Early christmas gift to myself (I"m so gangsta)

[CptStern]

The **** does that have to do with anything? Besides the fact that it's not strictly true.

that has everything to do with it, one is made strictly for killing the other for cutting stuff (kitchen knife)..and what gun isnt made to kill stuff?

Are you suggesting that shooting yourself in the throat with a gun a recreational pastime?

you tell me, you seem to think spraying yourself with body spray is ..and yes some people do play russian roulette ..probably not as much as competitive Lynx spraying but it happens

Perhaps because they're only safe if handled correctly and responsibly, and they need to be kept away from people who don't know how to handle them safely?

that's a nice sentiment but the reality is that pretty much anyone with heartbeat older than a certain age and with little to no training can purchase a firearm ..in fact there are over accidental 20,000 deaths/injuries per year, and that's only for kids under the age of 20 ...someone isnt being very safe ..in fact a whole bunch of people arent being safe


http://www.futureofchildren.org/faq2864/faq_show.htm?doc_id=116926

 

[Stigmata]

Now riddle me this, if guns are so dangerous, why do they give 12 year old cadets small arms training?

Because they're stupid? I don't know, giving children the means to accidentally kill one of their friends seems a tad dangerous. But that's just me.

 

[firenbrimstone]

I've never shot a gun, and I'll never own one. Not because I think they are wrong, but because I'm 110% positive I'd use one. In a bad way.

I respect lawful gunowners and their right to bear arms. I know myself well enough to know that I wouldn't be able to resist the temptation just to pop off a few shots. :sniper:

Guns by themselves aren't necessarily dangerous. It's the jackasses that lack any measure of self-control, or training, or get drunk and stupid, or any number of random reasons... THEY are the ones that make guns dangerous. A gun, sitting on a shelf, even fully loaded... isn't going to kill someone. When a finger is placed on the trigger, that's when things go downhill.

We should let the guns run free, and put people in padded cells.

 

[repiV]

that has everything to do with it, one is made strictly for killing the other for cutting stuff (kitchen knife)..and what gun isnt made to kill stuff?

It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with it.
What it was originally designed for has no bearing on the danger it presents - it's completely and utterly irrelevant.
.22 guns, for a start, are not made to kill stuff. They're made for target shooting.

you tell me, you seem to think spraying yourself with body spray is ..

Err, no. I'm simply pointing out that plenty of everyday household items are equally as or more dangerous than guns when handled incorrectly.

and yes some people do play russian roulette ..probably not as much as competitive Lynx spraying but it happens

So what? That's their business. The same way it's your business if you want to get decapitated playing ice hockey and it's my business if I want to break my legs riding motorcycles.

that's a nice sentiment but the reality is that pretty much anyone with heartbeat older than a certain age and with little to no training can purchase a firearm ..in fact there are over accidental 20,000 deaths/injuries per year, and that's only for kids under the age of 20 ...someone isnt being very safe ..in fact a whole bunch of people arent being safe

http://www.futureofchildren.org/faq2864/faq_show.htm?doc_id=116926

Hang on a minute, when did this change from being a discussion about the inherent dangers of responsibly handled firearms - by someone like xcellerate - to the politics of access to firearms?
I didn't get the memo.

 

[repiV]

Because they're stupid? I don't know, giving children the means to accidentally kill one of their friends seems a tad dangerous. But that's just me.

Yeah, let's take away the bunsen burners from chemistry class and the swiss army knives from scouts while we're at it.

 

[Phobie]

You said you wouldn't want yourself or anyone else you know doing anything that's more dangerous than shooting a gun.
Which does mean that you have to live in a padded cell, since you expose yourself to far more danger every time you get in a car, walk the streets of London or eat fast food.

Now riddle me this, if guns are so dangerous, why do they give 12 year old cadets small arms training?

I'll riddle your face. Because if we've learned nothing else from Americans (sorry Americans, I love you really), it's that the human race is retarded.

I don't eat fast food (or at least VERY rarely), I don't drive or usually use cars, and surprise surprise, I don't fire guns, or do anything that I would class more dangerous than doing so. I reckon using a gun is more dangerous than anything you named.

 

[CptStern]

It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with it.
What it was originally designed for has no bearing on the danger it presents - it's completely and utterly irrelevant.
.22 guns, for a start, are not made to kill stuff. They're made for target shooting.

exclusively for target shooting? I cant kill small game? younger siblings? and yes it was relevant, to the point we were talking about. You yourself opened the door when you said

The same applies to a kitchen knife. You're more likely to injure yourself or someone else operating one of those than you are operating a gun.

kitchen knives are not made for recreation just like guns are made for killing things ..I could use a firearm to crack open walnuts, but does that make guns walnut crackers? no, it's still made to kill things

Err, no. I'm simply pointing out that plenty of everyday household items are equally as or more dangerous than guns when handled incorrectly.

name a single home item that is as easy to kill as a gun is ..an infant can kill with a gun, let me see that same infant kill with a refrigerator or washing machine ..none of these household items were made exclusively to kill people

So what? That's their business. The same way it's your business if you want to get decapitated playing ice hockey and it's my business if I want to break my legs riding motorcycles.

it becomes my business because they shouldnt be allowed to have power over my life or death

Hang on a minute, when did this change from being a discussion about the inherent dangers of responsibly handled firearms - by someone like xcellerate - to the politics of access to firearms?
I didn't get the memo.

I dont know, I was joking up to the point you entered into the thread ..perhaps you're catalyst :E

 

[repiV]

Because if we've learned nothing else from Americans (sorry Americans, I love you really), it's that the human race is retarded.

I don't eat fast food (or at least VERY rarely), I don't drive or usually use cars, and surprise surprise, I don't fire guns, or do anything that I would class more dangerous than doing so. I reckon using a gun is more dangerous than anything you named.

Yet you've never fired a gun. From what I can tell, xcellerate and myself are the only participants in this discussion who have any experience with firearms.
They are not dangerous in any way, shape or form, so long as you operate them responsibly - it's as simple as that.

And I don't mean this in an offensive way, but your life must be extremely dull if you won't even use a car because it's too dangerous.

 

[Stigmata]

Yeah, let's take away the bunsen burners from chemistry class and the swiss army knives from scouts while we're at it.

We'll get right on that once we start getting thousands of deaths due to accidental bunsen burner use.

 

[Phobie]

Yet you've never fired a gun. From what I can tell, xcellerate and myself are the only participants in this discussion who have any experience with firearms.
They are not dangerous in any way, shape or form, so long as you operate them responsibly - it's as simple as that.

And I don't mean this in an offensive way, but your life must be extremely dull if you won't even use a car because it's too dangerous.

Did I say that I didn't use a car because it's TOO DANGEROUS? No. I simply said that I didn't use them, often. Of course I use them sometimes, I think most people do. I live in London, therefore I don't need to drive. Before this I lived in Paris and my parents didn't drive, and before that we lived in Boston... same story. I'm big into public transport, as I don't feel that we NEED to drive. Plus, in London the average speed is something like 9MPH so I'm hardly like to die in a horrible crash.

 

[repiV]

exclusively for target shooting? I cant kill small game? younger siblings? and yes it was relevant, to the point we were talking about. You yourself opened the door when you said

A moment ago your argument was about what they were designed for, now it's about what they can be used for? Make up your mind.

kitchen knives are not made for recreation just like guns are made for killing things ..I could use a firearm to crack open walnuts, but does that make guns walnut crackers? no, it's still made to kill things

It has no bearing on what the gun is actually used for, or the dangers it presents, so again, what it was originally designed for is completely irrelevant.

name a single home item that is as easy to kill as a gun is ..an infant can kill with a gun, let me see that same infant kill with a refrigerator or washing machine ..none of these household items were made exclusively to kill people

It depends on the gun. A butcher's knife will kill you a lot more dead than a small calibre, single-shot rifle/handgun will.
I fail to see your point regarding infants because they shouldn't be getting their hands on guns in the first place. I could use exactly the same argument against computer games - ban violent games because they corrupt the minds of children. And it would be equally ridiculous.

it becomes my business because they shouldnt be allowed to have power over my life or death

Thousands of people have power over your life or death every single goddamn day. Whether or not they own a gun has very little bearing on that.
I've narrowly avoided being killed or seriously injured by idiotic car drivers up to five times a day, and yet I've never been at risk from a gun or in fact any other object wielded as a weapon. I'd say bad and inconsiderate driving is far more of a humanitarian disaster than legally owned firearms.

 

[repiV]

Did I say that I didn't use a car because it's TOO DANGEROUS? No. I simply said that I didn't use them, often. Of course I use them sometimes, I think most people do. I live in London, therefore I don't need to drive. Before this I lived in Paris and my parents didn't drive, and before that we lived in Boston... same story. I'm big into public transport, as I don't feel that we NEED to drive. Plus, in London the average speed is something like 9MPH so I'm hardly like to die in a horrible crash.

London is by far the most dangerous traffic environment in the country, don't be fooled by "average speed".

 

[evil^milk]

America,

FUCK YEAH!

 

[Phobie]

London is the most dangerous traffic environment in the country, don't be fooled by "average speed".

"Londoners have lower death rates than the England average for most accidents, but higher rates from injuries due to accidental fires, poisoning and homicide. The biggest causes of death from injury are: suicide which accounts for over 700 deaths per year; falls, which kill nearly 400; and road traffic accidents (almost 300 Londoners every year)."

I'm more likely to die from suicide (which isn't happening), or poisoning, so I'm gonna take a chance and say I'll be fine.

 

[repiV]

"Londoners have lower death rates than the England average for most accidents, but higher rates from injuries due to accidental fires, poisoning and homicide. The biggest causes of death from injury are: suicide which accounts for over 700 deaths per year; falls, which kill nearly 400; and road traffic accidents (almost 300 Londoners every year)."

I'm more likely to die from suicide (which isn't happening), or poisoning, so I'm gonna take a chance and say I'll be fine.

Yes, I'm sure you will, but that's 10% of the yearly fatalities across the entire country!
More importantly, the dire standard of driving in London and the selfish behaviour of people in their cars here makes it extremely dangerous for people on two wheels.
I've had so many near misses while commuting it's unbelievable. I shrug them off as a daily occurence. A few days before I had my big smash, I was actually considering giving up using the bike to commute and taking the tube instead, because riding in London is just so damn dangerous. And my love of riding and my hatred of the tube is no secret, so that should really mean something.
If I got knocked off and paralysed for life because some idiot couldn't be bothered to look before he decided to move into my lane, he might get some points on his license for careless driving. If that level of negligence resulted in someone's death in any other area of life, he'd go to prison for a few years. Where's the justice?

 

[Phobie]

Yes, I'm sure you will, but that's 10% of the yearly fatalities across the entire country!
More importantly, the dire standard of driving in London and the selfish behaviour of people in their cars here makes it extremely dangerous for people on two wheels.
I've had so many near misses while commuting it's unbelievable. I shrug them off as a daily occurence. A few days before I had my big smash, I was actually considering giving up using the bike to commute and taking the tube instead, because riding in London is just so damn dangerous. And my love of riding and my hatred of the tube is no secret, so that should really mean something.
If I got knocked off and paralysed for life because some idiot couldn't be bothered to look before he decided to move into my lane, he might get some points on his license for careless driving. If that level of negligence resulted in someone's death in any other area of life, he'd go to prison for a few years. Where's the justice?

This is beginning to get ridiculous. I've been living in London for nine years, 6 of which I have been commuting, to school, work and now university. NEVER have I almost been hit by a car, or in fact hit by one. I don't want to use a bike because I think that's just asking for trouble in a city with no cars, I'd rather walk to the tube, and then...get the tube. I'm not likely to get hit by a car in a tube station. If you put yourself in a situation where you're likely to get hit by a car, then you're asking for it.

Remember to look both ways!

 

[Stigmata]

Yes, I'm sure you will, but that's 10% of the yearly fatalities across the entire country!
More importantly, the dire standard of driving in London and the selfish behaviour of people in their cars here makes it extremely dangerous for people on two wheels.
I've had so many near misses while commuting it's unbelievable. I shrug them off as a daily occurence. A few days before I had my big smash, I was actually considering giving up using the bike to commute and taking the tube instead, because riding in London is just so damn dangerous. And my love of riding and my hatred of the tube is no secret, so that should really mean something.
If I got knocked off and paralysed for life because some idiot couldn't be bothered to look before he decided to move into my lane, he might get some points on his license for careless driving. If that level of negligence resulted in someone's death in any other area of life, he'd go to prison for a few years. Where's the justice?

1) Of course car-related deaths in London account for 10% of the country-wide deaths, when it's the biggest city in the country.

2) You're intentionally putting yourself in harm's way because you love riding a motorcycle. Very romantic in the classical sense, and very stupid in every sense.

 

[repiV]

This is beginning to get ridiculous. I've been living in London for nine years, 6 of which I have been commuting, to school, work and now university. NEVER have I almost been hit by a car, or in fact hit by one. I don't want to use a bike because I think that's just asking for trouble in a city with no cars, I'd rather walk to the tube, and then...get the tube. I'm not likely to get hit by a car in a tube station.

What? Of course you've never been almost hit by a car, that's because you don't ride a bike. I was talking specifically about getting around the city via motorcycle, I thought that was entirely obvious but there we go.

It's fascinating that you're oblivious to/don't give a shit about the extreme danger cyclists and motorcyclists in London face on a daily basis, yet you throw a hissy fit about responsibly handled firearms.

If you put yourself in a situation where you're likely to get hit by a car, then you're asking for it.

So I deserve to get killed or injured because so many of London's drivers are criminally negligent? Thanks for clearing that up.
Are you asking to get raped if you wear revealing clothes...?

 

[xcellerate]

name a single home item that is as easy to kill as a gun is ..an infant can kill with a gun, let me see that same infant kill with a refrigerator or washing machine ..none of these household items were made exclusively to kill people

I'm sorry but that's just nonsense. An infant can ONLY kill with a gun if you have the magazine in the weapon, a round chambered, the safety off (the secondary safety as well; yes, some guns have 2 (like mine)) and even then it takes about 5lbs of pressure to depress the trigger. And that's on an UNsafe gun, some guns have grip safeties and trigger safeties as well.

That's just a really silly argument, because the 'infant' case only applies to such a small % of handguns. Revolves are the least safe of any handgun, but even if an infant did get his hands on one...the infant that could pull that trigger would have to be the son of Hercules.

And anybody the leaves a gun in that state in a position where an infant can get it deserves exactly what happens and more.


So to bring that info to your refrigerator argument; it would be like having your refrigerator hoisted above your bed on a rope with a quick release attached, and then you lay the quick release cable in your infants crib while you're asleep.





It really makes me wonder if this same argument would have happened if I had bought a crossbow....

 

[Phobie]

What? Of course you've never been almost hit by a car, that's because you don't ride a bike. I was talking specifically about getting around the city via motorcycle, I thought that was entirely obvious but there we go.

It's fascinating that you're oblivious to/don't give a shit about the extreme danger cyclists and motorcyclists in London face on a daily basis, yet you throw a hissy fit about responsibly handled firearms.



So I deserve to get killed or injured because so many of London's drivers are criminally negligent? Thanks for clearing that up.
Are you asking to get raped if you wear revealing clothes...?

Actually you're right, I don't give a shit about motorcyclists, I think they're extremely irresponsible, just like guns. So ok, that's cleared up.

And rape has nothing to do with this, but I don't wear revealing clothes really, so that's also that cleared up!

End!

 

[repiV]

1) Of course car-related deaths in London account for 10% of the country-wide deaths, when it's the biggest city in the country.

It has higher than its fair share. It's the most dangerous traffic environment in the country. That's all I said, what's so hard to comprehend?

2) You're intentionally putting yourself in harm's way because you love riding a motorcycle. Very romantic in the classical sense, and very stupid in every sense.

The same way it's very stupid to walk through New York City because you're intentionally exposing yourself to street crime?
Gimme a break.

 

[repiV]

Actually you're right, I don't give a shit about motorcyclists, I think they're extremely irresponsible, just like guns. So ok, that's cleared up.

I think you're a self-righteous, sanctimonious bitch - and I hope you die too. Hope we're cleared that up.
Well over 90% of motorcycle accidents in London are caused by car drivers. The figure is not much lower than that nationwide, either. So maybe you should take your ****ing prejudiced views and shove them up your arse. **** you.

And rape has nothing to do with this, but I don't wear revealing clothes really, so that's also that cleared up!

End!

Oh but it does. If it's my fault that other drivers cause me danger, then it's your fault if you get raped. Don't expect any sympathy from me if that ever happens to you.

 

[Qonfused]

/popcorn

 

[baka-raven]

dear god not this stupid debate again.

RepiV: I was in the army for a couple of years. I think it fair to say i tried shooting with a gun (M95, Carl Gustav , TMG, LMG, Pistol and AT4, hell even TOW)

AND i still think its the most stupid thing to give ordinary people the right to bear arms. Accidents will happen, people are retarted, and sooner or later one will forget to remove the last bullet from the chamber or something else, and then we have the accident.
Sure it can be fun to fire a gun. But having weapon in ordinary peoples house just begs for accidents.

So im with CptStern on this one

 

[Phobie]

I think you're a self-righteous, sanctimonious bitch - and I hope you die too. Hope we're cleared that up.
Well over 90% of motorcycle accidents in London are caused by car drivers. The figure is not much lower than that nationwide, either. So maybe you should take your ****ing prejudiced views and shove them up your arse. **** you.



Oh but it does. If it's my fault that other drivers cause me danger, then it's your fault if you get raped. Don't expect any sympathy from me if that ever happens to you.

Lordy, how can I not reply to this type of thing. Look, I'm sorry if I caused offence to you, it was harsh of me to say that "I don't give a shit" about motorcyclists, of course I care if they are in danger. All I meant is that if you want to ride a motorcycle then you are taking significant risks, even if figures say that the accidents are caused by motorists. I don't want you to die, and I never said such things, but thanks anyway for your sensitive words.

My views may be slightly biased because I don't drive or ride a motorbike, but I still believe what I believe, even if you decide to take offence.

So I'm sorry if I caused some sort of horrific offence, I didn't mean to, I think that the whole off-topic thing got taken too far.

 

[repiV]

dear god not this stupid debate again.

RepiV: I was in the army for a couple of years. I think it fair to say i tried shooting with a gun (M95, Carl Gustav , TMG, LMG, Pistol and AT4, hell even TOW)

AND i still think its the most stupid thing to give ordinary people the right to bear arms. Accidents will happen, people are retarted, and sooner or later one will forget to remove the last bullet from the chamber or something else, and then we have the accident.
Sure it can be fun to fire a gun. But having weapon in ordinary peoples house just begs for accidents.

So im with CptStern on this one

That's fine and dandy, but that's not what the discussion was about.

Yes, accidents will happen sometimes. Yes, some people are retarded. It doesn't change the fact that there is no danger involved in the responsible operation of a firearm and that xcellerate poses no danger to himself or anyone else.
Mainly I'm just pissed at everyone giving the guy shit just because he enjoys shooting. It's as valid a sport as any other. They do it in the Olympics, after all.

 

[Qonfused]

He's been here long enough to know about the strong anti-gun population here. He should have known better.

 

[baka-raven]

well we wouldnt have this stupid debate again if people just realised that gunst shouldnt be bought at walmart or toys'r'us...

sorry but the US of A really have a problem with guns. i dont have anything against you guys, but you really should get some gun control.

 

[repiV]

Lordy, how can I not reply to this type of thing. Look, I'm sorry if I caused offence to you, it was harsh of me to say that "I don't give a shit" about motorcyclists, of course I care if they are in danger. All I meant is that if you want to ride a motorcycle then you are taking significant risks, even if figures say that the accidents are caused by motorists. I don't want you to die, and I never said such things, but thanks anyway for your sensitive words.

My views may be slightly biased because I don't drive or ride a motorbike, but I still believe what I believe, even if you decide to take offence.

So I'm sorry if I caused some sort of horrific offence, I didn't mean to, I think that the whole off-topic thing got taken too far.

No problem - so long as you recognise that people aren't irresponsible just because they choose to ride a bike. Using a bike as your only transport requires a level of skill, observation and responsibility infinitely higher than that required to drive a car. It's a well known fact that bikers make much better car drivers.
The point is that, yes, the biker's the one that's going to end up in hospital (if he's lucky), regardless of who was at fault, but it's not acceptable to just overlook the killing and maiming of disproportionate numbers of bikers by clueless drivers every year.
Motorcycle training gets more and more difficult, and more and more people try to restrict our freedom to ride, yet nothing is done to address the core problem of a lack of driving skills.

Now, relating this back to the guns thing, my point is - people are always chasing after these moral red herrings, like gun ownership, and ignore the real issues. A few days before I wrecked my bike (and yes, I did that because I was being temporarily irresponsible, but that doesn't mean I deserved to be seriously injured) a guy damn near drove into the side of me on Park Lane. Changed lanes without even looking, I swerved over and he missed me by about half a foot. Beeped him and he looked, waved an apology and moved back into his lane.
He will suffer no consequences as a result of his actions. Even if he'd killed me, he would only get a small fine and points. If that had been a man with a gun who accidentally killed someone through negligence, he'd be up for manslaughter. There's no justice.

 

[repiV]

He's been here long enough to know about the strong anti-gun population here. He should have known better.

Why should he keep quiet about his interests just because some people here have an inherent need to lecture others about how they live their lives?

It's noones damn business.

 

[Druckles]

Now you're ready to start killing people.

/thread

Psht, guns are for pansies. And people who can't start a brawl with a chair leg.

 

[xcellerate]

sorry but the US of A really have a problem with guns. i dont have anything against you guys, but you really should get some gun control.

What exactly could we do extra? Require people to pass a written test about how to safely operate a gun (like we do with cars)?

I mean, we already do a background check and register the gun in your name as well as register you as a gun owner. As well as requiring you to be 21 to buy a handgun or handgun ammunition, and it's illegal to carry one without a permit or to discharge one anywhere except designated areas.

What else could we do short of just not selling guns?

 

[Druckles]

What exactly could we do extra? Require people to pass a written test about how to safely operate a gun (like we do with cars)?

I was expecting something ridiculous, but that'd be brilliant.