mr.crowley
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there is new media and the release date is august 2006
http://www.fortress-forever.com/
http://www.fortress-forever.com/
Fortress Forever release date
- Thread starter mr.crowley
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MuToiD_MaN
The Freeman
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It's going to be a beta ... and the never used the word release. I'll consume it entirely if they do release it, but I'm not crossing my fingers. I've waited over a year and I can wait a few months longer ...
Forceflow
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correction
The beta release date is august 2006.
And if you read Defrag's dev journal, it's a closed beta.
WhiteZero
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oh damn! 
what happened to the good ole' days when beta mods used to be a public affair? there are too many modders nowadays trying to act like they are full fledged COMMERCIAL development teams with their monthly trickle of teasers, closed testing announcements, followed by mostly silence. ;(
CS wasn't any kind of masterpeice product when it was first released to EVERYONE as a BETA in 1999. but it was still a blast! and look at where it is now!
let us, the fans, be the beta testers for gods sake. what have you got to lose?
what happened to the good ole' days when beta mods used to be a public affair? there are too many modders nowadays trying to act like they are full fledged COMMERCIAL development teams with their monthly trickle of teasers, closed testing announcements, followed by mostly silence. ;(
CS wasn't any kind of masterpeice product when it was first released to EVERYONE as a BETA in 1999. but it was still a blast! and look at where it is now!
let us, the fans, be the beta testers for gods sake. what have you got to lose?
Link
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A fan base of over critical people who never play a mod again if the first version isn't perfect.
Look at all the posts around this forum complaining about this bug or that bug like they were a personal kick in the balls from the devs.
Look at all the posts around this forum complaining about this bug or that bug like they were a personal kick in the balls from the devs.
63
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QTF. It's our fault the mod scene is the way it is now.
counter-strike, action quake 2, and desert combat all spring to mind as mods that enjoyed excellent popularity even while they were released as highly unpolished betas.
where are these situations where perfectly good mods have completely failed because of a beta release?
dystopia mod enjoys fairly good popularity from its one mapped buggy release even if the devs hated to admit that it was released as a 'beta'.
where are these situations where perfectly good mods have completely failed because of a beta release?
dystopia mod enjoys fairly good popularity from its one mapped buggy release even if the devs hated to admit that it was released as a 'beta'.
'ancient mods'... lol
So again, where are these situations where perfectly good mods have completely failed primarily because of a public beta release? And how could you prove that?
The idea that unpolished betas hurt mod popularity is only a hypothesis at best. There are a lot of other factors which go into making or breaking a mod. All I'm trying to point out is that it is perfectly possible for a mod to succeed while having a public beta.
Furthermore, I might be more inclined to argue that holding back the release of a mod on an aging gaming engine might very well contribute to a mod suffering from a lack of popularity.
So again, where are these situations where perfectly good mods have completely failed primarily because of a public beta release? And how could you prove that?
The idea that unpolished betas hurt mod popularity is only a hypothesis at best. There are a lot of other factors which go into making or breaking a mod. All I'm trying to point out is that it is perfectly possible for a mod to succeed while having a public beta.
Furthermore, I might be more inclined to argue that holding back the release of a mod on an aging gaming engine might very well contribute to a mod suffering from a lack of popularity.
Link
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'ancient mods'... lol
So again, where are these situations where perfectly good mods have completely failed primarily because of a public beta release? And how could you prove that?
The idea that unpolished betas hurt mod popularity is only a hypothesis at best. There are a lot of other factors which go into making or breaking a mod. All I'm trying to point out is that it is perfectly possible for a mod to succeed while having a public beta.
Furthermore, I might be more inclined to argue that holding back the release of a mod on an aging gaming engine might very well contribute two a mod suffering from a lack of popularity.
You go ahead and roll your eyes in a sarcastic manor. Dosen't change the fact that they are ancient.
Desert combat 2002
Counter strike 1999
Action quake 2 1998
Thats between 4 - 8 years since release. In the world of computer games, thats ancient. And peoples expectations and behaviour as a commuinty has changed. They are more demanding and unforgiving.
Are you honestly trying to tell me you need me to think of a list of mods that by defention, arn't played or updated anymore? Fine, we just need to set some parameters. I would suggest that any game that makes it to the beta stage has a sufficient team to make a complete game. I would also suggest that any mod that has not been updated in 6 months is dead, and has not been updated because the devs feel there is no interest. As such, according to moddb there are some 35 odd mods that fit. Even if its only half that that actually closed due to people bailing for a crap beta, thats hardly something the FF devs are going to want to risk, now is it?
The fact remains, and you need to come to terms with this, that as a community, we are 10 years old, and complain loudly when we don't get our own way, throw all or our toys out of the pram and then walk around claiming we hate said non-way giver. Its a bed that certain elemets have made for us, but we all have to lie in it.
*edit* Aging engine? "ohhh look a straw" *clutches tightly*
the original half lifes modding scene is still alive and kicking 8 years on for an engine that is itself based on something older still. I think source may have a month or to left yet... lol
MuToiD_MaN
The Freeman
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I'm pretty sure you meant "AAAAAH" like screaming rather than "AHHHHH" like a guy in a commercial taking that first gulp of ice cold soda. But I think we all got it anyway. :thumbs:
subjective hot air...
Prove to us that those mods are failing now simply because of 'crap beta' releases and that this is a newly formed trend in the gaming community. Is that the only factor in those mods demise? could it not have something to do with the devs talent? devs support? devs resolve? idea potential?
I've offered you clear examples of mods with public betas succeeding, and you simply dismiss them as 'ancient'. okay...
Prove to us that the community has transformed into '10 year olds' from its state only 4 years ago.
like I said, dystopia mod is enjoying decent popularity right now anyways.
Hidden source, which is in a declared beta, is doing a little better. there's no problems finding good servers for those mods. I play them regularly. so you can't say that unpolished releases killed those mods today. also, I'm going to assume that highly anticipated mods like FF and insurgency would do even better!
so you see, without real examples of betas killing perfectly good potential mods, your arguments mean nothing to me.
it's some of the devs that are changing their ways, not so much the community, IMHO. remember, a lot of us are still the same people from atleast 4 years ago.
I said I might be more inclined to argue that. I wasn't trying to suggest I was actually going to argue it... lol
The problem with RERO...
Although you have a good history of betas with the style of "Release Early, Release Often" (RERO for short), those days are going to the wayside. You point out examples of Empires, Dystopia, and The Hidden - but I'd argue that these only share minimal popularity. I played all three of these mods when they first came out - and I must say I love the innovative gameplay each of these mods offer. The only thing is, I haven't downloaded an updated version of any of them - why? - because I'd rather wait until they are a lot less buggy and out of beta. I believe many random 'Joe Schmoe' gamers take this approach. Sure, it's fun to try the beta, but trying out something that's pretty buggy kind of turns you off to the whole experience.
The problem with mods today is the fact that modding is not as easy as it used to be. Back in the day, mapping was easier, modeling was easier. Go look at TFC, CS, DOD and look at the maps and models - very simple when you compare them to their Source counterparts. With all these advances, people expect more from the games they play. That means maps become more detailed, models become more 'realistic,' etc. I'm sure if you ask any modder that did stuff from the HL1 engine and ask them to compare it to what they do on Source, I'm sure you'll get an answer that it takes exponentially much more time. I mean, take mapping for instance. The graphical capabilities of Source are astounding - but it takes a lot of effort on the part of the mappers to pull it off and make sure to keep a balance between aesthetics and how much of a performance hit you will cause for the gamer. The same thing goes with models, too.
RERO worked in the days of old because there wasn't THAT (relative to now) much to modding. Problems were much easier to fix. If you had a mapping problem back then, the recompile time would not be anywhere near where it is today. Things have become way more complex and people's expectations have risen - and they keep rising (go search different mod forums and see how many people ask if HDR is going to be implemented in the mod). This is why you see more and more mods nothing taking the paths of old.
The only exception I've seen recently to this is GMod. But let's face it, it's an exception. The mod let's us fool around with stuff in the Source engine. Sure, it has LUA coding for all sorts of stuff, but GMod doesn't have much to it except exposing the capabilities of the Source engine. GMod doesn't have to worry about umpteen different maps, v_models and w_models, all sorts of crap that other modders have to deal with. GMod just takes things already in the Source engine (models, props, weapons) and just lets you fool with it. In terms of what other mods have to deal with, GMod has it pretty easy (although now with the Source code, I wonder what's in store for everyone with GMod10).
In terms of FF, an open beta would probably be a disaster. The dev team has always kept this mindset, and I think its evidently clearer with the onset of TF2. If FF were to release an open beta and have the game very unpolished, people would be automatically turned off and not even wait for it to be cleaned up - and that has a lot to do with TF2. These two games, while being different in design and gameplay, are still going after the same crowd of fortress gamers. If FF releases a buggy piece of crap and then TF2 comes out, then you can say goodbye to the FF fanbase. Out of all the mods out there, I think FF needs to be as polished as it can be before getting shipped out the door because it is going to go head-to-head with TF2.
In summation: RERO does not work today. It's not that mods are trying to be 'professional,' it's that there's just a lot more expectations with all the capabilities the Source engine has given to the mod teams.
Although you have a good history of betas with the style of "Release Early, Release Often" (RERO for short), those days are going to the wayside. You point out examples of Empires, Dystopia, and The Hidden - but I'd argue that these only share minimal popularity. I played all three of these mods when they first came out - and I must say I love the innovative gameplay each of these mods offer. The only thing is, I haven't downloaded an updated version of any of them - why? - because I'd rather wait until they are a lot less buggy and out of beta. I believe many random 'Joe Schmoe' gamers take this approach. Sure, it's fun to try the beta, but trying out something that's pretty buggy kind of turns you off to the whole experience.
The problem with mods today is the fact that modding is not as easy as it used to be. Back in the day, mapping was easier, modeling was easier. Go look at TFC, CS, DOD and look at the maps and models - very simple when you compare them to their Source counterparts. With all these advances, people expect more from the games they play. That means maps become more detailed, models become more 'realistic,' etc. I'm sure if you ask any modder that did stuff from the HL1 engine and ask them to compare it to what they do on Source, I'm sure you'll get an answer that it takes exponentially much more time. I mean, take mapping for instance. The graphical capabilities of Source are astounding - but it takes a lot of effort on the part of the mappers to pull it off and make sure to keep a balance between aesthetics and how much of a performance hit you will cause for the gamer. The same thing goes with models, too.
RERO worked in the days of old because there wasn't THAT (relative to now) much to modding. Problems were much easier to fix. If you had a mapping problem back then, the recompile time would not be anywhere near where it is today. Things have become way more complex and people's expectations have risen - and they keep rising (go search different mod forums and see how many people ask if HDR is going to be implemented in the mod). This is why you see more and more mods nothing taking the paths of old.
The only exception I've seen recently to this is GMod. But let's face it, it's an exception. The mod let's us fool around with stuff in the Source engine. Sure, it has LUA coding for all sorts of stuff, but GMod doesn't have much to it except exposing the capabilities of the Source engine. GMod doesn't have to worry about umpteen different maps, v_models and w_models, all sorts of crap that other modders have to deal with. GMod just takes things already in the Source engine (models, props, weapons) and just lets you fool with it. In terms of what other mods have to deal with, GMod has it pretty easy (although now with the Source code, I wonder what's in store for everyone with GMod10).
In terms of FF, an open beta would probably be a disaster. The dev team has always kept this mindset, and I think its evidently clearer with the onset of TF2. If FF were to release an open beta and have the game very unpolished, people would be automatically turned off and not even wait for it to be cleaned up - and that has a lot to do with TF2. These two games, while being different in design and gameplay, are still going after the same crowd of fortress gamers. If FF releases a buggy piece of crap and then TF2 comes out, then you can say goodbye to the FF fanbase. Out of all the mods out there, I think FF needs to be as polished as it can be before getting shipped out the door because it is going to go head-to-head with TF2.
In summation: RERO does not work today. It's not that mods are trying to be 'professional,' it's that there's just a lot more expectations with all the capabilities the Source engine has given to the mod teams.
C
cpugeek13
Guest
I was gonna quote your whole post, but i figured i'd shorten it down to just this paragraph. Your whole point was that the community has expectations that are too high. In my opinion, the hl2 community is a bunch of spoiled brats because of this. They'll try a new mod that openly says its a beta and never play it again for a year. The irony, is that one of the reasons that these mods release early is to find bugs a lot more easily than with a dozen or so testers. Kudos to the people that understand this and spend time to report bugs instead of just whining about them and abandoning the mod.
You say you try out mod betas and then abandon them. Why even do that? You already know that they will be buggy, so why waste your time? I think if you like the gameplay, you should contribute to the community so that the bugs can be fixed and the mod can become better.
I tried out the betas just to see what the gameplay is going to be like. I keep some tabs with mods that are nearing beta releases and I like to see what they are all about.
The problem with just doing open betas is the fact you expect the community to give you feedback about the bugs and everything. Granted, you will get feedback - but if the game is way too buggy people won't even bother to get the next beta to see what all is fixed. The more buggy your first beta is, the less likely you'll see as many people download the next beta version.
To me, I think the FF team is going about it the smart way. Hell, Nuclear Dawn chose the same path as well. They are starting out with closed betas and making sure they get people who will be dedicated to finding bugs in the game and expect the gameplay to be buggy. Little by little the testing pool will expand until they eventually have a public beta and/or initial release. By the time the public beta rolls around, almost all of your MAJOR bugs are squashed and the gameplay is very close to what your initial release will be.
