to take that from us if a dispute arises. We're paying for the privildge to use it, at no time do we actually own any of it.

Anyway I remember it was made clear ages ago by Valve that they'd block accounts and anything attached to them, they kept to their word. So if he registered his retail version then its registered and gone now with the entire account.

If he's claiming its happened a second time, chances are he's not telling us the whole truth and the second one probably wasn't paid for.

IF you get caught, Valve will remove your steam account and _anything_ attached to it. They are allowed to do that and you infact agree to that by installing the software.

So yeah, he could try take this up with some authority on it if he wants, but he'll just be laughed at, Valve aren't stupid and you can bet the legal side of things are air tight. Some kid who tried to steal from them might aswell give up now cause he's not gonna win this one.
 
Pi Mu Rho said:
Can we stop with the analogies please? They don't work. It's not the same as buying a piece of physical property, or the same as buying from a store.
Click to expand...
If you paid attention, you'd realize that my point lies in my very use of the analogy. My point was that physical property and software licenses are not the same thing by virtue of the EULA.
What you have bought from Valve is an account. The games that you purchased are tied to that account. If you try to steal from Valve, then they disable the account that you used. Simple, really.
Click to expand...
Actually, what you purchase is a license for HL2, not an account. Your Steam account is the mechanism by which Valve may give/take software licenses.
Valve haven't decided that cabe can no longer use Valve products. They decided that the account that was used in an attempt to steal their products should no longer be active. That cabe chose to register a valid key with that account prior to it's closure is his fault, and his problem.
Click to expand...
Of course they did, and of course it was.
What Valve did was entirely correct, and entirely ethical.
Click to expand...
...within the scope of computer software EULAs. It is of my opinion that software EULAs are fundamentally unethical, but such is an argument that runs beyond the realm of this forum. I drew the analogy because I wanted to point out that the very idea of what is/is not ethical changes when you talk about computer software.
The Dark Elf said:
Well no, cause Valve continue to own the game, as you say, the licence is what he tried to steal and its entirely upto Valve what they do with it. You'll find that companies _have_ a right to take back a licence to something you bought that they own. All we, the end users have, is the right to use the licence, but the owner reserves the right to take that from us if a dispute arises. We're paying for the privildge to use it, at no time do we actually own any of it.
Click to expand...
You're entirely correct. I do not dispute the legality.
 
GetCool said:
...within the scope of computer software EULAs. It is of my opinion that software EULAs are fundamentally unethical, but such is an argument that runs beyond the realm of this forum. I drew the analogy because I wanted to point out that the very idea of what is/is not ethical changes when you talk about computer software.
Click to expand...


If you don't agree with the EULA, your not supposed to use the software, by using it you are saying in the eyes of the law that you read, understood and agree to abide by the terms laid out.


There really isn't a way around it. Valve _are_ in the right.
 
GetCool said:
If you paid attention, you'd realize that my point lies in my very use of the analogy. My point was that physical property and software licenses are not the same thing by virtue of the EULA.
Click to expand...
Please, don't patronise.

Actually, what you purchase is a license, not an account.
Click to expand...
For the purposes of this discussion, it's the same thing. Stop being pedantic.


Of course they did, and of course it was.
Click to expand...
No, Valve have not prevented him from using their products. If he signs up a new account and uses a new legit CD key, he can play happily all day, forever.


...within the scope of computer software EULAs. It is of my opinion that software EULAs are fundamentally unethical, but such is an argument that runs beyond the realm of this forum. I drew the analogy because I wanted to point out that the very idea of what is/is not ethical changes when you talk about computer software.
Click to expand...

Stealing software is just as, if not more, unethical.
 
The Dark Elf said:
If you don't agree with the EULA, your not supposed to use the software, by using it you are saying in the eyes of the law that you read, understood and agree to abide by the terms laid out.
There really isn't a way around it. Valve _are_ in the right.
Click to expand...
But I do "agree with the terms." That doesn't necessarily mean I agree with the ethics of those terms. I have not and will not break the terms; I have agreed to follow them, not agreed to believe in them.

Edit: Additionally, just because something is in the EULA doesn't mean it is by definition "legal." Remember that an EULA is a list of terms designed by the company, it is not a list of official governmental laws. A company can hypothetically draw up a EULA that is illegal in itself, and by making end-users agree to it, they would be committing illegal acts. As an example of questionable legality in the EULA, it says you are absolutely not allowed to copy the media on which the software comes, but the legality of such a stipulation is still up in the air across the country (since other laws tell you you are allowed to make one personal backup copy of media you own). They can still put it on the EULA, however, so that in the meantime a software company can break your agreement at their will.
 
I've been reading this thread with some interest but could someone please explain a few things to me..

Firstly when they ban an account do they lock out the legitimate keys associated with that account? This seems like an important point because if they don't then the whole argument is moot because anyone that's banned can re-register their legit keys under a new account. That makes the banning of account nothing more than an inconvienence.

I can't see that valve would lockout legit keys because then you'll have copies of games floating around with keys that don't work. Including people that bought legit copies of previous valve games then used an 'pirate' key with halflife2 and got banned. Then you could sell that game on ebay or something and the keys wouldn't work any more.

I'd also like to point out that if someone hacks your computer and finds out your key and steam login, you are sol; throw your copy of halflife2 in the garbage. You can't play in single player or multiplayer ever again.

Also I'd like to point out that fair use laws state that when you buy something that you own it and you can do whatever you want with it, provided you aren't breaking the law (I don't live in the US so the DMCA doesn't apply to me). If I want to hack halflife2 that's my perogative. If I want to use halflife2 with a cd-crack so I don't have to hunt for the cd all the time then that's also my perogative. Am I going to get banned for using a cd-crack now?

What happens if you lose the cd-key? I've done it before. I guess we go back to the scenario having to throw the game in the garbage.

The awful truth AFAIK is that people do d/l pirate games to evaluate before they buy. I do it all the time. Guess what? most games suck, I d/l them, I try them and delete them the same day. I've always done it. I d/led farcry before I bought it and I d/led NFSU2 before I bought it. A lot of games look good, sound good in the review then lick sweaty ballsack when you try them. It isn't $10 we're talking about here, it's $60, that's a lot of money.

Also I'd like to point out that punitive action against pirating is not the responsibility of valve, it's the responsibility of the government. If you infringe copyrights, you can be charged but it would have to go through the courts. Regardless of the morality of pirating hallife2 Valve is still leaving themselves open for a class action lawsuit if they actually disable people's games (I'm not sure we've proven that they even have yet) just based on the fact as discussed that unknowing people with legit keys could be sold useless games for various reasons.

Finally I'd like to point out that digital content providers are increasing pushing a model where we don't 'own' content, but rather 'lease' it in that we must abide by whatever restrictions they decide. What valve has done with Steam is essentially a DRM system for games. If you were required to log in and register a music CD with an account before you could listen to it, how would feel about that?
 
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