Obamacare in Action - No Insurance for New Children

[smwScott]

In a lot of ways I agree with Rakurai. The law as it currently exists is a very watered down compromise that does little to fix the core problems plaguing America's healthcare. Most of the changes it makes are steps in the right direction, some may actually make things worse. Nevertheless, it still doesn't solve the real problems.

What we needed was a public option. The profit motive is fine for most industries, but not for healthcare. Healthcare is a fundamental right and should be an expected service for a first-world country to provide it's citizens. Calling it socialism is nothing more than willful ignorance. A true government funded healthcare program designed to deliver high quality, affordable healthcare program would've stirred competition within the industry and resulted in superior service. Hell, even a pure free market system would be an improvement. As it stands right now, health insurance companies are actually protected from the same anti-trust laws that apply to other corporations - it's one of the only industries in America where regional monopolies are protected.

If you're against government funded healthcare because it's too socialist, then you also have to be against our "socialist" public education, "socialist" public safety services, etc. - otherwise you're an idiot who has been manipulated by corporate interest groups into rallying against your own self-interest.

 

[StarBob]

I didn't want to read all the stuff in this thread to post what's pretty obvious (though it may be a repeat). This shit's only happening because the health insurance industry is notoriously greedy. IT'S THEIR JOB TO MAKE PROFIT. They don't care at all whether you live or die as long as they get their money. It's not their job to care. They are mostly publically traded and have gone through as many possible loopholes to save money as they can. That's health insurance contracts are gigantic and the policies indecipherable, so they can pay for the cheap things (a fraction of what you and your business pay them monthly) and bail on you when something serious goes down.

It's sad really... It's very sad... that we can't have a non-profit government structured health plan. I mean the only people that would be out any money here are investors and the top 1% of insurance companies. It's just sickening to know that people have to suffer because there are rich ****ers who don't want to give up their lucrative insurance businesses.

The other side of the issue is that the medical industry is suffering from the same greed. Hospitals make tons of profits while still garnering donations. Doctors have to make hundreds of thousands of dollars even when they have relatively minor roles in their patients' treatments. There are so many people who use so many elaborate machines and overpriced supplies and unnecessary medications that the costs are pretty much impossible to overcome.

I am gracious every day that I wake up and am not horribly sick because that's another day I know I won't be raped for all the money I have and ever will have for the next 20 years. I can't help but pity those who already have and will be.

Obama's healthcare plan didn't go far enough, but not because he didn't want it to. It was torn to shreds by congress and turned into a whisper of what it was supposed to be. I'd give my left nut to have universal health care. ****, it would probably be cheaper for me to be taxed additionally on my pay check than to keep paying for my mediocre health care. People don't realize that though. The moment you say "more taxes," Joe Everybody screams "**** YOU I DON'T WANT TAXES GRRRRAAAAAA," and flies out the door with 14 picket signs and a retarded chant. They don't even stop to think that "hey, I don't have to pay for health insurance or hospital bills." They're far too stuck on the idea that maybe $2 of their taxes would happen to help someone who can't afford it... despite the fact that a lot of tax money already goes to Medicare and Medicaid.

You know why Joe Everybody thinks that? Because Rich ****er Mcgee who's getting 10% interest on his UHC stake and his closest friends paid a few million to advertise saying that this is true, and the only truth you need to know. Then they send a few million to your next representative's campaign so no matter what goes down, he'll make sure no one is going to **** with that investment.

It's a ****ed up corporate system in the last place it needs to be. Health care should be the last thing people mess with when it comes to humanity... yet because it is ever-growing and ESSENTIAL, people will always seek to profit. In my honest opinion, there shouldn't be any top end profit from health care. Doctors deserve a decent wage for the amount of knowledge they have to retain to be professional. Many other health care professionals deserve the same for the same reasons as well as the work stresses they endure. There should not be a guy at the top of every system holding bags of cash hoping more people are sick so he gets some more bags.

Ok that's the end of my rant. I'm pretty passionate about this with no personal reasons... I'm just aware of the hardships people endure when facing health issues and I know that it doesn't need to be compounded by financial bullshit. I mean if your mom/dad/brother/sister/husband/wife is in the hospital... do you want to be thinking about how your family is going to pay for it in addition to the worry you already have? There are a lot of people that have to do this... all you can do is hope it won't happen to you.

 

[CptStern]

the overwelming majority of hospitals run on a deficit. they're not profit making machines

 

[StarBob]

the overwelming majority of hospitals run on a deficit. they're not profit making machines

EVERY company runs on some deficit. It doesn't mean people aren't making money. It's part of business to constantly be borrowing money. We have two hospitals in this town and both in the last 5-10 years have added major expansions and dozens of staff. Hospitals themselves may not make a ton of money, but nearly everyone on the staff is well paid. Besides, don't you think they lose money from the millions of uninsured people who have to get treatment but can never pay? I would think so...

The only arguments against universal healthcare are those based in greed.

 

[CptStern]

EVERY company runs on some deficit. It doesn't mean people aren't making money.

of course not. salaries are still payed. but it doesnt mean it's a profitr making machine

It's part of business to constantly be borrowing money. We have two hospitals in this town and both in the last 5-10 years have added major expansions and dozens of staff. Hospitals themselves may not make a ton of money, but nearly everyone on the staff is well paid. Besides, don't you think they lose money from the millions of uninsured people who have to get treatment but can never pay? I would think so...

I wouldnt know as I'm canadian. there is no such thing as someone dying from lack of insurance. and yes hospital staff are well paid (that's not even true as nursing staff are underpaid) ..anyways they're trained professional, it's expected that they'd make a good wage

The only arguments against universal healthcare are those based in greed.

pretty much. it's america's fault for handing over their health to insurance companies ..I mean insurance salesmen are one ladder rung above baby eating terrorists

 

[StarBob]

of course not. salaries are still payed. but it doesnt mean it's a profitr making machine



I wouldnt know as I'm canadian. there is no such thing as someone dying from lack of insurance. and yes hospital staff are well paid (that's not even true as nursing staff are underpaid) ..anyways they're trained professional, it's expected that they'd make a good wage

Most hospitals are privately owned or owned by a city or state. I'm sure the owners of private hospitals make money. Nursing staff are fairly well paid for the amount of training they receive. There aren't many jobs where you can make 30-40k a year with barely an associates degree and no experience. It's a high demand job so you can live on it.

And of course no one is completely denied emergency service in life or death situations, but even if you are admitted for whatever reason to the hospital without insurance, you will be stuck with a bill that you won't ever be able to pay.

 

[CptStern]

Most hospitals are privately owned or owned by a city or state. I'm sure the owners of private hospitals make money. Nursing staff are fairly well paid for the amount of training they receive.

dont know how it is in your neck of the woods but nurses in canada (ontario) are overworked/understaffed and underpaid

There aren't many jobs where you can make 30-40k a year with barely an associates degree and no experience.

garabage truck guys make $45k year. nurses to start make about $40K/yr and cap out with 8 years experience. depending on upward mobility a sanitation can move up to a position making closer to 100K year (foreman, driver etc)

It's a high demand job so you can live on it.

$30K/yr is not a living wage. and for the what it is they do; save people's lives they should easily make double that. Police officers make 80K year (in toronto)

And of course no one is completely denied emergency service in life or death situations

sure techically but in reality it has happened enough times that they've legislated to ensure emergency care. also even more insidious is that that your denial of life saving care can be decided by a layperson on a whim

http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/norma-rae-dead-68-after-two-year-stru

but even if you are admitted for whatever reason to the hospital without insurance, you will be stuck with a bill that you won't ever be able to pay.

that's the reality for 45 million americans. it's also the number one reason for personal bankrupcy

 

[No Limit]

garabage truck guys make $45k year. nurses to start make about $40K/yr and cap out with 8 years experience. depending on upward mobility a sanitation can move up to a position making closer to 100K year (foreman, driver etc)

I don't know the official average salary for nurses but my sister's boyfriend makes bank, if you include the travel expenses they give him (about an hour and a half drive each way) he makes probably over 50K a year and he isn't even a registered nurse, he's a nurse assistant. Not the most glorious job with the things he has to deal with but an amazing pay for someone that didn't even need to go to college for the certificate.

But yeah, 30K is not really liveable in this country. And what sucks is single young adults with no kids making that kind of money will be totally ****ed by this bill as they will be forced to buy healthcare that is not affordable to them.

 

[CptStern]

50K isnt liveable in toronto ..not if you want to buy a house and a car

 

[No Limit]

50K is a crap load over here for one person to make. Average rent is probably around $1,000 a month for a very nice apartment with 2 bedrooms. A big house with 3 or 4 bedrooms in a decent area will run you around $400 more.

 

[CptStern]

well it depends where in toronto. you can pay $1000/month for a townhouse ..it might come with chalk outlines of the previous inhabitants though

average is about $1000/month for 1 bedroom anywhere in toronto. it's closer to $1500 in the downtown area and closer to $2500 in the trendy areas. you cant buy a house for less than $350k and that's a run down shit hole in a shitty area. average is about $420K for a small house. average is closer to 600K in downtown area for a decent sized home

 

[Qonfused]

See that's why you live in suburbs.

 

[CptStern]

because you have to

 

[No Limit]

well it depends where in toronto. you can pay $1000/month for a townhouse ..it might come with chalk outlines of the previous inhabitants though

average is about $1000/month for 1 bedroom anywhere in toronto. it's closer to $1500 in the downtown area and closer to $2500 in the trendy areas. you cant buy a house for less than $350k and that's a run down shit hole in a shitty area. average is about $420K for a small house. average is closer to 600K in downtown area for a decent sized home

That's crazy to me, I always wanted to live in a big city but would never want to pay that kind of money for rent.

We have around a million people here and I live in one of the best areas of town. For a 1 bedroom apartment that I think is very nice (nicest one I've ever lived in) I only pay $600 + utilities. How people in LA pay $1,000 a month for what ammounts to a garbage can is strange to me. The apartments downtown here do cost more if you want a really fancy penthouse. But regular apartments downtown which are gated off to keep those annoying homeless people out will run $700 tops for a one bedroom.

 

[StarBob]

Well hell I don't even make 30k a year and I'm surviving... and that's with a around $50,000 in student loans. Hell I wish I made 30k a year. I guess considering I don't really do anything most of the time, I can't say I'm all that underpaid.

 

[CptStern]

That's crazy to me, I always wanted to live in a big city but would never want to pay that kind of money for rent.

We have around a million people here and I live in one of the best areas of town. For a 1 bedroom apartment that I think is very nice (nicest one I've ever lived in) I only pay $600 + utilities. How people in LA pay $1,000 a month for what ammounts to a garbage can is strange to me. The apartments downtown here do cost more if you want a really fancy penthouse. But regular apartments downtown which are gated off to keep those annoying homeless people out will run $700 tops for a one bedroom.

toronto's the largest city in canada and real estate has always been high in demand. the housing crash for example had the exact opposite effect: as the ecomony worsened those that needed to sold their homes for under market value (in toronto less than 1% under market value) but that led to a mad scramble for real estate that it created a boom and in increasing in real estate values across the board

also you dont have to live in toronto. you could, as many do live the adjacent suburbs. it's just that commuting sucks

for a family of 4 to live (and not just basic survival) you'd have to have a joint income of 80K year

 

[No Limit]

Well hell I don't even make 30k a year and I'm surviving... and that's with a around $50,000 in student loans. Hell I wish I made 30k a year. I guess considering I don't really do anything most of the time, I can't say I'm all that underpaid.

I lived alone on 30K a few years back, would not have been possible if I didn't do contract design and development work on my own time. I'm guessing you live with roomates and don't have very many bills. I was always kind of a shit head when it came to spending money, my car payment with insurance costs me more than my rent.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Nobody gives a shit that it was brought up before. I feel the same way now as I did during the whole debate. I know the corporations will **** us any way they can, no matter what the government does. So I'll support the government trying to improve things, while not supporting the corporations what try to **** us. Is that so god damn hard to understand? Guess what would have happened if they used that state law as a model... THE INSURANCE COMPANIES WOULD FIND A WAY TO **** US. ITS WHAT THEY ****ING DO. ITS IN THEIR BEST INTEREST TO **** US AS MUCH AS THEY CAN. So I'll support the best option we can get, which apparently is this half-assed legislation that you ****** ass self-righteous ignorant ****-wit conservatives whittled it down to, ****ing it up for everybody. You all bitch about shit sucking, WELL ITS YOUR GOD DAMN FAULT THIS NEW SHIT SUCK. We had a good ****ing thing going for awhile and then Obama tried to reason with you ****ing assholes in the name of bipartisanship and cooporation, but all you cockbags decided to play politics with people's health and GOD DAMN STONEWALLED ever ****ing thing that was good in it. ****ING ****** COCK SUCKING ******SHIT GOD DAMN IT

Disclaimer: I was trying to make a point, I think. But looking back at the whole situation got me pissed the **** off. The rant isn't directed you Rakurai, or anyone else in specific for that matter.

If they'd "find a way to **** us" then how come they haven't done so in those states already? The only reason this legislation wasn't written in a readable size (I'm not talking about not using legalese, I'm talking about a reasonably long bill) and in an effective manner that emulates state laws is because Congress on both sides of the aisle refused to do so. It's cause and effect

I lived alone on 30K a few years back, would not have been possible if I didn't do contract design and development work on my own time. I'm guessing you live with roomates and don't have very many bills. I was always kind of a shit head when it came to spending money, my car payment with insurance costs me more than my rent.

Come on man I make 32k a year w/ just a HS diploma and I have an easy living (compared to the rest of the world)

It does also depend on where you live though. I dont know your cost of living for the area.

 

[lord_raken]

While the healthcare industry needs to make profit (for itself and investors) this industry has another responsibility, the health of its customers. This means that they can't (shouldn't) act like the other industries who's only concern is profit (and making sure the don't use lead paint).

Regulations need simply need to remind the insurance companies that "Hey! you aren't selling bits of plastic crap, you are maintaing the health of human beings. Shape up!"

As long as the regulations are fair the companies will find way to make it profitable. I'm still not sold on government run healthcare (I still see the same inefficiency present). Free markets are much more efficient, even with regulations.

 

[StarBob]

I lived alone on 30K a few years back, would not have been possible if I didn't do contract design and development work on my own time. I'm guessing you live with roomates and don't have very many bills. I was always kind of a shit head when it came to spending money, my car payment with insurance costs me more than my rent.

Yeah I live with a room mate so that makes it easier. I spend stupidly sometimes and still manage to keep up. Living in WV makes it a lot easier. I could make a lot more anywhere else but I can't move just yet... plus the experience is good for my resume.

 

[V-Man339]

I'm sorry but that's what it's called here in the media.

I think I found our problem; this kid trusts the media.

 

[Eejit]

Corporations will always seek profit however they can. That is undeniable and unchangeable. If they didn't their products wouldn't be produced and the economy would die.

And health insurance companies produce what exactly?

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

I think I found our problem; this kid trusts the media.

Sorry, "kid," but if I said "Compulsory Health Insurance Enrollment" half the people here wouldn't understand what I was talking about and the other half would claim it's scare tactics.

 

[Raziaar]

Sorry, "kid," but if I said "Compulsory Health Insurance Enrollment" half the people here wouldn't understand what I was talking about and the other half would claim it's scare tactics.

Yeah, none of us follow one of the main political subjects of the past year plus. We would have no idea what you were talking about.

 

[Sulkdodds]

I have to agree with Rakurai here. A corporation is a fundamentally avaricious entity, recognised as a legal person and given an enforcible duty to hold profit above every other concern. It's this wolfish nature which makes them useful, and their predatory energy can be an important social force. On the other hand, if they were real people to match their legal standing, they would be psychopaths, and of course they can be very dangerous operations, often institutionally incapable of thinking about the long term or the big picture, and brilliantly adapted to influence elected officials.

While the accepted nature of a corporation doesn't absolve its members of any responsibility for their decisions, it does mean that the government has a duty to be wary. A state that doesn't reckon with reality is incompetent, and in government, all incompetence is criminal. In fact it's one of the big functions of the state to regulate those predator energies. A government is more able than a corporation to step back from the short term profit motive and make decisions at a detached level. This is ideally and in theory; practically I don't know if governments ever are any better at making decisions (rather than enriching themselves by the violation of the public). But that's the idea: provide incentives and regulations, carrots and sticks, to channel corporate energies towards improving our lot rather than ****ing us up.

The insurance companies in this case are not absolved of their ethical breaches. But Congress is just as culpable, if not more so, for not taking a stronger line and developing a system which will work - just as the UK's last government is accountable for the effects of its poor privatisation policy, which let operators fleece the taxpayer for inferior service. He who leaves the fold unguarded cannot blame only the wolf.

 

[No Limit]

Is incompetence in government really criminal? That should probably be the case, but if it were the case pretty much every politician would be behind bars. In the end government is elected by the people. And "we" the people keep electing the same morons. "We" share some of this blame. I put "we" in quotes because obviously it's not everybody, but by fat the majority.

 

[V-Man339]

Is incompetence in government really criminal? That should probably be the case, but if it were the case pretty much every politician would be behind bars. In the end government is elected by the people. And "we" the people keep electing the same morons. "We" share some of this blame. I put "we" in quotes because obviously it's not everybody, but by fat the majority.

Really, it could all be blamed on the fact that we have become too big as a people to be "represented" properly by any successful margin. The fact that we have at any time only two candidates that actually have a chance of successfully being elected doesn't help things.

 

[No Limit]

I think that's true in many ways. But I also blame the media for this. They don't do their jobs. Look at this wikileaks thing, they refuse to report on the substance, instead they spew bullshit such as "there is nothing new to see here, move along people". They did this when the downing street memos came out too. That makes me think the government and the media are in bed with eachother. For a democracy to work properly the media needs to be totally independent.

I think with the internet taking over this will slowly be fixed. But it will be a bumpy road.

 

[V-Man339]

I think that's true in many ways. But I also blame the media for this. They don't do their jobs. Look at this wikileaks thing, they refuse to report on the substance, instead they spew bullshit such as "there is nothing new to see here, move along people". They did this when the downing street memos came out too. That makes me think the government and the media are in bed with eachother. For a democracy to work properly the media needs to be totally independent.

I think with the internet taking over this will slowly be fixed. But it will be a bumpy road.

Yeah, this really isn't new at all.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Is incompetence in government really criminal? That should probably be the case, but if it were the case pretty much every politician would be behind bars.

Oh, we all know politicians get away with almost everything - de-election is no punishment when cushy consultancies are waiting at companies they've formerly helped out - but I was only playing on the phrase "criminal incompetence". It isn't illegal and perhaps shouldn't be. But my point is that mere 'incompetence' is no more forgiveable than balls-out Gog and Magog ideological craziness.

 

[Sparta]

While the healthcare industry needs to make profit (for itself and investors) this industry has another responsibility, the health of its customers. This means that they can't (shouldn't) act like the other industries who's only concern is profit (and making sure the don't use lead paint).

Regulations need simply need to remind the insurance companies that "Hey! you aren't selling bits of plastic crap, you are maintaing the health of human beings. Shape up!"

Once again, in theory this is how it should work, in reality it doesn't come close to it. As Sulks pointed out, corporations (particularly large corporations) behave like sociopaths that have little to no concern for human life. Reminding the insurance companies that they are supposed to be maintaining the health of human beings, is simply going to remind the shareholders and CEO's of those companies that people only think the company is doing its job when its deliberately losing money. No matter what the government says or does, the insurance industry in the U.S. is just so enormous and morally reprehensible, its not going to have any effect on them.

As long as the regulations are fair the companies will find way to make it profitable. I'm still not sold on government run healthcare (I still see the same inefficiency present). Free markets are much more efficient, even with regulations.

Except the health care system in the U.S. is the best argument against privatization in the known world. Just about every government run health care system on the planet is more capable of providing it's citizens with affordable health care that works, than the U.S. and it's privatized system is. We have a great health care system here Australia that's both government run and privatized. Both work much better than the U.S. and both the public and private sector of it have benefits over the other. It's win-win.

The idea that a true free market is the most efficient way to run an economy (which isn't what you were advocating, but still) is an idea that's tearing the U.S. is half and it's this idea that's lead to situations like the deplorable health care system, the subprime mortgage crisis and the current depression. It's this idea that says we should get rid of the minimum wage laws because they discriminate against people with low skills, allow businesses to discriminate for whatever reasons they chose and to **** the up planet as long as we can make a profit. In the U.S. this Milton Friedman approach to economics has led to corporatism not capitalism. Now, any attempt to stir the U.S. back to capitalism is shouted down as Marxism and Socialism and whatever boogeyman corporations can scare up to move the votes to their side of the isle. The U.S. is constantly ****ed over again and again by corporations and then when someone comes along and honestly tries to fix things, they're Hitler or Stalin or Lenin or Mao.