Mission Accomplished?

[kmack]

well its been a while since bush sat grinning like a moron and giggling like an idiot under a Mission Accomplished banner and kaboom just another attack in the past two weeks, which have been some of the most violent in the war, and at least in the past few months. The insurgency is a strong as ever (not defeatist rubbish, just facts, they are attacking more often and more deadly than ever before, if you have facts that prove otherwise feel free to call me a defeatist). Six Americans were among the 11 killed. One survivor was then forced to stand up and talk to a camera before being shot

The Islamic Army in Iraq said in its Internet statement the crew member was killed to "avenge Muslims killed in cold blood in Falluja's mosques … in front of the eyes of the world and on television screens without anyone protesting."

After a supposed victory with the Iraqi Elections the insurgency seemed to taper down , but now it is back with a vengeance:

Thursday's attack came amid a rebound in guerrilla activity in the past two weeks, with more than 20 car bombings in Baghdad and an increase in ambushes, shootings and assassinations.

This as more and more delays are being faced by the new government

"The talks were going well, but the Shi'ites offered Allawi just two ministries, not the four that he wants, and he rejected the offer," one source said. "There was also continued disagreement over what ministries the Sunnis should get. The question really is whether the Shi'ites want to create a government of national unity, or just a Shi'ite-Kurd government," he said.

We cannot even control an airport road

On Thursday, a roadside bomb hit a convoy carrying foreign security contractors on the road to Baghdad's airport, killing two people. Three foreign contractors — an American, an Australian and a Canadian — were killed on the same stretch of road on Wednesday, their employer confirmed on Thursday. And two U.S. soldiers were killed in the same vicinity on Tuesday.

The inability to secure the airport road, an essential link for military and civilian supplies, has come to symbolise the difficulty U.S. forces face in tackling the insurgency.
So far we've at least kept it safe from Italian allies

Let's not forget the $300+ BILLION spent SO FAR on this war (one of the most unpopular home and abroad of all time)

oh ya, and the stock market is going ape sh*t and oil and gas prices are dancing around record levels. Im glad that the mission was accomplished, who knows where we'd be now if it wasnt :dozey:

 

[satch919]

I don't even know how to respond to this anymore. We've gone over this stuff time and time again.

Our continued involvement over there puts our own stupidity on the global stage. We've made some huge mistakes in front of many nations. Its time to bite the bullet, admit our mistakes, and get the hell out of there. Our military resources would be better off home or in Afghanistan looking for bin Laden.

I saw the execution video of a civilian pilot yesterday shot down out of Iraqi skies. Its sad to see civilians in that situation and I'm tired of seeing innocent people beheaded or shot simply because they were there at the wrong place and at the wrong time. Those who've been executed in these horrific ways would still be alive had we been smarter about the reasons for going to war.

There's nothing we can do now. I fear that this whole ugly situation is going to just have to run its terrible course.

 

[KoreBolteR]

:upstare: kmack, this has been discussed about a million times

you can critisize the new government all you want, you aint gonna change it back to the old tyrranic regime or change it to a terror corrupt power.

theres critics for everything tho. at the end of all this, iraq will be a free nation again.

 

[kmack]

:upstare: kmack, this has been discussed about a million times

you can critisize the new government all you want, you aint gonna change it back to the old tyrranic regime or change it to a terror corrupt power.

theres critics for everything tho. at the end of all this, iraq will be a free nation again.

ahhh, justifying $300+ billion dollars, almost 2000 Dead US soldiers, lies about WMDS, high oil prices, lost freedoms, Thousands more dead innocent Iraqis, with a hypothetical future scenario. Real good job, this has been discussed a million times? if all the discussions are like this sh*t then I think you can just stuff your opinion and not post here, and let anyone who wants to discuss it DISCUSS it, not make up a fantasy future world.

 

[Calanen]

Kmack just points to anybody dying in Iraq and says 'See we are losing!' because its his agenda. Its a war - people die in wars, on both sides. Im tired of all the leftwing loons expecting wars to be fought where no one gets killed.

We are going to lose people and so are they. But we will win provided all the loud mouths let the troops do their jobs and dont tie their hands to their balls like in Vietnam.

You point to an airport road and say 'we cant even control an airport road.' Which is crap - I could wait for you on the way to work and kill you on the freeway, does that mean that your country has lost control of the freeways?

Your agenda is to seize on any piece of news, and say 'Proof we are losing' when all the news shows is that there are casualites on both sides. But the country is in the hands of an Iraqi government, only 3 of the 18 provinces have any insurgency problem, way more terrorists have died and been captured than american troops - and yet we are losing according to you. And the people don't support the terrorists, because they voted when they were told not to.

Let me say it again THE TERRORISTS TOLD THEM NOT TO VOTE OR THEY WOULD DIE AND 8 MILLION PEOPLE RISKED DEATH TO VOTE.

The only place we are losing is in your own mind Kmack.

 

[Ennui]

We all need to stop arguing about this. Everyone has their own opinon and we're not going to change that by spouting the exact kind of rhetoric that they hate and ignore.

All these discussions do anymore is create emnity between users.

 

[CptStern]

only a casual observer would think Iraq would become a "free nation" any time soon ..people who've actually researched Iraq's background know better. Hey Korebolter look up 1953 Mohammad Mosaddeq and the coup in Iran that overthrew his democratically elected government

 

[Calanen]

only a casual observer would think Iraq would become a "free nation" any time soon

Just like Germany could never become a democracy after WW2 and neither could Japan - that would NEVER work.

 

[CptStern]

Kmack just points to anybody dying in Iraq and says 'See we are losing!' because its his agenda. Its a war - people die in wars, on both sides. Im tired of all the leftwing loons expecting wars to be fought where no one gets killed.

We are going to lose people and so are they. But we will win provided all the loud mouths let the troops do their jobs and dont tie their hands to their balls like in Vietnam.

You point to an airport road and say 'we cant even control an airport road.' Which is crap - I could wait for you on the way to work and kill you on the freeway, does that mean that your country has lost control of the freeways?

Your agenda is to seize on any piece of news, and say 'Proof we are losing' when all the news shows is that there are casualites on both sides. But the country is in the hands of an Iraqi government, only 3 of the 18 provinces have any insurgency problem, way more terrorists have died and been captured than american troops - and yet we are losing according to you. And the people don't support the terrorists, because they voted when they were told not to.

Let me say it again THE TERRORISTS TOLD THEM NOT TO VOTE OR THEY WOULD DIE AND 8 MILLION PEOPLE RISKED DEATH TO VOTE.

The only place we are losing is in your own mind Kmack.

funny how you seem to forget that the road to "mission accomplished" was paved with the deaths of over a million iraqis ...no thanks to western "benevolence"

 

[CptStern]

Just like Germany could never become a democracy after WW2 and neither could Japan - that would NEVER work.

nope ..just like Niceragua, Iran, Afghanistan, Panama, El Salvador, Congo, Bolivia, Honduras, Haiti etc etc etc etc ...one example does NOT make a precendent ..it's an exception not the rule


since you responded Calanen, maybe you'd like to tackle why the US overthrew a democratically elected leader and installed a brutal shah that was responsible for the deaths of 10's of thousands of innocents. Maybe you'd like to explain why the CIA trained the secret gestapo like secret police SAVAK to control Irans people?

 

[Razor]

Kmack, this isn't Iraqi freedom fighters attacking the Iraqi people and the Coalition, it's Al Quada and other terrorist organisations. And pulling the troops out now would be an absolutely stupid thing to do, if troops were to be withdrawn now, Iraq would collapse into a civil war, and anyway, if troops would be pulled out now, all the anti-war protestors would suddenly turn round and start saying "look at how Bush, Blair and the other nations abandoned Iraq in their time of need". But Kmack, stop looking at a small area in and around Baghdad, i was watching a program late lastnight on British television about Basra and the British controlled areas of Iraq and it definately isn't as bad. Their are regular patrols consisting of both British and Iraqi forces, new Iraqi policeman are getting trained up, etc.

 

[Calanen]

it's an exception not the rule

Its two exceptions, and two examples, and the 'rule' seems to be just whatever you say it is.

So you want more examples - how about just about all of Eastern Europe going from Communism to democracy? How many countries is that?

The fact that some other democratic places fell over does not mean that Iraq will each place had its own unique circumstances, and its simplistic in the extreme to compare Panama to Iraq or any other country.

 

[ComradeBadger]

nope ..just like Niceragua, Iran, Afghanistan, Panama, El Salvador, Congo, Bolivia, Honduras, Haiti etc etc etc etc ...one example does NOT make a precendent ..it's an exception not the rule


since you responded Calanen, maybe you'd like to tackle why the US overthrew a democratically elected leader and installed a brutal shah that was responsible for the deaths of 10's of thousands of innocents. Maybe you'd like to explain why the CIA trained the secret gestapo like secret police SAVAK to control Irans people?

US foreign policy changes with each president.

You can't pin the past on the current president.

 

[CptStern]

I'm not pinning it on bush, I'm just showing how foreign policy is unchanged regardless of who's in office (sure the language and the tone may change but the end result is still the same) ..some of the worst cia interventions happened during kennedy's watch

 

[GiaOmerta]

I see alot of you complaining. Bashing Bush. Bashing Blair. Bashing in general. What the hell would you do differently?

some of the worst cia interventions happened during kennedy's watch

That's why he is dead.

 

[kmack]

Just like Germany could never become a democracy after WW2 and neither could Japan - that would NEVER work.

Or Cuba! o wait...

 

[CptStern]

Its two exceptions, and two examples, and the 'rule' seems to be just whatever you say it is.

ya because the rest of the allies had nothing to do with ..it was exclusively in american hands :upstare:

So you want more examples - how about just about all of Eastern Europe going from Communism to democracy? How many countries is that?

I want sources that the US actively helped thiose countries ...should we start with afghanistan?

The fact that some other democratic places fell over does not mean that Iraq will each place had its own unique circumstances, and its simplistic in the extreme to compare Panama to Iraq or any other country.

FELL OVER!?! are you purposefully ignoring facts? they didnt FALL over, they were pushed, shoved, stepped on and stomped into a fascist tyrannical regime. You ignore the death squads trained by the cia, you ignore the overthrowing of DEMOCRATIC governemnts only to be replaced with a brutal dictatorship ...sorry but the US' track record speaks for itself ...if Iraq "works" then it's the exception..so the likelihood is that my kid's kids will be talking about the iraqi problems when they reach of age

 

[kmack]

I still have yet to hear an argument that justifies 300 Billion dollars, 2000 american lives, thousands of innocent iraqi lives etc.

Or an argument to justify bush standing on an aircraft carrier grinning like a moron under a mission accomplished banner.

Oh, and I m watching CNN apparently another US soldier was killed today by a roadside bomb. Tell his mother and father that the war is worth it, then tell 4000 other parents. The human toll alone makes this war not worth it.

Plus the very thing people are so good at showing in these forums, the country is divided on the war with more people disapporoving. The world on the other hand is not divided, the majority doesnt approve.

Thankfully, bush, and this foolish war (whenever it is over...if ever go ahead, prove to me it will end :dozey: ) will go down not only in american history but world history as well as a great shame.

 

[KoreBolteR]

only a casual observer would think Iraq would become a "free nation" any time soon ..people who've actually researched Iraq's background know better. Hey Korebolter look up 1953 Mohammad Mosaddeq and the coup in Iran that overthrew his democratically elected government

1953 was 52 years ago stern, how can you compare the world of 1953 to today?
i just read an article on it written by a person who dearly hated americans. i could see the blatent bias in his report. "i could see the greed-filled eyes of the americans glazing over at iran". ..hes very good at swaying peoples minds. as are alot of anti american writers.

 

[kmack]

1953 was 52 years ago stern, how can you compare the world of 1953 to today?

half of the US was so paranoid about an invisible threat that they entered a long drawn out, and utterly foolish and futile war, costing many lives on many fronts.

 

[CptStern]

i just read an article on it written by a person who dearly hated americans. i could see the blatent bias in his report. "i could see the greed-filled eyes of the americans glazing over at iran". ..hes very good at swaying peoples minds. as are alot of anti american writers.

you should try to be more selective in your sources

here's a good source ...from the horse's mouth no less. It includes some actual CIA classified documents from that era

 

[Razor]

I still have yet to hear an argument that justifies 300 Billion dollars, 2000 american lives, thousands of innocent iraqi lives etc.

Or an argument to justify bush standing on an aircraft carrier grinning like a moron under a mission accomplished banner.

Oh, and I m watching CNN apparently another US soldier was killed today by a roadside bomb. Tell his mother and father that the war is worth it, then tell 4000 other parents. The human toll alone makes this war not worth it.

Plus the very thing people are so good at showing in these forums, the country is divided on the war with more people disapporoving. The world on the other hand is not divided, the majority doesnt approve.

Thankfully, bush, and this foolish war (whenever it is over...if ever go ahead, prove to me it will end :dozey: ) will go down not only in american history but world history as well as a great shame.

How the Iraqi war goes down in history will be what we find out in 10 - 20 years time from now, when Iraq stands/fails to stand on it's own with it's on democratically elected politicians. And as for John F Kennedy, he is the president of a Super power that couldn't invade a small 3rd world nation that was supposedly going to rebel against their evil and tyrannical communist leader, Mr Castro.

 

[CptStern]

How the Iraqi war goes down in history will be what we find out in 10 - 20 years time from now, when Iraq stands/fails to stand on it's own with it's on democratically elected politicians.

it's already been going on for 14 years ..the death toll is mind numbingly chilling, yet that aspect is largely ignored by western media ..especially in the US

 

[kmack]

it's already been going on for 14 years ..the death toll is mind numbingly chilling, yet that aspect is largely ignored by western media ..especially in the US

Many people don't remember that we have had some military "fun" with Iraq before, and still they resist 14 years and two Bushs later.

What makes oyu think that when we pull out now they won't go back to the way they were? The insurgency isn't going anywhere for a long time :|

 

[KoreBolteR]

you should try to be more selective in your sources

here's a good source ...from the horse's mouth no less. It includes some actual CIA classified documents from that era

right, but it was still 52 years ago. this senario is much different..

 

[CptStern]

you dont seem to get it ...Iran is but one of dozens of examples

 

[KoreBolteR]

it's already been going on for 14 years ..the death toll is mind numbingly chilling, yet that aspect is largely ignored by western media ..especially in the US

western media leans towards the terrorists ('insurgents'), and most western news sources try to pick faults with the Iraq war/war on terror.

 

[CptStern]

Many people don't remember that we have had some military "fun" with Iraq before, and still they resist 14 years and two Bushs later.

What makes oyu think that when we pull out now they won't go back to the way they were? The insurgency isn't going anywhere for a long time :|

that's my point

 

[CptStern]

western media leans towards the terrorists ('insurgents'), and most western news sources try to pick faults with the Iraq war/war on terror.

I dont see how you can jump to that all encompassing generalization ..western media is NOT supportive of the insurgancy ..you dont have to look too hard to come to that conclusion

 

[KoreBolteR]

you dont seem to get it ...Iran is but one of dozens of examples

and your trying to compare them to the war in Iraq. this is a much different senario.. i dont see them painting pictures of bush on the walls of iraq.

 

[ComradeBadger]

We should have ended it with the first Gulf War, true, and this may be too late.

Does that make it wrong to correct mistakes of the past?

 

[kmack]

western media leans towards the terrorists ('insurgents'), and most western news sources try to pick faults with the Iraq war/war on terror.

and they are right. you are not. the media presents information, just because they disagree with what you want to hear doesnt make them wrong or defeatists (such idiots who use that word, usually as the justification of their own ignorance, really quite pathetic :| ), it makes you wrong. sorry.

The war is unjustifiable, the costs outweight the benefits, the freedom and democracy will be shaky when/if established and will be unable to stand alone, the insurgents are too powerful, their tactics too good. It's ok, the US loses lots of wars/conflicts.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong, but I respect them for their devotion to their ideals and support for the war, but it is misplaced.

 

[CptStern]

We should have ended it with the first Gulf War, true, and this may be too late.

Does that make it wrong to correct mistakes of the past?

but they're not correcting the right mistake ...they shouldnt have helped him in the first place ..the US actively helped saddam wage war on Iran ..even going as far as to continue to sell him WMD even though the world KNEW that he was gassing iranians. This is a long standing pattern with the US. Support the despot till he grows too big for his britches and then move in and replace him with someone more "suitable" ..it's the same as what happened in Iran, it's the same as what happened in Zaire ...Iraq is no different ..except for the fact that more eyes are watching this time around

 

[CptStern]

and your trying to compare them to the war in Iraq. this is a much different senario.. i dont see them painting pictures of bush on the walls of iraq.

man ...if your not going to take the time to read the links I gave you then there's no use continuing this conversation

 

[KoreBolteR]

and they are right. you are not. the media presents information, just because they disagree with what you want to hear doesnt make them wrong or defeatists (such idiots who use that word, usually as the justification of their own ignorance, really quite pathetic :| ), it makes you wrong. sorry.

The war is unjustifiable, the costs outweight the benefits, the freedom and democracy will be shaky when/if established and will be unable to stand alone, the insurgents are too powerful, their tactics too good. It's ok, the US loses lots of wars/conflicts.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong, but I respect them for their devotion to their ideals and support for the war, but it is misplaced.

no you are hoping for it to be true because its what YOU believe in?.
your saying the media arent biased? all thier facts are 100% true? shall we leave iraq now?

and let the new government be killed off, then let these maniac terrorists rule the nation with fear, mass killings then dumping them in rivers on a wide scale? all across iraq, people gettin looted and kidnapped without any troops there AT ALL? iraqis will feel defenceless against these terrorists if the US leaves.

 

[kmack]

but they're not correcting the right mistake ...they shouldnt have helped him in the first place ..the US actively helped saddam wage war on Iran ..even going as far as to continue to sell him WMD even though the world KNEW that he was gassing iranians. This is a long standing pattern with the US. Support the despot till he grows too big for his britches and then move in and replace him with someone more "suitable" ..it's the same as what happened in Iran, it's the same as what happened in Zaire ...Iraq is no different ..except for the fact that more eyes are watching this time around

welcome to the future of Iraq, the new government is gonna get a little too ballsy, and we are gonna jump in cry WMD, realize thats a lie, CRY freedom and democracy for all, and replace the government at our whim.

 

[kmack]

no you are hoping for it to be true because its what YOU.
your saying the media arent biased? all thier facts are 100% true? shall we leave iraq now?

and let the new government be killed off, then let these maniac terrorists rule the nation with fear, mass killings then dumping them in rivers on a wide scale? all across iraq, people gettin looted and kidnapped without any troops there AT ALL? iraqis will feel defenceless against these terrorists if the US leaves.

Beats the WMD lies :dozey:

yup, thats right. Finally somone understands! sry bout double post >.<

 

[KoreBolteR]

man ...if your not going to take the time to read the links I gave you then there's no use continuing this conversation

you say that everytime stern, you know i read the article. jus accept that what happened then, isnt happening now.

 

[CptStern]

welcome to the future of Iraq, the new government is gonna get a little too ballsy, and we are gonna jump in cry WMD, realize thats a lie, CRY freedom and democracy for all, and replace the government at our whim.

yes and people will cheer ..because people have extremely short memories and even far shorter attention spans ...if it cant be said in a 20 second blurb then it's not worth worrying about

 

[CptStern]

you say that everytime stern, you know i read the article. jus accept that what happened then, isnt happening now.

you read the national archives article and all of the attached documents? there are literally hundreds of them ...wow you must be an exceptional speed reader