Abu Ghraib prison attacked by insurgents!

[gh0st]

Scaretactics? We wouldn't know anything about that would we? By the way seinfeld, what color is the terror chart today? And have those WMDs got us yet? I haven't been keeping up with the news as of late.

I believe its elevated. Do you not acknowledge the threat of WMDs to society everywhere? If you dont think every side uses scaretactics to achieve their agenda you are sadly mistaken.

 

[Korgoth]

No gh0st I do believe every side uses scaretactics, but seinfeld, he might not...

 

[gh0st]

No gh0st I do believe every side uses scaretactics, but seinfeld, he might not...

Ive yet to see him, as a person, use "scare tactics" against somebody on these boards. He's actually a fairly decent guy. I think he was just pointing out a fairly typical (Nazi!) response to conservative rhetoric.

 

[Korgoth]

Ive yet to see him, as a person, use "scare tactics" against somebody on these boards. He's actually a fairly decent guy. I think he was just pointing out a fairly typical (Nazi!) response to conservative rhetoric.

I never said he was a bad guy, what are you trying to do here? You are being hypocritical because I pointed out that its not just one sided when it comes to scaretactics, like he failed to mention in his post. Then you say I'm the one with blinders on, you aren't making sense bud.

 

[gh0st]

I never said he was a bad guy, what are you trying to do here? You are being hypocritical because I pointed out that its not just one sided when it comes to scaretactics, like he failed to mention in his post. Then you say I'm the one with blinders on, you aren't making sense bud.

You sarcastically indicated that seinfeld was being hypocritical by accusing liberals of using "Nazi", when he himself, you believe, use similar tactics, which I dont agree with. People dont always have to speak both sides, they are welcome to their opinion, but we should at least acknowledge the existence of the other side.

 

[Pogrom]

Lets see if I can clear up all of your potential ridiculous examples to save some time. Our troops are:

1) Not the Stalinist Red Guard;

2) Not the Third Reich whether the Wehrmarch or the Waffen SS or the Eissatzgrupen or any other agency of the Third Reich;

3) Not the Ku Klux Klan;

4) Not Chairman Maos Revolutionary Guard;

5) Not slave traders in the old South during the Confederacy;

6) Not the PLA during the Tianneman Square massacre, the Indonesians massacring the Timorese or troops in any other masscare.

And all of these and other ridiculous examples are just that, ridiculous examples.

if people want to criticise this administration and this military command they should say why. But they should not cheer on terrorists. And don't blame the troops for being part of a foreign policy decision you don't happen to like - and trot out all this crap about, oh so you'd support the Nazi party wouldn't you? If any troops commit crimes, they should be court martialled and jailed. But because some soldiers commit crimes, does not mean the whole army is bad. The same way, that because some citizens of a country or a race commit crimes, does not mean the whole country or race is bad.

Have the guts to say what you want to say - without all this smoke and mirror garbage about Nazis. The Nazis are dead and gone. They only live on in mainstream imagery because the Left keeps wheeling them out to say that any policy they don't like equals nazism.

Wow, touched a nerve there.

what I fail to realise is why when american troops fighting for their cause do something unsavoury, they are "just a few bad apples".

But when someone on the opposite side does something unsavoury, then all of a sudden it is "let's kill the whole lot of them!"


In another light - even soldiers have consciences. They don't have to obey orders without questions if they believe what they are being asked to do is wrong.

I don't think I could support any nation's soldiers that would put obedience ahead of morality, international law and the Geneva Convention.

You may disagree; that's your prerogative.

 

[Calanen]

Wow, touched a nerve there.

As if - next.

what I fail to realise is why when american troops fighting for their cause do something unsavoury, they are "just a few bad apples"

.

The systematic policy of terrorism, abductions of innocents, and the killing of civilians deliberately is in no way comparable to the policies of the US, UK, or Australian governments. Its a shame you think they are. And its just crap to say that the whole 120,000 odd troops in Iraq are somehow akin to terrorists.

But when someone on the opposite side does something unsavoury, then all of a sudden it is "let's kill the whole lot of them!"

Al Quada, and the Baathists had me wanting to kill the whole lot of them for a very long time, and for a huge list of reasons. I don't need isolated examples.

In another light - even soldiers have consciences. They don't have to obey orders without questions if they believe what they are being asked to do is wrong.

Wrong. They have to obey orders unless they violate international law or rules of engagement. If they think something is 'wrong' and they disobey an order in the field they can be shot. More likely, they would just be stood down and dealt with later. If you are a conscientious objector, you don't have to fight - but you do have to do your duty - whatever that is.

I don't think I could support any nation's soldiers that would put obedience ahead of morality, international law and the Geneva Convention.

There are some, a miniscule fraction of the entire army that are charged with crimes. It was not covered up, they were charged. And that means the whole army is bad? Grow up. You were just wanting to seize on the actions of the few and make unwarranted extrapolations to support your jaundiced view of the USA. I expected that to occur outside of our countries. It is sickening that those within our countries tries to inflame propoganda for the enemy by trying to say this is what all of the military does.

If you have evidence of war crimes - get on the news. Wave them around. The Left would love you to be their darling. Just like they have been trotting around with that Habib guy after he was released from Guantanomo Bay. I hope there is more campaigning for invalid pensioners to be able to receive their government cheques when training with Al Qada, this is a very important reform we need in Australia.

And whose morality - yours? And what is this 'higher morality' that you claim to possess - re the rights of Saddam to oppress and kill civilians without outside interference. Does not much sound like morality to me. And fortunately, nor does it to the majority of people in Australia or the United States, who re-elected the current governments.

The new anthem for the Labor Party and Democratic Party should be: 'You're Out of Touch' and you were all so damn smug about how the governments were going to be shown what the majority of people thought in the next election ie they support our leftist drivel. But that's not what the majority of people thought.

It was just what the pseudo-intellectual chardonnay socialist left thought. Big difference. And it showed at the ballot box.

Bush won his election and in Australia, the Howard government now has control of the Senate for the first time in about 30 years.
So how about just saying its 'my version of leftist morality' instead of trying to say its what the majority of people believe is moral or right, or that it is moral or correct in the objective sense. Because if you still believe, after you got smashed at the ballot box, that you represent the 'will of the people' you need to stop kidding yourselves.

 

[Nofuture]

I am disgusted by some of you here for being blind and hypocritical.

Firstly, that’s unbelievable how rapidly you start to SCREAM accusing me of something that I even haven’t said. You imply this, but it doesn’t mean that it’s true.
Secondly, hmm, who was KILLED there? Read the news I’ve posted again. NOBODY is reported being killed in this operation.


Abu Ghraib prison has been for me from that very moment I’ve heard and I’ve saw about a symbol of perversity, of madness, of the ugliest “human” sites, of sickening behaviour, of immorality, of crime, of unjust.
Yes, I’m glad if this is to ruin, yes I’m glad if this operation will lead to a change of prisoners’ treatment.


Is it for YOU OK that:

"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent civilians. We're winning the war," Karpinski said Wodjakowski told her.”

“Many of the Tortured at Abu Ghraib Were Common Criminals, Not Terrorists”

“At Abu Ghraib, military-intelligence officers were concerned about the poor "product" they were getting from prisoner interrogations, and they pressured the military-police guards there to "soften up" their charges between sessions. That, at least, is the defense of the six MPs now facing charges in the scandal. So why did Cpl. Charles Graner Jr. order a young woman to pull her shirt up to her neck? She was an accused prostitute. MPs allegedly ordered Hussein Mohsen Matar to masturbate, and rode on his naked back as he crawled on all fours. He was an accused thief. Haqi Ismail Abdul-Hamid, famously menaced by a snarling dog, had at least kicked an Iraqi policemen and threatened to kill Coalition soldiers. But he was ordered released as a mental case. Not only did military police torture prisoners at Abu Ghraib, they often tortured the wrong prisoners.“

"I visited Abu Ghraib a couple of days after it was liberated. It was the most awful sight I've ever seen. I said, ‘If there's ever a reason to get rid of Saddam Hussein, it's because of Abu Ghraib,'” says Baer. “There were bodies that were eaten by dogs, torture. You know, electrodes coming out of the walls. It was an awful place."

"We went into Iraq to stop things like this from happening, and indeed, here they are happening under our tutelage,” says Cowan.“

“A letter signed by a woman named Noor circulated widely in Baghdad saying she had been raped and impregnated by American soldiers, and begging the resistance to "please kill all of us."

“Some of the worst things that happened you don't know about, okay? Videos, um, there are women there. Some of you may have read that they were passing letters out, communications out to their men. This is at Abu Ghraib ... The women were passing messages out saying 'Please come and kill me, because of what's happened' and basically what happened is that those women who were arrested with young boys, children in cases that have been recorded. The boys were sodomized with the cameras rolling. And the worst above all of that is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking that your government has. They are in total terror.“

“After Donald Rumsfeld testified on the Hill about Abu Ghraib in May, there was talk of more photos and video in the Pentagon's custody more horrific than anything made public so far. "If these are released to the public, obviously it's going to make matters worse," Rumsfeld said. Since then, the Washington Post has disclosed some new details and images of abuse at the prison.”

"One military investigator wrote in his notes on Graner [He compared pictures of naked Iraqi prisoners in a human pyramid to cheerleaders at US sports events, who form pyramids "all over America" etc. etc. etc. He now could face a 17-year sentence if found guilty.]: "the biggest S.O.B. on earth," a comment he underlined twice."

“Excerpt from statement provided by Kasim Mehaddi Hilas, Detainee #151108, on January 18 2004:
I saw [name deleted] ****ing a kid, his age would be about 15 - 18 years. The kid was hurting very bad and they covered all the doors with sheets. Then when I heard the screaming I climbed the door because on top it wasn't covered and I saw [name deleted] who was wearing the military uniform putting his dick in the little kid's ass. I couldn't see the face of the kid because his face wasn't in front of the door. And the female soldier was taking pictures. [name deleted], I think he is [deleted] because of his accent, and he was not skinny or short, and he acted like a homosexual (gay).“

Army reservist witnesses war crimes. New revelations about ongoing brutality at Abu Ghraib:
“Delgado says he observed mutilation of the dead, trophy photos of dead Iraqis, mass roundups of innocent noncombatants, positioning of prisoners in the line of fire—all violations of the Geneva conventions. His own buddies—decent, Christian men, as he describes them—shot unarmed prisoners.
…
In one government class for seniors, Delgado presented graphic images, his own photos of a soldier playing with a skull, the charred remains of children, kids riddled with bullets, a soldier from his unit scooping out the brains of a prisoner.
…
Every time our base came under attack, we sent out teams to sweep up all men between the ages of 17 and 50. There were random sweeps. The paperwork to get them out of prison took six months or a year. It was hellish inside. A lot of completely innocent civilians were in prison camp for no offense. It sounds completely outrageous.“
…
The prisoners picked up stones, pieces of wood, and threw them at the guards. One of my buddies got hit in the face. He got a bloody nose. But he wasn't hurt. The guards asked permission to use lethal force. They got it. They opened fire on the prisoners with the machine guns. They shot twelve and killed three. I know because I talked to the guy who did the killing. He showed me these grisly photographs, and he bragged about the results. "Oh," he said, "I shot this guy in the face. See, his head is split open." He talked like the Terminator. "I shot this guy in the groin, he took three days to bleed to death."

Is all this OK for you? For me NOT!


"We will be paid back for this. These people at some point will be let out,” says Cowan. “Their families are gonna know. Their friends are gonna know."
“And we'll end up getting paid back 100 or 1,000 times over,” says Cowan.”

Such prisons have no right to exist. The information which is known publicly now, is just the peak of the iceberg, I assume. That aren’t only isolated cases, that is a system:

“Frederick told us he will plead not guilty, claiming the way the Army was running the prison led to the abuse of prisoners.
“We had no support, no training whatsoever. And I kept asking my chain of command for certain things...like rules and regulations,” says Frederick. “And it just wasn't happening."

“Frederick says he didn't see a copy of the Geneva Convention rules for handling prisoners of war until after he was charged.”
The Army investigation confirms that soldiers at Abu Ghraib were not trained at all in Geneva Convention rules. And most were reservists, part-time soldiers who didn't get the kind of specialized prisoner of war training given to regular Army members.”

“Is there any indication that similar actions may have happened at other prisons? “I'd like to sit here and say that these are the only prisoner abuse cases that we're aware of, but we know that there have been some other ones since we've been here in Iraq,” says Kimmitt.“

"This is a prison that was clearly out of control," says Joseph Margulies, an attorney who represented Guantanamo detainees in their recent successful Supreme Court appeal.”


OK, if that it’s not “allowed” to be glad that all this perversity, madness, unjust is to be stopped, the same is appropriate to someone who e.g. says, yeah, I’m glad we are making/have maid Iraq free. Using the same standard then implies that he/she is glad that over 17.000 civilians had been killed!

OK, then as soon as somebody e.g. says he/she is glad Iraq is getting free, we all must SCREAM to that people: You sickos, monsters, swines etc. etc. etc. (I’m not well aware with English swear words; as some of you seem to have a Master degree in that, they will definitely find the ugliest words) are glad that over 17.000 civilians had been killed!

OK, please do it, SCREAM so LOUD that ALL can HEAR YOU!!!


We have recently had a thread Anti-War = Pro-Terror about black/white, “Are those really the only possibilities?” etc.

Some haven’t learned anything from it. And I really doubt they ever will.

 

[Solaris]

When I compare things or people to nazis I am drawing similarities. You have to learn from history and when I compare the patrioct act or 911 to nazi germany I am trying to make you see how the nazi government used events like theese in its favour and I try and show you how events are re-accuring.

But back on topic, Its funny how theese 'terrorists', seem to care more about the human rights of the prisoners than many over governemnts. Im with them, free thoose that have been imprisoned without trial. Now who do we blame for the US troops that died, insurgents or the US governement. I blame the later for putting our troops in harms way.

Edit: Just seen Nofutures post. Rite on! I totally agree.

 

[Korgoth]

You sarcastically indicated that seinfeld was being hypocritical by accusing liberals of using "Nazi", when he himself, you believe, use similar tactics, which I dont agree with. People dont always have to speak both sides, they are welcome to their opinion, but we should at least acknowledge the existence of the other side.

Which is EXACTLY what I was doing. You just fudged an attempt to better me, so now you're grabbing at straws. Get over it.

 

[Sprafa]

this thread goes to the top of my "****ed up" list.

 

[seinfeldrules]

Scaretactics? We wouldn't know anything about that would we? By the way seinfeld, what color is the terror chart today? And have those WMDs got us yet? I haven't been keeping up with the news as of late.

Yes, you would know everything about scaretatics. The Left compares Bush Administration to Nazi's, because they use 'scaretatics' against America. Sounds directly hypocritical to me. Do I think the Right uses them? Yes. Do I think the terror chart is one? No. People have the right to know the level of alertness our government is at. How many WMDs have we got? Been over this a million times, its not my fault you cant remember any of the occasions.

 

[Foxtrot]

Yes, you would know everything about scaretatics. The Left compares Bush Administration to Nazi's, because they use 'scaretatics' against America. Sounds directly hypocritical to me. Do I think the Right uses them? Yes. Do I think the terror chart is one? No. People have the right to know the level of alertness our government is at. How many WMDs have we got? Been over this a million times, its not my fault you cant remember any of the occasions.

People think the terror alert system is just a color coded system to scare people, they are also usually ignorant liberals (liberals that are ignorant, not all liberals are ignorant like that).

 

[Korgoth]

You tell me, are they ever going to drop the alertness level down to something calm? No, because if they did that would give an enemy the signal they needed to attack... "oh look, the chart is blue, they aren't expecting us, lets attack now." The color chart has no purpose other than to keep us reminded that we are under a constant threat... And whats the point in that?

And ignorance foxtrot? You want to speak of ignorance?

I am not saying you have a warped view, you just have a different view...which is warped...dirty liberal...go have butt sex!

That sounds pretty ignorant...

 

[seinfeldrules]

You tell me, are they ever going to drop the alertness level down to something calm? No, because if they did that would give an enemy the signal they needed to attack... "oh look, the chart is blue, they aren't expecting us, lets attack now." The color chart has no purpose other than to keep us reminded that we are under a constant threat... And whats the point in that?

We're at war innervision. Thats not an opinion, its a fact.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

:thumbs:

And this sums up your ideology entirely. Thinking it was wrong to go militarily was one thing. Supporting the terrorists and the enemy is treason. It sickens me that you thought this was a good thing.

 

[The Monkey]

And this sums up your ideology entirely. Thinking it was wrong to go militarily was one thing. Supporting the terrorists and the enemy is treason. It sickens me that you thought this was a good thing.

I wouldn't call it treason, he has done nothing to harm his country, but it's quite idiotic to make it look as a good thing.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

I wouldn't call it treason, he has done nothing to harm his country, but it's quite idiotic to make it look as a good thing.

I don't know, imagine you are one of the soldiers coming here to read this board. You know people may be against the war, but they still worry about your safety and want you to be safe. Then you see these people who are supporting attacks on them.

As a friend of many Iraq war veterans, I wish he'd said that in their precense. He'd have learned a lesson.

 

[Absinthe]

People think the terror alert system is just a color coded system to scare people, they are also usually ignorant liberals (liberals that are ignorant, not all liberals are ignorant like that).

It certainly doesn't serve much purpose.

America was doing fine before the Bush administration installed a national traffic light.

 

[CptStern]

I don't know, imagine you are one of the soldiers coming here to read this board. You know people may be against the war, but they still worry about your safety and want you to be safe. Then you see these people who are supporting attacks on them.

As a friend of many Iraq war veterans, I wish he'd said that in their precense. He'd have learned a lesson.

wtf kind of bullshit is that???? I'd get beaten up for speaking my mind? there's not a soldier alive who'd be able to justify the invasion of iraq ...so instead of listening to the truth you'd have me/NoFuture beaten into silence?? this is the attitude that was responsible for 9/11. American ****ing arrogance knows no end ..I'd love to confront every one of them and throw this in their faces ...at least I'd have some satisfaction as they pummel me with their jack boots


Rakurai in the past I've respected if not agreed with your opinion but wishing violence on someone is beneath contempt

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

wtf kind of bullshit is that???? I'd get beaten up for speaking my mind?

As far as I can remember you haven't given thumbs up and pretty much praised terrorist attacks against soldiers.

there's not a soldier alive who'd be able to justify the invasion of iraq ...so instead of listening to the truth you'd have me/NoFuture beaten into silence??

This has nothing to do with wanting to argue supporting or against the war. It's about this guy being happy that good men were hurt or killed.

this is the attitude that was responsible for 9/11. American ****ing arrogance knows no end ..I'd love to confront every one of them and throw this in their faces ...at least I'd have some satisfaction as they pummel me with their jack boots

The men that became casualties in this attack are in no way responsible for this, you know that.

Rakurai in the past I've respected if not agreed with your opinion but wishing violence on someone is beneath contempt

I don't know Stern. Someone who is happy about our troops being attacked deserves a good smash in the face as far as I am concerned. There is a big difference between being against the war, and against the soldiers. The thread starter shows this.

 

[CptStern]

As far as I can remember you haven't given thumbs up and pretty much praised terrorist attacks against soldiers.

well then you should be able to find multiple examples. I'm waiting

This has nothing to do with wanting to argue supporting or against the war. It's about this guy being happy that good men were hurt or killed.

good men that are participating in the systematic destruction of a nation and it's people ..again I want proof that "I'm happy america soldiers died"

The men that became casualties in this attack are in no way responsible for this, you know that.

ah but they're wiliing participants ..accessories to mass murders

I don't know Stern. Someone who is happy about our troops being attacked deserves a good smash in the face as far as I am concerned. There is a big difference between being against the war, and against the soldiers. The thread starter shows this.

freakin double standard. Have you spoken out against the horrors committed on the iraqi people by the US? does your compassion only extend to americans? there's abundant proof of soldiers killing innocent civilians ..do they deserve a "smash in the face" or do they deserve worse in accordance to the severity of their crimes?

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

well then you should be able to find multiple examples. I'm waiting

What? This doesn't even make SENSE. Reread my post I think you think I said you did.

good men that are participating in the systematic destruction of a nation and it's people ..again I want proof that "I'm happy america soldiers died"

No, they're not. All efforts of the campaign have been on reconstruction and getting the nation back on track, the soldiers want that more than ANYONE so they can get home. I never said that, you did misread my post, and that's why you're so angry. Reread it (even in your quotes, not editted)

ah but they're wiliing participants ..accessories to mass murders

No, they're not.

freakin double standard. Have you spoken out against the horrors committed on the iraqi people by the US? does your compassion only extend to americans? there's abundant proof of soldiers killing innocent civilians ..do they deserve a "smash in the face" or do they deserve worse in accordance to the severity of their crimes?

Yes, I do speak out when something is not right. As far as I know they've gotten that that committed the crimes. They've been courtmartialed, etc, and that seems worse than a smash in the face.


Edit: Now I see why you think that. My post is poorly worded. I am criticizing nofuture and distinguishing the different between you and him. My post should read this:

As far as I can remember you haven't "given thumbs up and pretty much praised terrorist attacks against soldiers."

As in- you haven't done those. Nofuture did though, and that just is disgusting, I've got good friends there / people who are back now.

 

[T.H.C.138]

CptStern,as far as I could tell Rakurai was saying you have NOT given thumbs ups like the thread starter has done..he was not attacking you

as far as I am concerned the average soldier just wants to get the hell out of there while doing their job as best as they can..the sadists are not the average soldier as some people tend to forget

 

[Foxtrot]

It certainly doesn't serve much purpose.

America was doing fine before the Bush administration installed a national traffic light.

America wasn't attacked by terrorists on this scale before then also. It does serve a purpose, if they terror alert goes up security goes up. Just because you aren't involved in the process doesn't mean it serves no purpose, good job being self centered.

 

[CptStern]

What? This doesn't even make SENSE. Reread my post I think you think I said you did.

Edit: Now I see why you think that. My post is poorly worded. I am criticizing nofuture and distinguishing the different between you and him. My post should read this:

As far as I can remember you haven't "given thumbs up and pretty much praised terrorist attacks against soldiers."

As in- you haven't done those. Nofuture did though, and that just is disgusting, I've got good friends there / people who are back now.

it is poorly worded

he was not celebrating the fact that americans were injured ..his smilies were an attempt at irony

No, they're not. All efforts of the campaign have been on reconstruction and getting the nation back on track, the soldiers want that more than ANYONE so they can get home. I never said that, you did misread my post, and that's why you're so angry. Reread it (even in your quotes, not editted)

yes they are, estimates are at around 100,000 civilians killed based on nothing more than lies.

No, they're not.

yes they are. the evidence is right there staring them in the face ...no one in their right mind could possibly justify the invasion ..to continue to participate in the destruction of iraq is to participate in wholesale murder

Yes, I do speak out when something is not right. As far as I know they've gotten that that committed the crimes. They've been courtmartialed, etc, and that seems worse than a smash in the face.

courtmartial for murder that's a slap on the wrist not a smash in the face, They got off lightly ..willing participants

 

[CptStern]

CptStern,as far as I could tell Rakurai was saying you have NOT given thumbs ups like the thread starter has done..he was not attacking you

I've admitted misunderstanding his poorly worded statement ...but it doesnt change the fact he wished for violence on a hl2.net member ..I dont care who it's directed at ..it's pretty low if you ask me

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

it is poorly worded

he was not celebrating the fact that americans were injured ..his smilies were an attempt at irony

I really don't think so. The nature of his post is just very bad. He is happy about it. If not, then it is VERY piss poor judgement to be acting like that about this, it's sickening.

yes they are, estimates are at around 100,000 civilians killed based on nothing more than lies.

Which thing is lies, I don't understand this sentence. Civillians are not targetted purposely. Those who do that are brought to trial. These are not evil people, these are our brothers, sisters, daughters and sons ordered there.

yes they are. the evidence is right there staring them in the face ...no one in their right mind could possibly justify the invasion ..to continue to participate in the destruction of iraq is to participate in wholesale murder

They do not WANT to be there, but it's the mission they were sent to do. It's not the destruction of Iraq, situation is better now than before, under a mass murderer who would not fix things and used vital resources as a "tool" for submission. Do you want them to desert? Because it sounds like that's all they can do to be not bad as far as you're saying.

courtmartial for murder that's a slap on the wrist not a smash in the face, They got off lightly ..willing participants

What? What higher charge can you get than murder then? What do you want?

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

I've admitted misunderstanding his poorly worded statement ...but it doesnt change the fact he wished for violence on a hl2.net member ..I dont care who it's directed at ..it's pretty low if you ask me

It touched a very stingy nerve. It seems as if he's happy about our guys dying. It's a hard thing to go through when it happens. ;/

It's like.. I don't know. Say someone you're close with, Bob, was shot up in a drive by shooting.

Then you come onto hl2.net, and you see a thread

" Bob shot to death :thumbs: Maybe the end of Simmons Co.? (where he works) :smoking: "

 

[Absinthe]

America wasn't attacked by terrorists on this scale before then also.

9/11 was a rarity. Contrary to what you may think, it is not something that's going to happen for a long time, if ever.

It does serve a purpose, if they terror alert goes up security goes up. Just because you aren't involved in the process doesn't mean it serves no purpose, good job being self centered.

You have failed to detail any reason for the American public requiring the National Traffic Light O'Fear.

I'm also not sure where you get off calling me self-centered.

 

[CptStern]

I really don't think so. The nature of his post is just very bad. He is happy about it. If not, then it is VERY piss poor judgement to be acting like that about this, it's sickening.

look we cant speak for him ..but he clearly explained himself here

Which thing is lies, I don't understand this sentence.

the justification behind the war

Civillians are not targetted purposely.

indiscrimately not necessarily purposefully

Those who do that are brought to trial.

trial? how many victems will never see justice?

These are not evil people, these are our brothers, sisters, daughters and sons ordered there.

willing participants in wholesale slaughter ..bush lied many died

They do not WANT to be there, but it's the mission they were sent to do. It's not the destruction of Iraq, situation is better now than before, under a mass murderer who would not fix things and used vital resources as a "tool" for submission. Do you want them to desert? Because it sounds like that's all they can do to be not bad as far as you're saying.

they were sent to take control of a nation for self-serving purposes, they are complicit in the rape of a nation

What? What higher charge can you get than murder then? What do you want?

I want justice....court martial for murder is not justice

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

look we cant speak for him ..but he clearly explained himself here

Everyone's against the abuse. Being happy about the attacks on our soldiers is just. plain. wrong.

the justification behind the war

I'd support military intervention with or without the security threat. It's a moral question for me, not being "scared" into it. And you know I mean that, as I also think we need to elsewhere. There may have been others we could've gone to first, too, but it's definately not a bad thing to take care of this.

indiscrimately not necessarily purposefully

No, they aren't targetted. It's very sad when innocent folks are killed in this. I remember a story one of my closest friends told me, about them clearing a house of a terrorist. They had him holed up in a room, were about to either grenade it or have him (m249 gunner) spray across it, until they heard a child's cry come from it. They waited it out, finally got a chance to get him without hurting the innocents in there. The guy was hiding behind his wife and children and holding them at gunpoint. You'll have no idea how much this racked on the mind of my friend, he would've been the one to do it if they hadn't heard that. It hurt him a lot and it didn't even happen. So don't say crap about how these good men are participating in murder. That's just horrible to say.

trial? how many victems will never see justice?

What more can we do besides trying them? We don't line people up in the street and shoot them.

willing participants in wholesale slaughter ..bush lied many died

They are not slaughtering anybody, it's saddening to see you saying this. Do you know any of the soldiers? These boys aren't monsters.

they were sent to take control of a nation for self-serving purposes, they are complicit in the rape of a nation

Sigh, Stern, what in God's name self serving purposes were those? I'd like to see some of them, because it doesn't seem like anything monetary. I do see a better future for Iraq, but that doesn't particularly help us immediately or anything.

I want justice....court martial for murder is not justice

What else do we do?

 

[bliink]

deserves a good smash in the face as far as I am concerned.

Try to word your post so they don't look like veiled threats.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Try to word your post so they don't look like veiled threats.

I'm not threating to do it (.. over the net?)

I'm saying if someone is happy about soldiers being hurt or killed, they do deserve a smash in the face.

 

[GhostFox]

bush lied

I don't understand why people always come back to this. A politicians job is to lie. The average person is ignorant and uninformed, so politicians cannot come out and dissect the truth and real issues.

Bush overstated the case so that Joe Average would get it. Big deal. North America was never under any threat from Hitler. I haven't seen anyone attack FDR and King as a pack of liars.

I think Bush and everyone else believed Saddam had WMD's. Hell, I sure did, and still think they exist (either buried in the desert where they will never be found, or shipped off to other countries). And while I don't think Saddam had any nuke materials, he sure wanted them and would have aquired them when it was possible.

That being said, I think the whole WMD issue was secondary. In all honesty I thinkt he war started for two main reasons.

1) Bush realized that the only chance to end the threat of terrorism to the Western world is to create a stable democracy in the ME. Iraq was the most convienent choice.

2) Bush felt ashamed that his father had abandoned the first Gulf War when it was only half finished, and let Saddam resume his reign of tyranny again when he should have been liberating the Iraqi people. I think that to Bush this war was a debt of honor. One of his goals as president is to correct what he percives as his father's mistakes.

I think those two issues combined with the threat of Saddam with WMD's led to the war, and I don't think that he did anything wrong by picking the point of his case that the average person could understand and hammering it home. That just means he is a good politician. To be completely honest the reasons for invading Iraq are utterly immaterial to me. The end result is what concerns me here, and it is one so far I am immensely pleased with. It's not perfect, but it is better then before and keeps getting better every day.

If you need a politician to be 100% honest with you all of the time to sleep at night, you should resign yourself to sleeplessness now, because it's never going to happen.

 

[Javert]

Why does a thread about an attack on American soldiers have a Happy Face?

Do these American soldiers deserve that somehow?
For a moment I had thought that those responsible for the incident are already facing Hell in court.

 

[seinfeldrules]

but wishing violence on someone is beneath contempt

And cheering on terrorist attacks is any different?

It certainly doesn't serve much purpose.

America was doing fine before the Bush administration installed a national traffic light.

I'm almost positive it was around in a modified form before Bush took office. I'll get back to you on that, not that it will matter or anything.

 

[gh0st]

Which is EXACTLY what I was doing. You just fudged an attempt to better me, so now you're grabbing at straws. Get over it.

I fudged an attempt to better you? And here I thought we were having a reasonable conversation - why the hostility?

 

[Foxtrot]

I fudged an attempt to better you? And here I thought we were having a reasonable conversation - why the hostility?

Obviously, you challeneged his honor and he responded. 200 pence and 4 wenches will be awarded Innervision for this feat.

 

[bliink]

Get over yourselves and back on topic or thread will go to locky-land.