Gabe Talks Video Cards

[rec]

Our "info from Valve" thread is still building steadily with a heap of new e-mails from Valve appearing. One of the more recently published asked the question "what video card is best for Half-Life 2 visually?". Here's some of what Gabe Newell (Valve Software) had to say...

... we make visual quality/performance trade-off decisions, and that some of the NVIDIA parts are so slow that we turn off a lot of visual effects in order to make the game run decently. The user can always set it to run with all features enabled if they want to. Another example would be avoiding lightmap artifacts in anti-aliasing - we use shader bandwidth on the NVIDIA part (which we don't have to on the ATI part), which is typically the last resource you want to consume on an NVIDIA card since their shader performance is slow relative to the other performance factors (e.g. fillrate).

To read all of Gabe's detailed reply, be sure to check out our "info from Valve" thread!

 

[Mr. Redundant]

thanks (as always) for the heads up Rec

 

[foenatic]

why are they making it seem like nvidia is the wrost card for halflife 2? are u saying my geforce 4 ti 4800 8agp 128 mb, my amd athlon xp 2100+, asus a7v333, ddr 2100 512mb, will run horrible enless they are on the lowest settings? i own halflife, and all, and it is a great game*mods* and it is for all video types, by why is valve becoming Pr***s and just making it a one man video card game? the is bs. sure i will be able to still play what read this...


*NVIDIA parts are so slow that we turn off a lot of visual effects in order to make the game run decently.* quote for the quote

*we use shader bandwidth on the NVIDIA part (which we don't have to on the ATI part), which is typically the last resource you want to consume on an NVIDIA card since their shader performance is slow relative to the other performance factors* quote from quote


i mean look at this one based video crad game!!!!

 

[Brian Damage]

Originally posted by foenatic
why are they making it seem like nvidia is the wrost card for halflife 2? are u saying my geforce 4 ti 4800 8agp 128 mb, my amd athlon xp 2100+, asus a7v333, ddr 2100 512mb, will run horrible enless they are on the lowest settings? i own halflife, and all, and it is a great game*mods* and it is for all video types, by why is valve becoming Pr***s and just making it a one man video card game? the is bs. sure i will be able to still play what read this...


*NVIDIA parts are so slow that we turn off a lot of visual effects in order to make the game run decently.* quote for the quote

*we use shader bandwidth on the NVIDIA part (which we don't have to on the ATI part), which is typically the last resource you want to consume on an NVIDIA card since their shader performance is slow relative to the other performance factors* quote from quote


i mean look at this one based video crad game!!!!

Woah, calm down dude.

Your GF4 Ti will run it fine, it's the FX series they're worried about. The double-datalength registers of the FX series mean that either the game looks crappy but runs okay, or it looks groovy but runs like a no-legged dog.

You'll just have to forego DX9 effects.

 

[The Dark Elf]

Originally posted by Brian Damage
Woah, calm down dude.

Your GF4 Ti will run it fine, it's the FX series they're worried about. The double-datalength registers of the FX series mean that either the game looks crappy but runs okay, or it looks groovy but runs like a no-legged dog.

You'll just have to forego DX9 effects.

what about a AiW 9800SE. Will that do a good job on it? no really.. I want one but not if its rubbish heh

 

[Brian Damage]

Personally, I think that anything 9600 or above will run it just fine.

You should check the tail end of that thread with the 9800SE discussion in it.

 

[Kadayi]

It isn't that Valve have made HL2 with a view to optimising for ATI, it's simply that the Nvidia FX range were poorly concieved cards when it comes to DX9 performance. As I understand it for one reason or another Nvidia weren't engaged in Microsoft's development of Direct X 9 technology unlike ATI, subsequently the FX chips were design on the basis of predictions rather than factual evidence. I'm sure one of our resident tech heads will know more about this situation and the reason it arose.

 

[RandomPING]

So uuuh... Think my 9800 Pro AIW will be able to run it?

I was gonna get an nvidea card until the specs came out on HL2, and i had to get it right away, cause you know, HL2 was comming out in less then a month.
::glares at release dates::

I'm glad valve is setting up the game to take advantage of what the nvidea cards do have to try to optimise its performance.

 

[Arno]

Not much new info, we already knew about the GeForce FX series doing a disappointing job in HL2.
But I like the comment about Doom3 running great on both ATI and NVIDIA hardware. Provided you have a good CPU, of course. My wild guess is that the CPU has to do all the calculations on the shadow volumes. After that's done it probably comes down to simply crunching huge amounts of polygons.

 

[TheNightStalker]

Guys,

Just do what I am doing. The Game might not get released till April 2004. From what I hear there are going to be brand new cards coming out in April anyways. Both are gonna be DX9 by the book. So why not just save up some cash and wait. You're gonna have to wait for Half-Life² anyways, so why not wait for the next batch of cards. Why "RUSH" and get the newest thing when the game isn't even out yet?

Heck, by waiting it out. The prices will drop on the current issue of cards. And if ATi's 9600 and 9800 PRO's/XT's do run the game better, well then you can get the cards at an even cheaper price. Keep the cards you got now, play your CS, DoD, HLDM, etc... Save up the cash and then buy when the card is released. Think about this, the ATi Card comes WITH a FREE Voucher for the game right???? WELL, if you wait, you get the card cheaper, get the game free, and save yourself some money. And on top of that you will have seen some benchmarks telling you what card is the best.

What I am doing is waiting for the game to be released. Then wait about 2 more weeks and see all the benchmarks from TomsHardware, GamersDepot, [H]ard|OCP, etc. AND THEN make my purchase. I will get the card that has the BEST FPS and QUALITY. No one knows for sure which is the 'best' for the game cause the game isn't even out yet. I am not trusting ANY benchmarks from that 'beta E3 Demo' that VALVe released a couple of months back.

Just something you guys might want to ponder and think about before spending your hard earned money. A graphics card is a 'major purchase' for gamers. Yeah there is some sort of 'stolen beta demo' floating around out there. BIG FREAKIN DEAL. From what I've heard it was worthless anyways. Dont judge the graphics card performance on that. Cause remember, it's an OLD BETA and they mean NOTHING. The final product, of the game, is where the video card is going to be best judeged at. So don't short change yourselves and feel like you were 'suckered in' by rushing to get the newest thing when the game isn't even really out to be tested on. All we can go on is their 'word'. I trust no mans word, I trust in the final results, and in this case, I think it would be SAFE for everyone to follow in the same footsteps. We aren't talking $20 here guys, we are talking anywhere between $200 to $500.

Peace,

TheNightStalker

 

[The Dark Elf]

Originally posted by TheNightStalker
Guys,

Just do what I am doing. The Game might not get released till April 2004. From what I hear there are going to be brand new cards coming out in April anyways. Both are gonna be DX9 by the book. So why not just save up some cash and wait. You're gonna have to wait for Half-Life² anyways, so why not wait for the next batch of cards. Why "RUSH" and get the newest thing when the game isn't even out yet?

Heck, by waiting it out. The prices will drop on the current issue of cards. And if ATi's 9600 and 9800 PRO's/XT's do run the game better, well then you can get the cards at an even cheaper price. Keep the cards you got now, play your CS, DoD, HLDM, etc... Save up the cash and then buy when the card is released. Think about this, the ATi Card comes WITH a FREE Voucher for the game right???? WELL, if you wait, you get the card cheaper, get the game free, and save yourself some money. And on top of that you will have seen some benchmarks telling you what card is the best.

What I am doing is waiting for the game to be released. Then wait about 2 more weeks and see all the benchmarks from TomsHardware, GamersDepot, [H]ard|OCP, etc. AND THEN make my purchase. I will get the card that has the BEST FPS and QUALITY. No one knows for sure which is the 'best' for the game cause the game isn't even out yet. I am not trusting ANY benchmarks from that 'beta E3 Demo' that VALVe released a couple of months back.

Good advice, I'm doing a similar thing, getting a new machine now, making do with the card I have or buying a cheap 9800SE then in april getting an XT or something

 

[vasyl]

gg

I haven't spoken to John directly about this, but it's my understanding that NVIDIA did a good job of implementing hardware specifically for Doom3. Of course Doom3 isn't really a DX9 application in the sense that I'm using it in this email - it's more or less a DX7 application. John's design for Doom3 means he does a lot of the rendering work in software rather than in hardware, which, given what he's doing, makes a ton of sense.

No, it doesn't. If "most of Doom 3's rendering is done in software" ... then no PC will ever run it at acceptable frame rates. Ever.

It's called OpenGL, and it's hardware based. They might use DirectSound and other such things, but the rendering is done in OpenGL.

Why doesn't Gabe shut his fat mouth and finish his game already?

 

[The Dark Elf]

Re: gg

Originally posted by vasyl
Why doesn't Gabe shut his fat mouth and finish his game already?

You can bitch all you like about the game being delayed but can you cut out the personal insults please, their uncalled for and just make you look dumb.

Cheers.

 

[Arno]

No, it doesn't. If "most of Doom 3's rendering is done in software" ... then no PC will ever run it at acceptable frame rates. Ever.

You misquoted him. Gabe said a "lot of the rendering", not "most of the rendering".
Perhaps the CPU is doing shadow volume calculations before all the polygons are send to the GPU?

 

[Chris-008]

Ahhhhh ;;;

I have a fairly new NVIDIA Geforce FX 5200 128mg... am I going to have a problem? I've been waiting for HL2 for years and I want to be sure I can run it in all, or at least a lot of, its graphical glory.

Without a .007fps rate...

 

[jokemaster]

I'm just glad my PC came with a 9700 pro

 

[ewilson248]

I think all this Nvidia bashing is a little harsh, sure if you have 300-400 bucks to spend, get a 9800Pro. But I bought my FX5900 for 190 bucks, and spent the other 200 on 1GB PC3200 memory instead! Good gameplay is NOT just affected by one piece in your rig. It seems that some people are forgetting this for the sake of marketing partnerships. So using this logic, as long as I have a 9800Pro I can use my doorstop Celeron 800, and it should scream right? Give me a break.

 

[Kakihara]

Dude this sucks! Ok i guess it's partially... mostly due to my own stupidity. I read reviews of the NVIDIA fx series and they were all shining, and one particular magazine was rating them in relation to Half life 2 and doom 3 (or what the games would need to run well), and due to my rather thin cash flow bought myself the FX5600. Does this mean HL2 is just gonna run shit on my pc now? If so i'll be buying the ATI because I want this game to look as good as it sounds and plays, but not if the difference between the two cards isn;t that great a gap.

 

[Kakihara]

Oh and one more thing, Half Life 2 has been confirmed for X-Box right? As far as I'm aware the Xbox's graphics chip is made my NVIDIA. I'm aware it's not just any old graphics card and all that, but will this mean that owners of the nvidia FX series, will see better graphics come out of their Xbox? or just as bad (when i say bad i mean in regards to the whole quality/performance thing)

 

[<RJMC>]

I just want when valve say they know of much people hav a mid-class computer(not so advance tecnological)they made the game whit very litle requiriments,I heard 700 Mhz(I hav 1800 so is not bad)and a videocard compatible whit DirectX6 (my computer hav Direct X9 I tink because I installed it but I dont know if it works or not,and is 32mb and much games can run whit a 32mb like Halo)but I heard HL2 need a 3D card or something like that(I dont hav it,and I hope no because I cant play Halo for dont hav that card)but Hl2 will must need a NVIDIA card to run? or is just recomendation?(my video card is a S3 prosavage DDR,memory sistem 256mb, memory video 32mb,that cardis good or not?)
I just care my game will be run good(perfect I hope) and I wanna know what other things HL 2 must need
I just hope my computer will be good to play Half Life 2

 

[Brian Damage]

Oh and one more thing, Half Life 2 has been confirmed for X-Box right? As far as I'm aware the Xbox's graphics chip is made my NVIDIA. I'm aware it's not just any old graphics card and all that, but will this mean that owners of the nvidia FX series, will see better graphics come out of their Xbox? or just as bad (when i say bad i mean in regards to the whole quality/performance thing)

The nVidia chip in the XBox isn't a Direct X 9 chip. Direct X 9 performance is where the problem of nVidia's FX series' lies... so I doubt the Xbox chip will have any problems, apart from lower graphics quality...

I just want when valve say they know of much people hav a mid-class computer(not so advance tecnological)they made the game whit very litle requiriments,I heard 700 Mhz(I hav 1800 so is not bad)and a videocard compatible whit DirectX6 (my computer hav Direct X9 I tink because I installed it but I dont know if it works or not,and is 32mb and much games can run whit a 32mb like Halo)but I heard HL2 need a 3D card or something like that(I dont hav it,and I hope no because I cant play Halo for dont hav that card)but Hl2 will must need a NVIDIA card to run? or is just recomendation?(my video card is a S3 prosavage DDR,memory sistem 256mb, memory video 32mb,that cardis good or not?)
I just care my game will be run good(perfect I hope) and I wanna know what other things HL 2 must need
I just hope my computer will be good to play Half Life 2

I'm not sure what the heck you're saying, but I'd reccomend a Radeon 9600 or 9800 based card. An S3 savage will not run HL2 "perfect", or even very well at all.

 

[synth]

The minimum requirements (if I remember correctly) are 700mhz and a TNT2 card (which is basically any card made within the last couple of years).
nVIDIA users won't have quite the graphical quality as the latest ATI cards will, but they'll still run the game fine.
The engine scales the quality based on how good your card is, so there won't be a FPS slowdown.

 

[Paintballer]

I don't see where the poor DX9 and PS2.0 performance is coming from. I have a 2400+, 512mb Crap DDR pc2100, and an FX5900 128mb 256bit memory interface. I am at least on par, if not better, than other people in Halo with PS2.0 forced, when they are running a radeon 9800 pro 256mb and a 2.6ghz p4 (1024x768 all setting maxed). I even turn my sound settings all the way up, while they do not. FarCry runs perfectly smooth on my PC with all settings maxed, at 1024x768, and ps2.0 forced. I get ~5300 3dmarks in 3dmark03. I dunno about everyone else, but I'm not worried at all about the performance of my card in HL2. For 195 bucks you can't beat the price, especially when you are talking about a card with a 256bit memory interface.

 

[Kakihara]

I've been perfectly happy with my FX card so far, with the acception of Deus Ex2 it's run perfectly and looked amazing on every game I've played. I know this is a little off subject but how come Doom 3 apparently runs into no problem with FX when it still uses DX9? I know thas probably a very simple question but i need to learn these things from somewhere

 

[Brian Damage]

Doom3 is an OpenGL based game. Not DX9. The specifications are similar, but the implementation is different.

 

[Kakihara]

Ah right, cheers for clearing that up