Article: "Kerry Won"

[SunHawk]

So you'll have to excuse people for the continued "Bush-Bashing", regardless of his second term.

No I won't excuse them.

I'll see them for what they are.

Whingeing, whining, petulant little twerps screaming "stolen election" because their candidate, a man who can't work out what he wants for dinner let alone make major command decisions, a man backed by one of the most notorious propagandists, a divisive fat manatee whose films are the worst kind of garbage, full of lies, halftruths,deceits,distortions, omissions and outright fabrications.

Michael Moore.(and don't anyone try and tell me his film is a "documentary, documentary means facts)

Kerry is a liar, a fool, indecisive, unfit to command, unfit to be President, he had no credibility... and now that its over you lot are starting this tired old meme again"stolen election"...I have got to meet this Rove fellow one day, if half of what's been written by you loonies is correct, he's the greatest living evil genius since Blofeld, with connections to every major crime family, a hidden base in the Caribbean, a white cat with a diamond necklace,plotting the end of the world.

Leaders of several women's groups said Tuesday that Democrat John Kerry fell short in his bid for the White House because he didn't make a more direct appeal for support from women voters

.

Ahh...new excuses....it never ends, does it?

 

[CptStern]

if kerry is a liar, bush is the prince of lies

 

[OCybrManO]

if kerry is a liar, bush is the prince of lies

Calling a politician a liar is roughly equivalent to calling the Pope a Catholic.

 

[CptStern]

Calling a politician a liar is roughly equivalent to calling the Pope a Catholic.

that's very quotable

 

[colson]

I sure as hell hope Kerry won. Bush is a blood-thirsty redneck bastard.

 

[colson]

oh man... a greg palast article. yay. its funny how he sources an article, that sources a different article that he wrote... rofl. yes, greg palast = a highly credible source of information. and if you believe that, that's the first step to understanding why you lost this election. read the nov. 7th entry of this blog. thats just for starters.

bush won this election, fair and square, just like he did in 2000. get the f*ck over it.

That's bullshit Bush won the election fair and square! Have you ever heard about the Florida situation? I think not.

 

[Absinthe]

mmk... because i defend bush, i must be a bush-loving, dick-sucking conservative, right? i'm more of a moderate than anything, and the only reason i defend bush is because he's worth defending. he's been a good president so far, and im sick of all the ignorant bush-haters spewing forth their unknowing opinions and immature views. again, its not my fault that the evidence and facts support bush and his supporters.

It's a shame you think that way, seeing as how the facts tend to go against this administration.

You call me an ignorant Bush hater. That's absurd, since I know I'm not ignorant on this issue. So I call you a presidential cocksucker. I hope you see how this dynamic works. You can't lump me into a generalized category and then ge tall indignant when I do the same to you.

 

[othello]

That's bullshit Bush won the election fair and square! Have you ever heard about the Florida situation? I think not.

lol a little late man... have you ever heard of intellectual investigation or research? i think not.

 

[othello]

Are you saying the NAACP filed a suit over the purge list for no reason?

no, i'm sure they had their reasons. one of them being jesse jackson. his affiliation alone cast considerable doubts to the legitimacy of their claims.

here is a fairly thorough investigation:

What about the 50 plus thousand Black votes in Florida not counted?
Source:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/0527-03.htm / Palm Beach Post

Database technologies was hired to purge felons from the voter rolls under a court order because the state was found to be violating it's own laws by not taking steps to keep felons from voting.

Moore Quote:
"Second, make sure the chairman of your campaign is also the vote count woman. And that her state has hired a company that's gonna knock voters off the rolls who aren't likely to vote for you."

The choice of company was made by the democrat-controlled legislature... not the executive branch.. Not Kathleen Harris..

Only 42,389 "probable" and "possible" felons were identified by Database Technologies. Only 44% of those 42,389 people were black while 49% of the state’s felons are black (according to the FDLE).

Most of these selections were not in error. "At least 108 law-abiding people were purged from the voter rolls as suspected criminals, only to be cleared after the election."

Plus, they mistakenly cut people convicted of felonies in other states... although they should not have. "Florida officials cut from the rolls 996 people convicted of crimes in other states, though they should have been allowed to vote."

So, between 1,100 - ? Say 2000 people were wrongly denied the ability to vote. Not on the basis of race as no evidence has come to light that Database Technologies even used race in their analysis... it actually helped cause more errors since they did not... Of these people, not all were black.

"DBT's computers had matched these people with felons, though in dozens of cases they did not share the same name, birthdate, gender or race...[A] review of state records, internal e-mails of DBT employees and testimony before the civil rights commission and an elections task force showed no evidence that minorities were specifically targeted. Records show that DBT told the state it would not use race as a criterion to identify felons. The list itself bears that out: More than 1,000 voters were matched with felons though they were of different races.."

(The reason for the high number of excluded voters is that many voters cleared up their mistaken identities before the election and were able to vote).

So, the 50k figure is bogus… as are the claims that race was an issue...

Furthermore, some election officials did not trust the data and ignored it. "Skeptical of the list's accuracy, elections supervisors in 20 counties (including Palm Beach) ignored it altogether, thereby allowing thousands of felons to vote."

So, it is estimated about 5,600 felons were illegally allowed to vote in Florida as a result.
Source:
http://www.manhattan-institute.org/final_dissent.pdf

According to the American Sociological Association, felons tend to vote democrat 69 % of the time.
Source:
http://www.scienceblog.com/community/article708.html

So, due to other mistakes by Florida officials (totally ignoring the
excluded voter lists), the democrats probably gained around 2128 net votes (assuming that 69% of felons voted democrat while the rest voted republican... and subtracting the republican votes from the democrat total).

If anything, the various mistakes lead to a virtual push in net votes... probably even to a gain in votes for Gore (not all of those mistakenly excluded, by database technologies, were voting for Gore either)...

Moore's responded to these criticisms in the third paragraph of the link I gave you. He tap dances around the issues and in my opinion, fails to prove his point. Here are his responses and my comments..

http://www.michaelmoore.com/warroom/f911notes/
“The vote total was certified by Florida's secretary of state, Katherine Harris, head of the Bush campaign in Florida, on behalf of Gov. Jeb Bush, the candidate's brother.”
-Yes, we know Mike. But that’s a non-sequester.

"The Florida Department of State awarded a $4 million contract to the Boca Raton-based Database Technologies Inc. (subsidiary of ChoicePoint). They were tasked with finding improperly registered voters in the state’s database, but mistakes were rampant. “At one point, the list included as felons 8,000 former Texas residents who had been convicted of misdemeanors.”
-Again, yes, but it does not support your case Mike. Also, "at one point" was before the election and that error was fixed...

"Database Technologies, a subsidiary of ChoicePoint, “was responsible for bungling an overhaul of Florida’s voter registration records, with the result that thousands of people, disproportionately black, were disenfranchised in the 2000 election. Had they been able to vote, they might have swung the state, and thus the presidency, for Al Gore, who lost in Florida."
-A disproportionate number of felons in Florida are black so the fact that a higher percentage was excluded does not necessarily show discrimination. Sociologists call anyone not allowed to vote, even legally excluded citizens, 'disenfranchised'. So, yes, if Florida law allowed felons to vote the state may very well have gone to Gore....

"In 1997, Rick Rozar, the late head of the company bought by ChoicePoint, donated $100,000 to the Republican National Committee."
-It's another conspiracy! Ack...

*correction* The Florida Department of State awarded the contract to DBT, not the legislature.

all of this derived from a state election that took place in 1998... where many convicted felons were allowed to vote, and people cried voter fraud, etc etc. the florida department of state took it upon themself to correct this matter. no bush. not katherine harris. these people would've been purged from the polls no matter who was running for president.

 

[othello]

It's a shame you think that way, seeing as how the facts tend to go against this administration.

not by any stretch of the imagination. sure, bush and his cabinet members aren't perfect... but the majority of the facts support them and their actions.

You call me an ignorant Bush hater. That's absurd, since I know I'm not ignorant on this issue. So I call you a presidential cocksucker. I hope you see how this dynamic works. You can't lump me into a generalized category and then ge tall indignant when I do the same to you.

sure i can, you're one of those people who cry 'bush stole the election in 2000!' when that is clearly not the case. ignorance isn't always a bad thing. it just means you don't know what you're talking about. and thats fine... do some research and that will change.

 

[Absinthe]

not by any stretch of the imagination. sure, bush and his cabinet members aren't perfect... but the majority of the facts support them and their actions.

Like limiting freedoms with the Patriot Act?
Like 1,000 dead US soldiers?
Like 14,000-16,000 dead Iraqi civilians?
Like attempting to constitutionally ban gay marriage?

All facts. All major. Wether you consider those supportive of the administration is up to you. I personally believe it just shows what a failure it is.

sure i can, you're one of those people who cry 'bush stole the election in 2000!' when that is clearly not the case. ignorance isn't always a bad thing. it just means you don't know what you're talking about. and thats fine... do some research and that will change.

Assumption. I never said that Bush stole the election. I simply argued against your claim that the election was fair and square. There were many circumstances and events that existed in it, and the fact that so many people were barred from voting (especially over such loose criteria) is suspicious. I don't know how you say with a straight face that Bush's victory was fair and square.

 

[superjuanchango]

Exit polls are not accurate at all. Simply asking somone who they voted for does not yield accurate results, as the person can lie or say they didn't want to tell the person.

 

[othello]

Like limiting freedoms with the Patriot Act?

without flaming, you should look into the patriot act a bit more. it allows for measures of security and prevention that have already been proven useful and that were impossible pre-9/11.

Like 1,000 dead US soldiers?

we lost over 1000 troops just training for D-Day. and considering all the good their sacrifice has made, i would say this fact is counter-productive on your end.

Like 14,000-16,000 dead Iraqi civilians?

as harsh as it sounds, casualties are nasty symptom of war. sad, but true. the real question is, do you think it was worth it, losing those 15000, so that 26 million could be freed from their genocidal dictator who had slaughtered hundreds of thousands of them? i think it was. so again, counter-productive.

Like attempting to constitutionally ban gay marriage?

the majority of the american people are also in favor of banning gay marriage, so you can hardly blame him for that.

All facts. All major. Wether you consider those supportive of the administration is up to you. I personally believe it just shows what a failure it is.

well thats your opinion, and i totally disagree.

Assumption. I never said that Bush stole the election. I simply argued against your claim that the election was fair and square. There were many circumstances and events that existed in it, and the fact that so many people were barred from voting (especially over such loose criteria) is suspicious. I don't know how you say with a straight face that Bush's victory was fair and square.

there were many circumstances all over the election that were 'fishy'. in illinois (i believe), over 100,000 republican votes went 'missing'. military absentee ballots (something like 80% republican) were never counted in florida. those are just a few examples. i'm not saying the election was flawless, im saying bush didn't steal the election. he won. simple as that.

 

[Absinthe]

without flaming, you should look into the patriot act a bit more. it allows for measures of security and prevention that have already been proven useful and that were impossible pre-9/11.

It still violates my rights as a US citizen.

we lost over 1000 troops just training for D-Day. and considering all the good their sacrifice has made, i would say this fact is counter-productive on your end.

Stupid comparison. The world is different place from what is was fifty years ago. We are the number one superpower on the globe and our military strength and technology is unsurpassed. We are not up against a strong military force as was supplied by Nazi Germany.

And exactly what good came out of their senseless "sacrifices"? I mean, besides making Iraq even more dangerous.

I guess I could also argue that 1,000 deaths is an absolute tragedy when considering the reasons for war, but I don't think I'll get into that.

as harsh as it sounds, casualties are nasty symptom of war. sad, but true. the real question is, do you think it was worth it, losing those 15000, so that 26 million could be freed from their genocidal dictator who had slaughtered hundreds of thousands of them? i think it was. so again, counter-productive.

No. I do not think it was worth it, mainly because the war could have waited. The number of civilian casualties could have possibly been reduced if we had:

A) Gone into the country with a more up to date plan of attack as opposed to the Clinton-era leftovers.

B) Had a set plan for securing the peace.

Yes, casualties are a part of war. But there should be attempts to avoid them.

I don't see anything counter-productive about that.

the majority of the american people are also in favor of banning gay marriage, so you can hardly blame him for that.

Yes, I can. A constitutional ban on gay marriage contradicts the very things that America supposedly prides itself in. It is also an attempt to undo the separation between the Church and State.

So what if the majority supports the ban. What if the majority supported the persecution and lynching of African Americans? Would that suddenly make it okey-dokey?

i'm not saying the election was flawless, im saying bush didn't steal the election. he won. simple as that.

I never said he stole the election. And of course he came out as the winner. I just believe that there's no way anybody can say with 100% certainty that the victory was a clear one.

 

[IX00]

Bottom line, this administration is all about money and power. The would say they are buddhist if a majority of Americans would vote for them. Most of them are remnants from the Nixon White House so you know where they are coming from. As far as Iraq is concerned, there are about 50 countries where people are being tortured, raped and starved to death everyday but none of them produce as much oil as Iraq. Ever heard of Africa? Why don't we free some people there? I still don't understand how we invade the 2nd largest oil producer in the world and are still paying $2.40 for a gallon of Gas!. Where is all that oil going? Shouldn't we get a break on some of it? This administration will say anything the majority of people want to hear. Read up on a guy name Frank Luntz. Read, Vote, know your government.

 

[Gray Fox]

Americans should not bitch about how much they have to pay for gasoline, we here in europe pay on average twice as much, and we still manage to get buy pretty damn well.

 

[IX00]

You didn't invade Iraq, we did! I'd pay $8 dollars if we actually attempted to help the poor of this world instead of lining the pockets of Corporate thieves!

 

[Tr0n]

I won bitchs...It's that simple.

 

[Eg.]

2 things.

1. that guy up in the page got all of his evidence FROM MICHEAL MOORE, like thats not biased, at least get the Ny times,

2. pple forget, the patriot act puts into writting what the NSA has been doing for years, and u act all surprised

 

[colson]

lol a little late man... have you ever heard of intellectual investigation or research? i think not.

F**k that! Seriously are all you Americans that f**kin stupid? Omg if people in Canada were that dumb I'd probably slit my wrists. I'm glad I don't live in the US with a bunch of redneck morons.

 

[colson]

Americans should not bitch about how much they have to pay for gasoline, we here in europe pay on average twice as much, and we still manage to get buy pretty damn well.

Same Canada is gettin ripped off too. Almost a f**kin dollar a litre. It used to be like 55 cents.

 

[CptStern]

1. that guy up in the page got all of his evidence FROM MICHEAL MOORE, like thats not biased, at least get the Ny times,

not exactly bias free

 

[azz0r]

Exit polls mean squat - end of discussion.

 

[othello]

F**k that! Seriously are all you Americans that f**kin stupid? Omg if people in Canada were that dumb I'd probably slit my wrists. I'm glad I don't live in the US with a bunch of redneck morons.

well if 'intellectual investigation' and 'research' are 'that f**kin stupid' than it is quite clear just how intellectually superior you canadians are. :cheers: lol, "there are mounds of evidence that prove you wrong"... "f**k that! are you really that stupid!?!?"

hilarious. i'm glad i don't live in canada with a bunch of ignorant, pot-smoking hippie socialists.

 

[CptStern]

'intellectual investigation' and intellectually 'intellectual 'research'

hey pally I handed you an informed opinion a few threads back why dont you put yer mouth where yer money is and answer that and half million other threads on the issue that we've tired everyone to death with ..but what do I know? I'm just a pot smoking hippie, socialist ignorant superior intellectual canadian .......... man!

peace, pass the pipe

 

[othello]

'intellectual investigation' and intellectually 'intellectual 'research'

hey pally I handed you an informed opinion a few threads back why dont you put yer mouth where yer money is and answer that and half million other threads on the issue that we've tired everyone to death with ..but what do I know? I'm just a pot smoking hippie, socialist ignorant superior intellectual canadian .......... man!

peace, pass the pipe

/takes pipe...

*5 minutes later*

ok, now... what informed opinion was this? i dont get a lot of them on these forums, so i apologize if i looked over yours.

 

[clarky003]

dunno if this has been posted before, but this is disgraceful, I wish the best for you guys, cause quite frankly your country is tearing itself appart, indicating something is very wrong, and the government has to be put in the hot seat. every second of their stay if needs be.

http://arizona.indymedia.org/news/2004/11/22767.php

The world smells the fish, but half the American population still thinks the government is feeding them the truth with no propoganda (Ive seen sheep get scared in a field , reaction wise its very similar). Maybe if some could get a fresh perspective on things, away from the day to day brainwashing it might become more clear just how obsurb it all seems.

its turning into a policed state, big brother style, paranoia, you cant live your lives like that, and there isnt any real threat other than what is created in your head, as searching Iraq proved.

 

[SunHawk]

Indymedia..what a wonderful example of a fair and balanced news source.

NOT.

 

[CptStern]

Indymedia..what a wonderful example of a fair and balanced news source.

NOT.

no less biased than cnn ..at least they dont fill their articles with quiant little stories about how brave american soldiers are

 

[Hapless]

no less biased than cnn ..at least they dont fill their articles with quiant little stories about how brave american soldiers are

Yes, everyone knows that marching in the streets protesting a war takes much more courage than going to fight in it. You and your high horse continue to disgust me.

Hapless - Former cowardly american soldier.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

...Right

at least they dont fill their articles with quiant little stories about how brave american soldiers are

Oh were sorry, are soldiers supposed to be cowardly?

 

[Hapless]

And before you cut and paste some article about Abu Ghraib, in an attempt to paint all American soldiers as cowards, let me just mention that every Canadian I have ever run into I've arrested for theft. Every single one. The best were the two I arrested for stealing DirecTV access cards from WalMart. THey had over 900 stolen access cards from stores all throughout the Midwest. Talk about arrogance. They were the most arrogant, nasty, pieces of crap I've ever had the displeasure of dealing with. And that includes hardcore gangbangers. I guess that means all Canadians are thieving, arrogant pieces of crap, huh?

 

[CptStern]

Yes, everyone knows that marching in the streets protesting a war takes much more courage than going to fight in it. You and your high horse continue to disgust me.

Hapless - Former cowardly american soldier.

no ...being the sole voice of reason in a sea of conformity takes far more courage than blindly following the status quo

you and your "support state terrorism" mentality sicken me

 

[CptStern]

And before you cut and paste some article about Abu Ghraib, in an attempt to paint all American soldiers as cowards, let me just mention that every Canadian I have ever run into I've arrested for theft. Every single one. The best were the two I arrested for stealing DirecTV access cards from WalMart. THey had over 900 stolen access cards from stores all throughout the Midwest. Talk about arrogance. They were the most arrogant, nasty, pieces of crap I've ever had the displeasure of dealing with. And that includes hardcore gangbangers. I guess that means all Canadians are thieving, arrogant pieces of crap, huh?

ah you reveal your true colors ..thanks for giving me a mental image of Sheriff Buford T Justice to go along with the name Hapless

 

[Hapless]

ah you reveal your true colors ..thanks for giving me a mental image of Sheriff Buford T Justice to go along with the name Hapless

No, you're not arrogant at all. Maybe I should post a clip of the McKenzie brothers............

 

[Hapless]

no ...being the sole voice of reason in a sea of conformity takes far more courage than blindly following the status quo

you and your "support state terrorism" mentality sicken me

But Stern, I thought you "marched with millions in Barcelona." Were you the sole voice of reason in THAT sea of conformity?

 

[CptStern]

no i wasnt in barcelona ...oh and they had every right to march: 80% of spaniards were against their country joining the coalition ..Zapatero had the popular vote, as the last election proved

 

[CptStern]

No, you're not arrogant at all. Maybe I should post a clip of the McKenzie brothers............

ah that's so old school I would have preferred Pierre Burton or Trudeau

 

[Hapless]

no i wasnt in barcelona ...oh and they had every right to march: 80% of spaniards were against their country joining the coalition ..Zapatero had the popular vote, as the last election proved

I myself was in a crowd of about 70,000 protestors ...in Barcelona alone they had 2 million protestors

Ok, I was wrong. It's been awhile.

 

[Hapless]

ah that's so old school I would have preferred Pierre Burton or Trudeau

I should have listed Strange Brew in the cult movies thread. Classic.