Ethanol as an alternative fuel

[sinkoman]

I'm curious as to why I don't hear more about ethanol being used as an alternative fuel in the near future. It seems like the perfect thing to use, in my ignorant eyes, as the only major engine modification required (to my equally ignorant knowledge) is to that of the fuel tank, to compensate for ethanols hydrophilic nature.

 

[Muffin Man]

Too little corns.

 

[sinkoman]

Too little corns.

Why not convert land plots already in use by oil refineries to the cultivation of ethanol specific media

 

[ricera10]

Too little corns.

That sums it up. The mexicans are struggling with highly inflated corn prices right now, and its really hurting.

 

[hneaz]

doesn ethanol give you less gas mileage?

 

[bbson john]

Ethanol vapor irritates eye. And not so many of us are willing to switch the engine.

 

[sinkoman]

Ethanol vapor irritates eyes. And not so many of us willing to switch the engine.

I don't believe you need to switch the engine.

 

[bbson john]

I don't believe you need to switch the engine.

Most of the engines need to do so. *pause and countercheck*

[edit] ahhh.... it consumes more fuel than it has to if you don't switch the engine. So you'd better change the engine.

 

[sinkoman]

Most of the engines need to do so. *pause and countercheck*

I believe it's mainly modifications to the ignition system and fuel tank, nothing too major.

And that's only on vehicles operating in colder climates.

*wondering what pause and countercheck means*

 

[bbson john]

*wondering what pause and countercheck means*

edited

p.s. Thailand uses bull's shit as fuel.

 

[sinkoman]

edited

p.s. Thailand uses bull's shit as fuel.

That's actually a good idea.

We've got so many god damn cows in the US

 

[Que-Ever]

Why don't we make an alternate fuel out of chickens? That'll show 'em.

 

[Llama]

At the moment, alternative sources of power and fuel will never happen, because of lazy governments and huge economies based on traditional fuels.

 

[Dan]

If all of the cropland in North America was used to grow corn, you could not produce enough ethanol to run half of the cars

 

[bbson john]

If all of the cropland in North America was used to grow corn, you could not produce enough ethanol to run half of the cars

So we got only half of the cars. The air pollution problem is solved as well.

 

[Llama]

yeah, it's just a shame that a lack of motorized transport would totally shut down the world.

 

[bbson john]

use buses

 

[99.vikram]

We turn cow shit into slurry and make biogas. It's not practical on a large scale, but every barrel of oil saved counts.

 

[noQ]

The other half will be using this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmqpGZv0YT4.
lolo

 

[bbson john]

The other half will be using this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmqpGZv0YT4.
lolo

The gas tank will blow at any moment.

 

[sinkoman]

If all of the cropland in North America was used to grow corn, you could not produce enough ethanol to run half of the cars

Marijuana. I believe you can make ethanol from the seed oil.

What is the most ideal renewable fuel source?

 

[Robbo]

Were not using Ethanol because people view it as the same way they view oil, the fact is if we keep growing corn it will keep providing Ethanol.

People see things like Hydrogen cars and completely ignore simple alternatives.
Oh and who the hell cares about inflated corn prices, the Mexicans can go without their corn for a while.

 

[TechnoHippyChic]

Marijuana. I believe you can make ethanol from the seed oil.

What is the most ideal renewable fuel source?

I think you may have answered your own question.

 

[sinkoman]

I think you may have answered your own question.

I knew that hemp could become a very useful resource as far as fuel and energy go, but I didn't realize that it could possibly replace petrol altogether

That link mentions converting the biomass into petrol. I'm interested in how, or even IF, that's realistically possible.

Were not using Ethanol because people view it as the same way they view oil, the fact is if we keep growing corn it will keep providing Ethanol.

People see things like Hydrogen cars and completely ignore simple alternatives.
Oh and who the hell cares about inflated corn prices, the Mexicans can go without their corn for a while.

Think of the Nachos!

 

[Bob_Marley]

Bio fuel from Oilseed Rape is also a viable alternative.

If all the Set-aside in Europe were used to grow oilseed rape for fuel for road viechles, Europe would be indipendent in that reguard.

 

[MiccyNarc]

The reason is simple and I'm surprised no one has posted it yet. The energy invested over energy returned (EIOER) ratio for ethanol is extremely poor. Corn based ethanol has a negative ratio: in other words, it takes more energy to produce the corn than the corn can produce.

The best ethanol sources can only proved a 5 : 1 EIOER ratio. For perspective, oil provides 30 : 1.

And imagine the amount of forests that would need to be destroyed to clear land for all of the fields of plants to create the ethanol.

And what happens when there's a drought?

 

[spookymooky]

The reason is simple and I'm surprised no one has posted it yet. The energy invested over energy returned (EIOER) ratio for ethanol is extremely poor. Corn based ethanol has a negative ratio: in other words, it takes more energy to produce the corn than the corn can produce.

The best ethanol sources can only proved a 5 : 1 EIOER ratio. For perspective, oil provides 30 : 1.

And imagine the amount of forests that would need to be destroyed to clear land for all of the fields of plants to create the ethanol.

And what happens when there's a drought?

QFT
Think of all the farming equipment which uses oil. It can't be moved as easily en masse as oil, as it starts out spread all over the midwest, so now you're dealing with thousands of trucks. Additionally fertilizers and pesticides are often made with petroleum.

 

[tehsolace]

Why not convert land plots already in use by oil refineries to the cultivation of ethanol specific media

yea because you can grow corn anywhere... especially on oil/chemical plants, which are currently the most polluted areas you can find, covered with concrete. /sarcasm


seriously though, converting a concreted oil plant to some sort of corn growing field would probably cost WAY more than you'd be saving in the end from it. too much $.

 

[theotherguy]

Ethanol is probably the worst alternative fuel. You waste tons of gasoline harvesting it, you use up food resources and valuable land, you destroy the environment by overfarming, and in the end it emits more greenhouse gases than oil.

Hydrogen ftw.

 

[Godron]

Unfortunately, biofuels are one of the only alternative fuels that actually don't rely on fossil fuels, other than solar powered electric cars. Hydrogen fuel cell and electric cars both make mad because they claim to be "eco-friendly", whereas in truth they use fossil fuels. Hydrogen cars require energy to electrolise water to make hydrogen and electric cars use mains electricity to charge their batteries, and all that energy of course comes from fossil fuels.

As for mileage, I suppose it's down to how much energy you can store in the fuel tank, and how efficiently the engine converts that energy into movement. Rotary engines are bloody brilliant.

 

[Insano]

A succesful nuclear fusion reactor would solve all our problems. Our energy problem would be history and we wouldn't need the oil anymore, because we can convert water into hydrogen.

 

[Que-Ever]

What we really need are giant bycicles.

 

[theotherguy]

Unfortunately, biofuels are one of the only alternative fuels that actually don't rely on fossil fuels, other than solar powered electric cars. Hydrogen fuel cell and electric cars both make mad because they claim to be "eco-friendly", whereas in truth they use fossil fuels. Hydrogen cars require energy to electrolise water to make hydrogen and electric cars use mains electricity to charge their batteries, and all that energy of course comes from fossil fuels.

As for mileage, I suppose it's down to how much energy you can store in the fuel tank, and how efficiently the engine converts that energy into movement. Rotary engines are bloody brilliant.

Biofuels do use fossil fuels. All of the harvesting and transport equipment runs on oil. In fact, ethanol has a negative energy balance because of this.

Electrolysis isn't the only way to get hydrogen. Hydrogen can be obtained chemically by burning magnesium, it can also be extracted from gallium-aluminum compounds, and can even be produced by bacteria. Ideally, hydrogen-fueled cars could gain their energy from either household or filling station based electrolysis devices powered by solar cells. In the long term we could produce hydrogen using genetically engineered bacteria.

Currently Hydrogen vehicles have about half the mileage of conventional fossil fuel vehicles, and use compressed hydrogen. The efficiency of hydrogen is actually greater than that of gasoline, but hydrogen just happens to be not very dense, and thus difficult to store. In the future, we could store hydrogen in liquid form, or even bathe aluminum-gallium alloys with it, which would give us extreme amounts of storage. We could even use designer nano particles to store vast quantities of hydrogen.

 

[Mr Stabby]

We need large amounts of fossil fuels to produce the fertilizer, to produce the yields of crops we need, the agriculture in Europe is already over strained and biofuels are not feasible in Europe, it may be possible in America though.

 

[Godron]

Ethanol is probably the worst alternative fuel. You waste tons of gasoline harvesting it, you use up food resources and valuable land, you destroy the environment by overfarming, and in the end it emits more greenhouse gases than oil.

...are you saying it would actually take more ethanal to power the machines used for harvesting the crop than you would actually get out of that crop? If so, ethanol is probably doomed as a biofuel.
As for the greenhouse gases - yes, they are released, but they are also taken out of the atmosphere in equal proportions when the plant grows. Think about it, all the carbon in a plant comes from CO2 in the atmosphere, and when you burn the hydrocarbons in the plant it returns to the atmosphere. It's different from burning fossil fuels, where you actually add CO2 to the atmosphere that used to be locked up underground as hydrocarbons.

Hydrogen ftw.

No. See my earlier post.

 

[Godron]

Crap, three posts appeared while I was typing. And my edit button doesn't like me . This is embarressing.

 

[theotherguy]

...are you saying it would actually take more ethanal to power the machines used for harvesting the crop than you would actually get out of that crop? If so, ethanol is probably doomed as a biofuel.
As for the greenhouse gases - yes, they are released, but they are also taken out of the atmosphere in equal proportions when the plant grows. Think about it, all the carbon in a plant comes from CO2 in the atmosphere, and when you burn the hydrocarbons in the plant it returns to the atmosphere. It's different from burning fossil fuels, where you actually add CO2 to the atmosphere that used to be locked up underground as hydrocarbons.

Yes. Ethanol currentley has a negative energy balance. This also means that the amount of CO2 absorbed by the plants is less than the CO2 expended in the burning of the fuel and the harvesting of the corn. Furthermore, excess farming from ethanol production destroys the environment, disrupting biodiversity, adding fertilizers and other pollutants to the soil, and eroding natural topsoil. It's actually much better for the environment to use oil than ethanol.

The only positive aspect of ethanol is that it does not have to be pumped out in the middle east like oil. That is the only reason politicians are making a push for it...well that and farmer incentives.

No. See my earlier post.

No, see my earlier post. Hydrogen is the fuel of the future, and all of our efforts and research should go towards making it cheaper to produce, store and transport, not into this dead-end ethanol garbage.

 

[The Monkey]

Most of the gas stations in Sweden have Ethanol. My family's next car will probably be run on ethanol.

 

[alehm]

Ethanol is less efficient than current fossil fuels so you get less mileage per unit.

There is evidence showing that ethanol may actually put out more smog than petrolium.

Brasil, which is a model for using ethanol in vehicles, has had to buy corn from the US several times when their sugarcane crops didn't product the yeild needed for their country. This brings up an important consideration to ponder, a drought or any wild act in mother nature could cripple a nations ethanol supply quickly and could take months to recover. It would be nothing we have experienced with Opec to date.

Ethanol is currently more expensive. In the summer months when fuels switch to having 10% of ethanol added the price of fuel goes up, not down. So not only are you paying more at the pump, you are getting worse mileage per liter/gallon, and probably putting out more smog.

Ethanol is not the answer. We have to be technologically close to a better solution.

 

[Godron]

Electrolysis isn't the only way to get hydrogen. Hydrogen can be obtained chemically by burning magnesium, it can also be extracted from gallium-aluminum compounds, and can even be produced by bacteria. Ideally, hydrogen-fueled cars could gain their energy from either household or filling station based electrolysis devices powered by solar cells. In the long term we could produce hydrogen using genetically engineered bacteria.

Magnesium? Wouldn't that be expensive? I'd have thought you'd need to get a lot of hydrogen out the stuff to make it economical. Plus, it's not-renewable, unless you plan on using lots of energy to convert the magnesium oxide back into magnesium, all of which would have to be solar energy, lest you use fossil fuels.
Home solar cells powering water electrolysis would work, I think, but they they would be expensive (maybe not in the long run though, due to savings on petrol), and they would be unreliable, at least in places like Britain (due to weather). Also, I don't know how much energy it would take to extract the hydrogen from the water compared to how much power output you'd get from a solar cell, but it might be that you'd be waiting ages for to get enough hydrogen to fill up your tank. We might have to wait for solar cells to become more efficient, is what I'm saying.
Bacteria sound promising, though

Biofuels do use fossil fuels. All of the harvesting and transport equipment runs on oil. In fact, ethanol has a negative energy balance because of this.

Is this THE END of all biofuels?? What about that power plant that runs off chicken shit, what if that has a negative energy balance too? I rather like the idea of biofuels, seeing as they're carbon-neutral and effectively run of solar power. I know there are other bio-fuels used in car engines, I hope they're not all as doomed as ethanol.