French soldiers shooting unarmed demonstrators

[seinfeldrules]

Okay, my understanding of your gripes goes along the lines that you don't want "Europe" sticking their noses in when they're not wanted, correct?

I dont mind if they have opinions about matters such as Iraq, but complaining about our elections and calling Americans stupid for voting for who we choose is taking it a step beyond what you are describing.

People get pissed off at the US's self-appointed "World Police" role and I can understand why. However I can also understand that, after seeing your fellow countrymen put their lives on the line for the government's new adventure, you would be offended when someone decries those actions.

It isnt a self appointed title, you need to understand that. Without the US, who would be looking out for the smaller countries across the globe? We are blamed for invading countries (Iraq), but jeered for not invading others (Sudan). It is a lose- lose proposition. I wouldnt mind if the UN was at our back, I would welcome it. What people need to realize is that it is a failed institution. I'm not saying the US didnt contribute to its decay either. Why doesnt the UN take care of countries like Iraq, Sudan, and North Korea? Why does it take US action for the world to shift its focus on the countries in need? Honestly, it is a role people detest us for, but it is one you cannot live without.

Why not just say, you're pissed off at people who constantly deride your country for no informed reason?

I agree with that. You need to realize, however, that there is a specific group of people on this board that blame the US for everything. Even if the US played a minor, indirect role, it comes back to sit squarely on our doorstep.

 

[Prone]

Okay, I guess after reading this shit I should start thinking ALL americans are idiots. I should just tell my friends in the US (yeah, damn, the ****ing european, even german guy has friends there and has been to the states often enough to know most of the states and even has a greencard, how the **** did that happen) to **** off because I now know that they suck.

Nationalistic stereotypes are the way forward, you really got it.

@gh0st: you said that you were anti-europe, so stick to it.

 

[Sparta]

Man i dont know who to believe.

CptStern is at the extreme end of one spectrum and seinfeldrules/gh0st are at the other end.

Can someone without any obvious bias please, PLEASE show me something that either proves the French shot those protesters or not.

 

[Prone]

From the video I can not see it but I'm just a stupid european and know some french ppl. Has anyone seen the shooting incident (except that the french soldier fires warning shots into the air)?

 

[Gunner]

I think it's hilarious that they left their papers, ID cards, army IDs and everything in the rooms. How dumb is that?... it doesn't make any sense. Besides I didn't know they carried all of their papers with them wherever they went. I thought you weren't allowed personal stuff; why the **** would they need to carry their driving licences around? it's a setup if you ask me.

 

[Gunner]

Ok I saw every video now and it's too late to edit the previous post; apparently those soldiers are just dumbasses, they did indeed shoot into the crowd. Oh and you should have put a WARNING on your post, the last video has some gory shit in it.

 

[el Chi]

I dont mind if they have opinions about matters such as Iraq, but complaining about our elections and calling Americans stupid for voting for who we choose is taking it a step beyond what you are describing.

Fair enough. People get upset about your choice of president because, be it directly or indirectly, affects so many people across the globe. When we've watched whilst George W. Bush has commited so many actions many would perceive as completely and heinously immoral, it's painful to think that for a further four years he will be allowed to carry on, and this time with more vigour.
Particularly for us Brits, the fact that he's in for another term means that Blair's going to be his bitch for another 1-4 years (whoever gets kicked out first...), and it's been pretty tough to watch so far.

It isnt a self appointed title, you need to understand that. Without the US, who would be looking out for the smaller countries across the globe? We are blamed for invading countries (Iraq), but jeered for not invading others (Sudan). It is a lose- lose proposition. .

I had to highlight the first two sentences because this is exactly my point: it's not an opinion, it's a conviction. Like I said, that's fine - I can understand where your coviction comes from (not that I have to agree with it).
If people attack you for invading one country but not another it is to highlight the relative hypocrises of the foreign policy. Of course, if you are going to take on this role of sorting everyone else out, you can't be everywhere. However, when there's clear, subjective motive for invading one country rather than another, that's what the problem is. I wonder what the situation might have been if Sudan had been rich in oil and Iraq devoid?
And to link into the Iraq example specifically - the lies are terrible. If they'd started by saying it was liberation, it might have been easier to swallow, but the world was fed one excuse, then another, then another; most of these turned out to be completely and utterly false.

I wouldnt mind if the UN was at our back, I would welcome it. What people need to realize is that it is a failed institution. I'm not saying the US didnt contribute to its decay either. Why doesnt the UN take care of countries like Iraq, Sudan, and North Korea? Why does it take US action for the world to shift its focus on the countries in need? Honestly, it is a role people detest us for, but it is one you cannot live without

Well, I wouldn't call the UN "failed" although I will allow that it needs a huge kick up the arse and brought into the present, not stuck 60 years old and unchanged.
And yes, UN resolutions to punish countries with embargos, etc. don't really do too much except hurt the populous as opposed to the leadership.
There are UN peace-keeping forces, but their funding isn't great (to my knowledge) and nor are their numbers.
As for your country shiftin attention? Well, it's true that before the war in Iraq, no-one had paid much attention to Iraq for quite a while, but the only reason people suddenly did is because they were being accused of being naughty and that they would be reprimanded for it.
And as for whether Iraq will be better off now - well that's another matter entirely.

I agree with that. You need to realize, however, that there is a specific group of people on this board that blame the US for everything. Even if the US played a minor, indirect role, it comes back to sit squarely on our doorstep

I'm usually one of those people or at least one who sympathises quite heavily. I'm one of the people who gets pissed off at America but I try to be mindful that it is your leaders who are much of the problem.
Except for you retards who voted for him

Man i dont know who to believe.
CptStern is at the extreme end of one spectrum and seinfeldrules/gh0st are at the other end.
Can someone without any obvious bias please, PLEASE show me something that either proves the French shot those protesters or not.

Had you only just noticed!? Welcome to the Politics board. It's only a shame blahblahblah doesn't visit any more.

 

[Gunner]

Blahblahblah is busy playing WoW hehe.

 

[CptStern]

Man i dont know who to believe.

CptStern is at the extreme end of one spectrum and seinfeldrules/gh0st are at the other end.

Can someone without any obvious bias please, PLEASE show me something that either proves the French shot those protesters or not.

I dont think I'm on the extreme end actually I'm closer to "left of centre" than "left". In most of the political debates I'm usually on the liberal side of things rather than the extremist end. An extremist, to me, is an anarchist and I disagree with most of their philosphy and especially their methodologies ...so ya I'm not extreme :E

 

[gh0st]

From the video I can not see it but I'm just a stupid european and know some french ppl. Has anyone seen the shooting incident (except that the french soldier fires warning shots into the air)?

you are stupid. i never said i hate europeans, dont get your panties in a bunch. i may not hate you, but i dont give a damn if you hate me. hating europe and hating europeans is different. i dont like your governments, they are chickenshit.

 

[el Chi]

i dont like your governments, they are chickenshit.

Care to elaborate?

 

[gh0st]

Care to elaborate?

not at the moment, i will in 5 hours when i come home from work.

 

[el Chi]

not at the moment, i will in 5 hours when i come home from work.

I look forward to reading it in 15 hours when I get back from unversity. Tomorrow :|

 

[Shad0hawK]

Ok I saw every video now and it's too late to edit the previous post; apparently those soldiers are just dumbasses, they did indeed shoot into the crowd. Oh and you should have put a WARNING on your post, the last video has some gory shit in it.

sorry about that.

what is interesting is that there is no outrage, it seems some other people's responses just more america bashing...i suppose in their minds that excuses what the french soldiers did or it simply is not an issue unless the US is involved, which displays their real concern for political causes rather than people...and their constantly trying to get the thread off topic.

the french govt says the soldiers only fired in the air, but if you look closely the in the first video at the beginning(and in an uncut sequence) the french do seem to be firing in the air and the crowd gets down then back up yelling at the french when the shooting abates...but one obviously angry french soldier make gestures to the crowd then fires several rounds INTO the crowd, his weapon is leveled and NOT pointing in the air but aimed directly at the crowd. that is when the crowd starts running away from the soldiers...and things get worse from there.

 

[seinfeldrules]

Fair enough. People get upset about your choice of president because, be it directly or indirectly, affects so many people across the globe. When we've watched whilst George W. Bush has commited so many actions many would perceive as completely and heinously immoral, it's painful to think that for a further four years he will be allowed to carry on, and this time with more vigour.
Particularly for us Brits, the fact that he's in for another term means that Blair's going to be his bitch for another 1-4 years (whoever gets kicked out first...), and it's been pretty tough to watch so far.

Every leader effects people of all nationalities. It shouldnt take long to think of ways they do.

I wonder what the situation might have been if Sudan had been rich in oil and Iraq devoid?

It also may have had something to do with the preconceived notion that Iraq had WMD and was an imminent threat, while Sudan did not. We were clearly looking out for the interest of our nation, while also doing a favor to the world.

I'm usually one of those people or at least one who sympathises quite heavily. I'm one of the people who gets pissed off at America but I try to be mindful that it is your leaders who are much of the problem.

See, that is disgraceful. Shifting the blame from everthing onto Americans (and their leaders) wont get us anywhere. That is honestly one of the worst views I have ever seen someone take. People portray this administration as Nazi like all too often, now it is my turn to do this unto you. Remember a time back in the 40's when Nazi's blamed the Jews/Slavs for all the problems in the world... How did that turn out?

America is responsible for- War, everybody's bad economy's, all the pollution, electing the 'wrong' leaders....

What else can we add to the list? You blame us for laying a blind eye to everything in the world...

I dont think I'm on the extreme end actually I'm closer to "left of centre" than "left". In most of the political debates I'm usually on the liberal side of things rather than the extremist end. An extremist, to me, is an anarchist and I disagree with most of their philosphy and especially their methodologies ...so ya I'm not extreme

If you dont think you are, then you are only fooling yourself. It must be enjoyable living in NeverNever land.

 

[Shad0hawK]

See, that is disgraceful. Shifting the blame from everthing onto Americans (and their leaders) wont get us anywhere. That is honestly one of the worst views I have ever seen someone take. People portray this administration as Nazi like all too often, now it is my turn to do this unto you. Remember a time back in the 40's when Nazi's blamed the Jews/Slavs for all the problems in the world... How did that turn out?

i think you touch on something very important there, many of the left leaning people do not realize that politically THEY(especially those here in the states) have more in common with hitler than the conservatives do. they throw the term "nazi" around without realizing it is a contraction for national socialist..the full name of the nazi party being "national socialist german workers party" about the only thing seperating them is the extreme racism of the nazi party, but with a healthy hatred of the jews, that too is dissapating.

this site has a brief history of the nazi party.
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERnazi.htm

 

[Prone]

you are stupid. i never said i hate europeans, dont get your panties in a bunch. i may not hate you, but i dont give a damn if you hate me. hating europe and hating europeans is different. i dont like your governments, they are chickenshit.

right...

shad0hawk, im as conservative as you get. pro america, anti europe, the whole shabang.

I am stupid? Now I feel offended When you know enough about our "chickenshit" governments talk the big talk. Ignorance is bliss as was mentioned before.

And yes, to be honest, I know why I never went to this forum. If you just read this sub forum you get the impression all americans are stupid rednecks with no knowledge about anything. Which is not true of course, too many cool ppl there...

Btw: I'm Pro Europe then, if that is something to be proud of. Actually I'm a Globalist but what does that matter...

 

[gh0st]

right...



I am stupid? Now I feel offended When you know enough about our "chickenshit" governments talk the big talk. Ignorance is bliss as was mentioned before.

And yes, to be honest, I know why I never went to this forum. If you just read this sub forum you get the impression all americans are stupid rednecks with no knowledge about anything. Which is not true of course, too many cool ppl there...

Btw: I'm Pro Europe then, if that is something to be proud of. Actually I'm a Globalist but what does that matter...

yeah. you are stupid. anti europe is different than anti europeean. i've been to europe and i know how good the people are, and how great the history is. that doesnt mean im a globalist, i like my isolation.

When you know enough about our "chickenshit" governments talk the big talk

was that english? wow.

 

[Prone]

Yeah, that was english, about one million times better than your German, French or Italian. As I said, you are nothing but an idiot. This is not the politics forum, this is only for little supremacy wanting, wanna-be powertripping assholes like you and your little cock-sucking friends...

 

[Sparta]

I dont think I'm on the extreme end actually I'm closer to "left of centre" than "left". In most of the political debates I'm usually on the liberal side of things rather than the extremist end. An extremist, to me, is an anarchist and I disagree with most of their philosphy and especially their methodologies ...so ya I'm not extreme :E

Good point. I was wrong then, you're not extreme. If anything though, you're anti-Bush administration. Which is understandable as i'm not a big fan either.

Anyway i still haven't seen any proof of the french soldiers firing on the protesters since my earlier post.

And yes, to be honest, I know why I never went to this forum. If you just read this sub forum you get the impression all americans are stupid rednecks with no knowledge about anything. Which is not true of course, too many cool ppl there...

Couldn't have said it better myself

 

[seinfeldrules]

This is not the politics forum, this is only for little supremacy wanting, wanna-be powertripping assholes like you and your little cock-sucking friends...

Someone is a little hypocritical arent they..

 

[el Chi]

Every leader effects people of all nationalities. It shouldnt take long to think of ways they do.

That's of course true, but none more so than the president of the US.

It also may have had something to do with the preconceived notion that Iraq had WMD and was an imminent threat, while Sudan did not. We were clearly looking out for the interest of our nation, while also doing a favor to the world.

Except for the fact that the evidence was false (not wrong, false) and that at no point had Iraq attempted to attack the US or indeed even threaten to attack the US. And it was very unlikely he had plans to.
If, from the start, the US and UK had been open and said they wanted to go and free the people of Iraq, that would've been fine, but it's the lies that are such a huge problem.

See, that is disgraceful. Shifting the blame from everthing onto Americans (and their leaders) wont get us anywhere. That is honestly one of the worst views I have ever seen someone take. People portray this administration as Nazi like all too often, now it is my turn to do this unto you. Remember a time back in the 40's when Nazi's blamed the Jews/Slavs for all the problems in the world... How did that turn out?

No no no no. You can hardly compare Hitler scape-goating all of Germany's problems onto the Jewish population with having problems with America's foreign policy. I have never seen anyone - not one single person - make any comparisons between the Bush administration and the Nazi party. Ever. That is absolute nonsense and has nothing whatsoever to do with what we're arguing about. Besides, it's not "shifting the blame" - it's being angry at someone for the actions that they have directly committed. That was a shockingly tenuous analogy.

America is responsible for- War, everybody's bad economy's, all the pollution, electing the 'wrong' leaders....

1. America invades Iraq (with the UK) on the basis of false evidence. Bush's policy extends to war with many other nations (Iran's next on the Axis, I believe, isn't it?) so yes I'd say that constitutes being responsible for war.
2. Well, not everybody's bad economy. Although you can certainly blame Bush for your bad economy and the huge debt the country's gone into under his term.
Although if one did want to get international about it, then you could see how US corporations such as Nike, to name but one, use sweatshops which pay people in other countries disgraceful wages (if you can call them wages at all). This doesn't exactly help these third world countries' economies because if they don't allow such heinous concessions then the companies just move onto another country that will.
3. It is a fact that the US generates about 25% of the world's carbon dioxide emissions whilst having only 4% of the world's population: see here. The US has repeatedly pulled out of environmental summits such as Kyoto which were supposed to set up terms for lowering pollution.

What else can we add to the list? You blame us for laying a blind eye to everything in the world...

Please make the separation between yourself and your government. None of these points I have made have been directed at you personally, they're things that the US government has done.

If you dont think you are, then you are only fooling yourself. It must be enjoyable living in NeverNever land.

Stern is not an extremist, it's so obvious. Not once has he promoted any kind of Communist revolution or anything that far down the left side of the spectrum. And that NeverNever Land comment is childish - you can do better than that.

i think you touch on something very important there, many of the left leaning people do not realize that politically THEY(especially those here in the states) have more in common with hitler than the conservatives do.

It's true, Hitler did start a Socialist. So did Mussolini actually, but to say that because of that, those of a Left-wing disposition have something in common with Hitler? Hitler all but abandoned the Socialist aspect of his party very quickly and adopted most of Mussolini's ideas on Fascism. The Nazis were a Right-wing party, even if they did start out somewhere else.
Anyway, what's your point? Are those of the Left-wing now making Hitlerian statements? You've lost me.

 

[seinfeldrules]

Except for the fact that the evidence was false (not wrong, false) and that at no point had Iraq attempted to attack the US or indeed even threaten to attack the US. And it was very unlikely he had plans to.

Saddam was out on TV daily calling for and predicting attacks against the US that would lead to its downfall. It wasnt only the US that believed Saddam had WMD, it was also MI5 and the Russian Intelligence Agency. Those are three of the most highly respected Intel. Agencies in the world. Who is Bush supposed to believe?

I have never seen anyone - not one single person - make any comparisons between the Bush administration and the Nazi party.

Then apparently you have just been ignoring it. It happens on this forum quite often, but you're new so that can probably explain it.

Bush's policy extends to war with many other nations (Iran's next on the Axis, I believe, isn't it?) so yes I'd say that constitutes being responsible for war.

You have to look at the countries that we would be invading, however. Its not like we are invading a random 3rd World country that does no harm to the world. These countries are true threats to world peace, and to their own people.

Please make the separation between yourself and your government. None of these points I have made have been directed at you personally, they're things that the US government has done.

And I helped to elect that government.

2. Well, not everybody's bad economy. Although you can certainly blame Bush for your bad economy and the huge debt the country's gone into under his term.

You could also look at 9/11 and the outrageous defense spending that was required because of it. He also inherited a recession from Bill Clinton, something that is always overlooked. He is also well on his way to breaking even on the job loss category. By the end of his 4th term he is projected to have done so.

3. It is a fact that the US generates about 25% of the world's carbon dioxide emissions whilst having only 4% of the world's population: see here. The US has repeatedly pulled out of environmental summits such as Kyoto which were supposed to set up terms for lowering pollution.

I believe we pulled out because of the extreme cost it would have placed on our already floundering economy, but I dont know all that much about it. The US is also cutting down on pollution internally, so its not like we dont do anything.

Stern is not an extremist, it's so obvious. Not once has he promoted any kind of Communist revolution or anything that far down the left side of the spectrum.

True, but you dont need to declare a revolution over the internet to be referred to as an extremist. He blames the US for pretty much everything that we can be blamed for. If you suggest civil unions (giving equal rights, but not the word marriage) then you are a 'bigot' because you are discriminating against gays. He attacks the US on not having Gov't controlled health care and not having a better welfare system. Sounds damn close to a commie society to me, if the gov't did end up controlling anything.

 

[Spartan]

HOW IN GOD'S NAME ARE BUSH OR SADDAM RELATED TO THE EVENTS ON THE IVORY COAST?

 

[K e r b e r o s]

I saw another video, it does show the French Soldier's shooting protestors.

One girls head was smashed down with scorches, and fragments. Others were shot and bleeding.

However, I dont know what provoked the response -- but, why are the French in the Ivory Coast again?

 

[Eg.]

they colonized it a way long time ago, now they have to clena up the mess beacuse of a treaty

everybody blames america thats why. the reason now is because we are not in africa to stop this (liberia)

 

[gh0st]

However, I dont know what provoked the response -- but, why are the French in the Ivory Coast again?

i think the ivory coast is a proctecotate of France. im sure cptstern will correct me if i'm wrong, i cant be arsed to use google right now.

 

[CptStern]

yes and a former colony

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Ah -- I've been hearing rumors that France deployed troops there to protect their own interests. If indeed a colony was established, I could see the need for deploying troops but, what caused the need?

 

[gh0st]

Ah -- I've been hearing rumors that France deployed troops there to protect their own interests. If indeed a colony was established, I could see the need for deploying troops but, what caused the need?

of course it was to protect their own interests. thats what war and the military boil down to. i do not know the specific reason though.

 

[CptStern]

Ah -- I've been hearing rumors that France deployed troops there to protect their own interests. If indeed a colony was established, I could see the need for deploying troops but, what caused the need?

nope, they've been there for decades ..part of their agreement is military aid

 

[Shad0hawK]

Anyway i still haven't seen any proof of the french soldiers firing on the protesters since my earlier post.

Couldn't have said it better myself

in the first film(in an uncut section BTW), right after the french soldiers fire in the air the crowd ducks, then when the shooting abates abit they jump up taunting the french some more, the camera zooms in on one french soldier getting angry and yelling something back at the protestors and then clearly fired INTO the crowd. his weapon is level, NOT pointing in the air(chirac lied his @$$ off but that is okay he is not american) it is after this the camera cuts to people with bullet wounds that must have appeared there by magic...perhaps some do not see this simply because they do not want to.

oh and the ivorians were running AWAY from the french for hell of it too i suppose...ROFL!! you guys may now go back to your "BLAME AMERICA©" campaign perpetuated by the blissful ignorance that only denial can bring)

*EDIT* just after the second burst of fire the majority of the people can be seen fleeing, unlike the defiant reaction just seconds before(when the bullets were going into the air...and not into bodies), a few in the frontapparnatly not seeing the downed people behind them stay and bodies can be seen lying still in the background.

i cannot wait to see the entertaining excuses from those "just left of center"

 

[Firewall99]

I Get It

Put me on your list.

Lazarus