I have the Powah!!!

[Kadayi]

Continued from:-

http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?t=149197

Or maybe you should actually try reading what people put before you try to sit in almighty judgement. You would have had far more of a hissy fit if I had only deleted selected posts, choosing which ones were worthy of staying and which had to be deleted.
I wasn't trying to make anything "go away", the discussion was horribly derailed and thread was a train wreck. The underlying issues were not being resolved in the slightest, it was just a constant back-and-forth between the same small group of people.
So, as I quite clearly stated in my previous post, I deleted them all to give the thread a fresh start. You obviously either decided to ignore that or disbelieve it, preferring instead to suggest that I did it for reasons of power abuse.
Believe what you want - I don't have to justify my actions to you, or anyone else. If you think I'm going "fully Dark Elf" then you can live quite happily in that delusion. I care not one jot.

Also, I find your "I have the powah!!!" insinuation particularly insulting. So if that was your intention, congratulations.

How can I read what's been deleted? Oh that's right I can't, I have to take it as a given that a guy who loves to tell us repeatedly that he doesn't give a shit about what anyone else thinks (great attitude to life that) says so. Colour me bad for being skeptical on that particular front. I guess it comes from calling it as I see it, and what I see is an ugly attitude to other peoples opinions, which I don't think is remotely a positive one to bring to what is supposed to be a game discussion forum at the end of the day. Sure I can understand a degree of authoritarianism goes with the role of being a moderator, but I don't think it should creep over into general posts like some lazy rubber stamping exercise of 'I'm right and your not' one liners. I mean in all honesty when was the last time you (and a few others tbh) actually discussed a mod you or anyone you know wasn't involved in, in a positive frame? Generally all I see is a lot of barely risible poo-pooing, and that seems to be an endemic stance, which is ****ing pity tbh for a forum that once had the potential to move in quite a positive fashion.

As for editing the thread I'd be more in favour of a select edit, than a wholesale because it would at least be indicative of someone actually caring to read the posts and keeping the choice ones. There were plenty of posts that weren't derailing the thread. Do those posters opinions mean so little that they can be tossed away so lightly? If you don't give respect, why do you expect to receive it?

Pi did the right thing in deleting all the posts, case closed.

Well I disagree in that respect, and frankly closing the thread when it's clear I'm about to post a response in it is pretty lame. Shame on you.

 

[Nomad]

Holy shit. Just let it go, seriously.

 

[Eejit]

I agree with the delete, having a thread that ****ed up being linked to from a front page news story is just embarassing.

 

[Kadayi]

I've invested a lot of time into this forum and I don't like to see it slide into a dictatorship I'm afraid.

I agree with the delete, having a thread that ****ed up being linked to from a front page news story is just embarassing.

Embarrassing maybe, but ultimately is that not a reflection of the attitude of the posters at the end of the day? If people aren't going to check themselves whose to blame, them or the thread?

 

[Evo]

It was better to start afresh on a thread which had degenerated into a total cluster-****. If people had just accepted what others had been saying then nothing would've had to happen, rather some people took offence that people criticised a mod.

I took the chance in posting the news as it had been submitted and there was a small discussion happening about why there wasn't much mod news. When I see shit like that happening though, can you blame me for not bothering?

 

[Xendance]

Who cares?

 

[Naph]

Let.







it.








Go.


Before Pi comes back!

 

[Nomad]

Kadayi, you're gonna get the gas.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Continued from:-

http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?t=149197



How can I read what's been deleted? Oh that's right I can't, I have to take it as a given that a guy who loves to tell us repeatedly that he doesn't give a shit about what anyone else thinks (great attitude to life that) says so. Colour me bad for being skeptical on that particular front. I guess it comes from calling it as I see it, and what I see is an ugly attitude to other peoples opinions, which I don't think is remotely a positive one to bring to what is supposed to be a game discussion forum at the end of the day.

Sorry bucko, you're going to have to take my word for it. You don't like it, and you're damn right I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. It's funny how a relatively common practice like deleting posts that derail a thread only bothers you today, and not on all the other numerous occasions we've done it. I guess they just didn't trigger your censorship delusions. Also, in case it escaped your attention, I even deleted my own posts. Rather than just close the thread (which I suspect you also would have complained about), I decided to start it again from scratch. Making you, personally, happy wasn't one of my overriding concerns. I was more interested in giving the specific topic (you know, the Black Mesa mod) a chance at an actual discussion, which isn't what was happening in the previous attempt.

Sure I can understand a degree of authoritarianism goes with the role of being a moderator, but I don't think it should creep over into general posts like some lazy rubber stamping exercise of 'I'm right and your not' one liners. I mean in all honesty when was the last time you (and a few others tbh) actually discussed a mod you or anyone you know wasn't involved in, in a positive frame? Generally all I see is a lot of barely risible poo-pooing, and that seems to be an endemic stance, which is ****ing pity tbh for a forum that once had the potential to move in quite a positive fashion.

Right, this entire section can be thrown away because, once again, you have completely failed to grasp that I (and I've bolded this for extra super clarity!) DID NOT SAY ANYTHING NEGATIVE ABOUT BLACK MESA. As for the other users, they can say what they like (within reason, obviously). After all, this is a discussion forum!
Also, how I write my posts is none of your concern whatsoever. One thing that you're right about, though, is that I don't discuss other mods in a positive frame. On the other hand, nor do I discuss them in a negative frame. This is generally because I don't discuss them at all. Or is that wrong of me as well? Of course, if you can show me where I have discussed other mods in a negative way, feel free to show me.

As for editing the thread I'd be more in favour of a select edit, than a wholesale because it would at least be indicative of someone actually caring to read the posts and keeping the choice ones. There were plenty of posts that weren't derailing the thread. Do those posters opinions mean so little that they can be tossed away so lightly? If you don't give respect, why do you expect to receive it?

I've already explained this one. It's quite plain that you don't trust my opinion, so if I'd deleted selected posts, I'm sure you'd be here, yapping away in complaint about the ones that you can't see and don't know about. Again, for completeness, I deleted all the posts. Democratically and fairly! /me salutes
As for respect, I give it where I feel it's due. I don't go doling out individual Pi Respect Points. I administrate the forums as I see fit. Some people don't like parts of that. On the whole, however, it seems to work. You may disagree. I don't care.

Well I disagree in that respect, and frankly closing the thread when it's clear I'm about to post a response in it is pretty lame. Shame on you.

Actually, Evo didn't close the thread. I did. It was childish, and petty. And very, very amusing. On the other hand, your rant didn't belong in a thread about Black Mesa, so I would have had to have moved it anyway.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

I've invested a lot of time into this forum and I don't like to see it slide into a dictatorship I'm afraid.

Now this is chortle-worthy. It really is. How many years have I been effectively running the moderation on these forums? And only now is it beginning the slide into dictatorship? I obviously haven't been trying hard enough.

And yeah, I double-posted. Because I can. I have the powah!!!

 

[Xendance]

lol piowned.

 

[Kadayi]

It was better to start afresh on a thread which had degenerated into a total cluster-****. If people had just accepted what others had been saying then nothing would've had to happen, rather some people took offence that people criticised a mod.

I took the chance in posting the news as it had been submitted and there was a small discussion happening about why there wasn't much mod news. When I see shit like that happening though, can you blame me for not bothering?

Criticism is fine if there is some solid rationale to it, but unfortunately that does seem to be a bridge too far for some people here to cross, and that's getting in the way of this forum elevating itself beyond individual self interest.

That you talk about posting the news as a chance is pretty indicative of you already knowing the kind of reception the news was likely to get, and that in itself is not a good thing. I'd hate to think that HL2.net is going the way of NMA when it comes to response predictability.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Even you can't change the user mindset. Sorry. Black Mesa has, and always will be, a polarising topic. With all your time invested in these forums, you should have known that already.

 

[simonjedi]

oh noes INTERNET DRAMA

 

[Eejit]

Embarrassing maybe, but ultimately is that not a reflection of the attitude of the posters at the end of the day? If people aren't going to check themselves whose to blame, them or the thread?

What's that got to do with it?

It was horribly embarassing. It's gone. Good.

 

[Nomad]

I can't comment on the thread because there is no specific topic other than Kadayi and Pi repeatedly smashing each other over the head with long winded posts. I mean, everyone else is just on the sidelines booing and cheering at their favourite posters. Thread lock plz.

 

[Kamikazie]

Tomorrow on Days of our Lives...

 

[Druckles]

extra super clarity!

There should be a comma there.

oh noes INTERNET DRAMA

This is not internet drama. This is a dispute.

 

[Kadayi]

Even you can't change the user mindset. Sorry. Black Mesa has, and always will be, a polarising topic. With all your time invested in these forums, you should have known that already.

A Black guy just got elected to be president of the United States, and your telling me that peoples attitudes can't and won't ever be changed? Somehow that statement says more about you than it does about the wider reality I'm afraid Pi.

Changing peoples perceptions doesn't require superhuman effort it simply requires a positive and engendering environment in the first place. Do you honestly think that constantly patronising people achieves that? I mean it's clear if I whip out a :dozey:, you sure as hell don't like it when it's aimed at something you've said do you? I can do patronising pretty good when I choose to, but I tend to go it on the topic under discussion, not the person when I do.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

A Black guy just got elected to be president of the United States, and your telling me that peoples attitudes can't and won't ever be changed? Somehow that statement says more about you than it does about the wider reality I'm afraid Pi.

Changing peoples perceptions doesn't require superhuman effort it simply requires a positive and engendering environment in the first place. Do you honestly think that constantly patronising people achieves that? I mean it's clear if I whip out a :dozey:, you sure as hell don't like it when it's aimed at you've said do you? I can do patronising pretty good when I choose to, but I tend to go it on the topic under discussion, not the person when I do.

Are you really serious? Really?

Barack Obama got elected, therefore you can change the mindset of the users here?

I am beyond flabbergasted, seriously. Have you ever considered that perhaps everyone here is happy with their mindsets? That they're not just waiting in their little boxes for you to open their eyes? I mean, I'm sorry that everyone here doesn't meet your intellectual standards, I really am.
However, I particularly like your assertion that it's down to the forum environment. Sure, everyone here signed up all bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, waiting for enlightement. But damn, that oppressive Pi regime of constant patronisation (have you even seen your own posts btw?) has completely reduced them to morons!

Well done you for insulting everyone on the forums. Even I haven't managed that one yet, I don't think.

 

[Druckles]

A Black guy just got elected to be president of the United States, and your telling me that peoples attitudes can't and won't ever be changed? Somehow that statement says more about you than it does about the wider reality I'm afraid Pi.

You do know why change like that comes about, don't you? You realise why racism, sexism and other forms of discrimination are finally walking out the door? It's because there are other people behind the change. People willing to stand up and tell everyone else they're wrong. Unfortunately for mankind, everyone only ever thinks about themselves. Generally they can never be arsed with change, and most of the time the vast majority is happy with the way things are. However, thanks to the same selfishness, people feel that maybe they'd get in the history books or some such for aiding such change, which while seen as morally right by everyone, involves too much change for them to be arsed doing anything. That's real life.

This is the Internet. Things don't happen like that on here. Great change in the real world that you're talking about involves generations of work. This generation is far from eliminating racism and it's going to be another couple before we can even think we've gotten anywhere. The lifetime of a mod is not comparable. People's opinions of it aren't going to change unless it itself changes, which after so many years we can see isn't going to happen anytime soon. Similarly the anonymity on the Internet means everyone expresses their views, which usually have some form of prejudice in. Thus, because of the missing need to repress oneself for what's 'morally right' in the eyes of others, change simply doesn't happen. So don't bother trying to compare the 'real world' with the Internet, because the two simply don't compare.

 

[Kadayi]

Are you really serious? Really?.

You stated a position that doesn't stand up under actual scrutiny, so yes I'am being serious. That you lack the good grace to concede upon it is unfortunately your burden to carry. I'm sorry that I can't help you with that.

@Druckles

Laziness hardly seems a rationale for acceptance.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

You stated a position that doesn't stand up under actual scrutiny, so yes I'am being serious. That you lack the good grace to concede upon it is unfortunately your burden to carry. I'm sorry that I can't help you with that.

Oh, Kadayi. You really brighten my afternoon.

My position absolutely does stand up to scrutiny. You cannot change the entire mindset of this forum's users. The blustering remainder of your sentiment is therefore pointless.

Of course, feel free to prove me wrong. Any time you like.
I particularly look forward to your efforts to bring the forum users round to the Kadayi Way.


quick edit: Also, before you try and argue semantics by "user mindset", I did indeed mean the entire mindset of the forum's users.

 

[Kadayi]

The thing is Pi, I'm not posting about me doing this as you seem to be fixated upon, I'm posting about you as a moderator setting a precedent for others to follow upon. That you 'can't' 'won't' 'aren't' interested in engendering actual constructive discussion isn't something I can personally address at the end of the day tbh.

 

[Barnz]

I'd hate to think that HL2.net is going the way of NMA when it comes to response predictability.

No, just no.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

The thing is Pi, I'm not posting about me doing this as you seem to be fixated upon, I'm posting about you as a moderator setting a precedent for others to follow upon. That you 'can't' 'won't' 'aren't' interested in engendering actual constructive discussion isn't something I can personally address at the end of the day tbh.

I'm very happy for you? I posted that you can't change the user mindset. If you wanted to talk about something else, you should have indicated that more clearly

I'm not trying to change anyone's mindsets, because they are who they choose to be already. I'm sure they'll all be gratified to know that you think they're that impressionable, though.

Also, nice ninja edit.

Constructive discussion? Here we go again. Point out to me where I have negatively discussed a mod. If you are not able to do that, then I would suggest not bringing it up again. Lack of discussion != negative discussion.
If some people want to slate a mod, then they are permitted to. If some people want to praise it, so are they. As long as it's within the general bounds of the forum rules, they are equally entitled to those opinions, whether you like it or not. I'm not going to pop up and go "hey kids, be constructive!" - if someone thinks the maps look bland (to take an example), then they can damn well say just that. Just because it doesn't fill your criticism criteria does not make it, the user, the forums, or the moderation wrong.

 

[Edcrab]

Is this some running joke between you and Pi that I’m too stupid to recognise? The whole situation is so ludicrous that I feel I’m missing out on something very important. Maybe it’s because I haven’t been around enough.

So there’s a mod that incites discussion and invites extreme opinions- nothing new there. A train wreck of a thread was created- definitely nothing new there.

This forum isn’t here to try and change the world. It doesn’t look at the internet, crack its knuckles, and say “It is my duty to affect the mindsets of each and every contributor and viewer.”. Quite the opposite. The policy in most forums comes down to “let them vent, let them whine, let them be sycophants if they want, but kill the thread off when it hits critical mass”. Forums want discussion, but they don’t want increasingly vehement flame wars. This is not a phenomenon unique to this community- I know dozens of moderators and I was one myself.

Sometimes a thread does not need salvaged, it needs renewed. It needs nuked from orbit and re-established elsewhere. Shouting “BIAS!!” when you witness standard moderation practise is… not very logical.

The thread was a shit heap. And yet people object to not being able to add to the shit heap? How dare the mods clean up that shit heap before I could add to the shit on it? What about the people who added shit to the heap, what of their rights, you monster? What if they were really attached to that shit?

To end this scatological analogy: it was shit, so I’m amazed anyone cares about its fate. Forumers are used to their posts vanishing because of the dumbassity of a disruptive minority- sometimes it’s much better to clear it all out and let people start anew, without inflammatory posts sitting on the page count and begging someone to read them, quote them, and bring it all back up for a fresh round of bitchin’. This isn’t new. Unless I’ve lurked at some poorly selected times, this has been happening in this forum since day one. The Age of Pre-Pimoderation.

Well, okay. Month one. I’m not that old school.

This is a gaming forum, reactionary views are nothing new. If you really think it’s feasible to wrestle the internet to the ground and brutalise it until all trace of extremism and fanboyism and painful cynicism vanishes… well, I applaud your optimism but lambast your realism.

To be frank I have no idea why the mods aren’t just locking this thread. If this is a joke, it’s all too familiar.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Sorry Ed. It's still open because I'm enjoying myself too much to close it. If that's wrong, I don't want to be right!

 

[Druckles]

I'm sorry that I can't help you with that.

Oh look, patronising much? Hypocritical much? All points invalid much?

Edit: Oh hey, edcrab.

 

[Kadayi]

I'm not trying to change anyone's mindsets, because they are who they choose to be already. I'm sure they'll all be gratified to know that you think they're that impressionable, though.

So what your saying is constructive debate is a bad thing and not to be encouraged on a discussion forum lest peoples opinions might be effected? That people shouldn't enthuse about a game, a film, song or piece of Art lest it change another persons opinion? Are you being serious?

 

[Sheepo]

Transcript of events:

1) Media about BM:S is posted
2) Several people post their opinions, ranging from excitement to moderate dislike (specifically about bland maps)
3) Several people express their outrage at the nonexistent hatred directed to such an amazing and free mod
4) The moderate dislikers defend their opinion and express their confusion towards their illogical posts
5) This back and forth argument goes on and the fools have more people who have even less idea of what they're talking about join in and obviously don't even read the "hater's" posts
6) Pi deleted every single post so we could actually discuss the news story
7) This thread

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

So what your saying is constructive debate is a bad thing and not to be encouraged on a discussion forum lest peoples opinions might be effected? That people shouldn't enthuse about a game, a film, song or piece of Art lest it change another persons opinion? Are you being serious?

No, I didn't say that at all. Nice try, though!

 

[Druckles]

So what your saying is constructive debate is a bad thing and not to be encouraged on a discussion forum lest peoples opinions might be effected? That people shouldn't enthuse about a game, a film, song or piece of Art lest it change another persons opinion? Are you being serious?

I don't see how your quote and your post relate.

Also:

what you're saying

Careful.

 

[Laivasse]

...

Wow, haven't seen you post in a while.

 

[Edcrab]

The big screaming issue to me is that this soon-to-be dictatorship is allowing a thread such as this to survive. Way to fail at tyranny, mods.

And by the way, not seeking to change someone's mindset does not exclude the possibility of discussion or debate. We can all respect differing tastes and preferences without necessarily agreeing with them, but to shout people down and demand that they renounce their position is naive and, frankly, offensive.

Otherwise the Politics forum would be a pointless hotbed of whining and arguments because nobody would ever change their position.

...wait...


Also yes I'm less of a lurker now. Hello everyone.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

From what I've attempted to glean from Kadayi's rants, I think he's expecting the moderators to be like conversational referees, actively encouraging and engendering specific debate and constructive criticism in (all?) threads. I think he's on the wrong forum, personally.

 

[Edcrab]

Ohh, right, that's more like the Kadayi I knew. Out of context it all sounded crazy and a little aggressive.

But I can't help agreeing that trying to engineer constructive discussion on something as subjective as a game or someone's experiences within it, or in this case a user-made project attached to a thread that had recently overfilled with rambling angst, would be a misplaced effort.

 

[Kadayi]

And by the way, not seeking to change someone's mindset does not exclude the possibility of discussion or debate. We can all respect differing tastes and preferences without necessarily agreeing with them, but to shout people down and demand that they renounce their position is naive and, frankly, offensive.

Agreed. Most people struggle to get over that ego hurdle, but it should be encouraged.

]From what I've attempted to glean from Kadayi's rants, I think he's expecting the moderators to be like conversational referees, actively encouraging and engendering specific debate and constructive criticism in (all?) threads.

Not to all, but I do believe that as a moderator you hold a certain responsibility to the site when you post that you do so in a positive, constructive fashion. You are the active face of the forum whether you like it or not, and how you conduct yourself does reflect upon the site and the communities responses and attitude accordingly. I don't see what's so objectionable about that, it's a positive position to be in.

 

[lefty]

I think y'all ungrateful pricks better be glad I'm not a moderator.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

I don't see anyone objecting?

The only thing I particularly object to is people making things up about me (like the aforementioned non-existent mod-slating thing)

I think that's enough feedback for one day.