Blunkett quits

[Edcrab]

Obtuse analogies? I'm the man who once claimed a politician was pulling his plans out of a pond full of manic Koi Carp- that it was pure chance whether he got a decent proposal (albiet one that was a bit damp) or an angry brightly coloured fish. You're among friends

It's quite true that neither of us are likely to switch sides on this controversial fence (I mean, who can blame us, its topped with barbed wire and Conservatives for crying out loud); but for the record I don't think killing a mere thief is appropriate either. It's just that I question how well the justice system will serve those who acted on impulse and genuinely didn't mean to kill the man/woman/killer robot/sock-eating plant- fortunately, all this is far rarer than the tabloids have led some to believe.

 

[el Chi]

Yeah you gotta love the tabloids. And the Tories.

 

[KoreBolteR]

Are you Voting in the next UK election? (uk people, lol)
if so who u votin 4?

 

[Razor]

Are you serious? You think that someone breaking and entering is worthy of being murdered!? I mean, of course you're going to be furious, and of course they're a bad person but I wouldn't say that they deserved to die for it. And if you killed them then I'd convict you without a second though if I was on your jury. I might waver towards a conviction of manslaughter, but either way, you're going down. Can we say Tony Martin, anyone?
I'm not so sure about them beiong too soft on burglars, etc. What I was referring to was the police's somewhat suspect history on racial convictions... Can we say Steven Lawrence, anyone?

I think you're an idiot and i hope you never become anyone of any power at all or are put on any jury?

But then, it all depends on the situation. If someone breaks into my house with a knife or a gun, i am going to kill them to defend, not only myself, but my family and my property. And i will cheer and support anyone who does it as a hero/heroine, that is, even if the robber motives were to just threaten and steal.

But then, what would you do? I break into your house with a knife, you stumble across me, i am surprised by you and take a swing at you with the knife, you pick up a pen knife and stab me in the face with it, killing me out cold. You are arrested for murder, and sent to prison for 15 years. Would you really think that was fair?

 

[el Chi]

I think you're an idiot and i hope you never become anyone of any power at all or are put on any jury?

Why thanks! Always a nice, balanced way to propose an argument! :hmph:

But then, it all depends on the situation. If someone breaks into my house with a knife or a gun, i am going to kill them to defend, not only myself, but my family and my property. And i will cheer and support anyone who does it as a hero/heroine, that is, even if the robber motives were to just threaten and steal.

If an intruder has a gun then I have no problem with you taking whatever steps necessary to defend you life. Obviously I'd consider it a shame that the person got killed, but I would completely sympathise with you.

But then, what would you do? I break into your house with a knife, you stumble across me, i am surprised by you and take a swing at you with the knife, you pick up a pen knife and stab me in the face with it, killing me out cold. You are arrested for murder, and sent to prison for 15 years. Would you really think that was fair?

All I am saying - and have been saying for the duration of the thread - is that, whilst the heat of the moment is an important factor, I do not believe that lethal force is always permissible. If it's clearly an accident then, as I said, I sympathise and might very well acquit you. If I was more unsure and it seemed somewhat more malicious than that I might go with manslaughter and definitely not a hefty sentence like 15 years. If you take a pop at an intruder who is RUNNING AWAY with a shotgun, the chances are very good that you will severely injure or kill your target, should you hit them. In that situation, I would very probably convict you of murder. They were stealing, they did not, as far as I recall, threaten his life.

Isn't there always emphasis on "human life is more important than property"? Wouldn't you say that's true? So it's ok for you to kill someone for stealing some material things?
The counter-argument after that point generally follows along the lines of "Aah, but these people are scumbags and don't deserve to live." and then I point out that, whilst they may be c*nts, there are socio-economic factors to be considered. Not only that, but the fact that rehabilitation is possible.
These are points that I have made before. Previously in the thread. The one that you just contributed to. By restating other people's arguments. And insulting me. So thanks for that, it was illuminating.


KoreBolter Sadly, I may very well go for the LibDems. I say "sadly" - I don't love them greatly, nor do I have any illusions that they'll get in but as far as I can see, they're the lesser of three evils. If it looks too tight to call 'twixt Labour and the Tories, I'll vote Labour. I'll vote Labour happily when Blair steps down.

 

[Razor]

Isn't there always emphasis on "human life is more important than property"? Wouldn't you say that's true? So it's ok for you to kill someone for stealing some material things?
The counter-argument after that point generally follows along the lines of "Aah, but these people are scumbags and don't deserve to live." and then I point out that, whilst they may be c*nts, there are socio-economic factors to be considered. Not only that, but the fact that rehabilitation is possible.
These are points that I have made before. Previously in the thread. The one that you just contributed to. By restating other people's arguments. And insulting me. So thanks for that, it was illuminating.

If i stumble across an intruder in my house, i have no idea of their motive to be there. If they have a knife, it could be a pre-planned murder attempt against me or my family. Who knows, they might kill me , my family, and then be guarenteed to take what they want with relative ease.

Fine, if the guy or girl has just broken into my house, i attack the guy, he makes no attempt to defend himself and run off as soon as he can, i wouldn't stab him in the back. But then, Tony Martin had been victimised repeatedly by the same people, and he was proven to be mental scared.

The problem with UK law is, if a person attacks me in the street in broad day light, the only thing i can do is run away, if i make any attempt to fight back, i can be arrested for assault and dealth with as harshly as the guy who attacked me.

 

[Eg.]

sad, a lady in the US had electrified window, shes 89, a ribber died after trying to tweak the volts on the window, he died, and his wife sued. these people need a shotgun to the head

 

[Kangy]

Yeah, the people who sue because they, or a relative got hurt robbing people don't deserve a penny, and perhaps a slap on the wrist for wasting time.

 

[Eg.]

goddamn i need to spell check my posts

 

[Razor]

sad, a lady in the US had electrified window, shes 89, a ribber died after trying to tweak the volts on the window, he died, and his wife sued. these people need a shotgun to the head

Which is why both Uk and Us law is flawed. The woman shouldn't of married an idiot who likes to rob old ladies, so it is all her fault anyway.

 

[el Chi]

If i stumble across an intruder in my house, i have no idea of their motive to be there. If they have a knife, it could be a pre-planned murder attempt against me or my family. Who knows, they might kill me , my family, and then be guarenteed to take what they want with relative ease.

The problem with UK law is, if a person attacks me in the street in broad day light, the only thing i can do is run away, if i make any attempt to fight back, i can be arrested for assault and dealth with as harshly as the guy who attacked me.

No, I don't think that's entirely right. I could be wrong, but I'm almost sure that self defense comes into play if not as a factor in someone's arrest, then at least in someone's trial. But, just as if it were the same if they'd broken into your house, there are, in my view, limits to what you can get away with.

sad, a lady in the US had electrified window, shes 89, a ribber died after trying to tweak the volts on the window, he died, and his wife sued. these people need a shotgun to the head

For once, and I hate to admit it, I almost sort of agree with Eg. Well, inasmuch as that the wife shouldn't be able to sue the old woman. Perhaps her home defenses were questionable to outright illegal, but seeing as he shouldn't have been breaking into her house in the first place, I hardly think you can sue. But then bereavement makes you do funny, desperate things. Ironically of course, if her attempt had worked, they would've got money out of the old women one way or another.
As for the shotgun to the head? Nah. Don't be f*cking ridiculous.

Which is why both Uk and Us law is flawed. The woman shouldn't of married an idiot who likes to rob old ladies, so it is all her fault anyway.

Well, that's just plain silly.

 

[Eg.]

no, her home defense was legal, she had electrified windows and warnig signs, the robber died after try to diable the power junction box next to a window, he slipped and had a screw driver in th power box and a hand on the window. fried

 

[el Chi]

I assume his wife's attempt to sue was unsuccessful?

 

[Edcrab]

It better have been. That woman is one of the few people on this Earth I could happily see beaten with a cricket bat until she repents for trying to make the justice system a bigger joke than it already is. Well, perhaps not, but she should've been arrested on the spot for attempting to waste court time- her "case" should never have even come to the fore. Blasted compensation-culture idiots and their habit of wedding despicable excuses for men...

 

[el Chi]

Blasted compensation-culture idiots and their habit of wedding despicable excuses for men...

Well, I agree with the first part of that statement. The habit of suing anyone at the drop of a hat makes el Chi sad.

Your husband died. How sad. What could make things better?
SUE SOMEBODY! Money! That's what will make up for the loss of a loved one! Oh good! A protracted legal battle! That'll help the healing process!

And all these blood-sucking companies springing up: "Have you had a minor accident that wasn't technically your own fault? Can you prove that? Sue somebody into next tuesday for the slightest little thing! Wheeeey!"