Scientology. religion or cult and the constitutional situation?

[Matt]

[Matt]

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Is Scientology proof that freedom of religion can actually be quite damaging? Discuss.

Secondly whats the legal situation in the states regarding 'cults' and are they covered by the constitutional right for freedom of religion?
 
Well, look at the Wako incident. They were a cult and Janet Reno was deathly afraid of them for some reason and had them wiped out. It's supposed to be freedom of religion here anyways. Oh well. As far as scientology goes, I've never really cared about it, so I choose to ignore it. Again though, as long as said cult doesn't infringe other's rights, there shouldn't be a problem. It's when they start trying to go public with it when people get all scared and superstitious. Also, what do you mean by "damaging"?
 
Whats the defining border between religion and cult? What seperates the two and can your constitutional freedom of religion stretch far enough to cover both? If you would class such an organisation as NOT a religion but a cult could the law be changed or tweaked in the US to do something about scientology without tampering with the constitution?
 
[Matt] said:
Whats the defining border between religion and cult? What seperates the two and can your constitutional freedom of religion stretch far enough to cover both? If you would class such an organisation as NOT a religion but a cult could the law be changed or tweaked in the US to do something about scientology without tampering with the constitution?
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a cult merely a religion that's not widely accepted? Here, I think dictionary.com better defines what a "cult" really is. Regardless, I don't think it's the "cult" itself that defines what a particular group can and cannot do in the U.S., rather, it's whether or not their said "cult" ceremonies fits the moral and acceptable criteria or not. (i.e. sacrificial ceremonies esp. human sacrifices obviously)
 
"This new so-called religion is nothing but a pack of weird rituals and chants designed to take away the money of fools. Now let's say the Lord's Prayer 40 times, but first let's pass the collection plate."

In my own opinion there is no real distinction between religion and cults, merely how much it conflicts with secular morality and people's beliefs, as well as the population of the religion/cult, designating it one or the other.
 
I'm struggling to see how anybody I know has been harmed by Scientology. Not that I know any members, but really, why would you care if someone chooses to join up?
 
Why would you care if somebody unquestionably believed a fortune teller? While I know little of their practices, preying on the gullible in society to influence their thoughts for the benefit of the leaders of the religion is not exactly acceptable in my book.

But you never know, they could be right! :rolleyes:

In terms of the Scientology movement as a whole, they seem relatively harmless, but I'm sure there are practices and beliefs that many would disagree with. I'm gonna research more on the subject...
 
Parrot of doom said:
I'm struggling to see how anybody I know has been harmed by Scientology. Not that I know any members, but really, why would you care if someone chooses to join up?
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Because its not their choice its mine! ITS MINE ITS MINE ITS MINE! :frown:

Anyways according to Louis Jolyon West:

A cult is a group or movement exhibiting a great or excessive devotion or dedication to some person, idea or thing and employing unethically manipulative techniques of persuasion and control (e.g. isolation from former friends and family, debilitation, use of special methods to heighten suggestibility and subservience, powerful group pressures, information management, suspension of individuality or critical judgment, promotion of total dependency on the group and fear of [consequences of] leaving it, etc) designed to advance the goals of the group's leaders to the actual or possible detriment of members, their families, or the community.
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Anyways he was a psychiatrist, and expert on torture and so on and worked with vets who were tortured in the Korean War..read about him here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Jolyon_West
He wrote some articles on scientology, they're listed at the bottom of the page.

Anyways it should be freedom from religion, and I guess that includes scientology as much as any of those stupid islamists who protested (last year I think?) in NY screaming down with the infidels! Yet nobody had any problem with that! So why not?:dozey:
 
I think I'm going to start my own religion...
 
I think the there are two major boundaries for religious organizations:

1. They must not be allowed involvement with government
2. They cannot be allowed to spread their influence

All to prevent factions or interests groups from forming and gaining popularity.

Isn't religion supposed to be the most dangerous interest group of all or something?
 
Then there's reason to be alarmed at the state of the government and the governed.
 
move to sweden if you dont like religion, seriously. politically, the pseudo nazi party gets more votes than the christian party.
 
I hate people who respond to YouTube videos... urgh...
 
If freedom of religion can be damaging, then just revoke it. :/
 
No... not at all. Just generalising.

If you ever made an ignorant comment, argued against scientific fact, stated something blindingly stupid, posted an opinion with the conviction that it's fact, no matter how improbable or unlikely that may be or responded with your opinion layed out as if it's the only thing that anyone would ever want to read... then Yes, I hate you.

But I can imagine you to be one of the few people who attempts to make a difference in the intertubes by providing positively constructive reviews on things, explaining why you might consider something to require improvement, or go about forming your opinions in a purely subjective way. I thank you for (appearing to be) one of those people :).
 
Well, I figured you werent but ok. :D btw you should start your own religion, call it drucklinity..it seems easy to do when you read on the ridiculous things ron hubbard said he did, and all the things he got away with.
 
15357 said:
If freedom of religion can be damaging, then just revoke it. :/
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Get out.


It may be damaging, but only to those who are stupid enough to believe in it. As much as I hate the thing, Scientology has every right to be a religion. Its just sad that people will believe in such nonsense. So if people choose to believe in it and end up worse for it, hey it was their choice.

The answer isnt to ban it. The answer is to debunk everything they say and public denounce it's "truths" as fiction, and when people realize what a crock of shit it is, they wont join. Certainly not the most glamorous or satisfying response, but the only legit one we can do without being hypocritical.
 
Quick! Change civics to Pacifism!
???
What the shit do you MEAN we have 80 turns of anarchy?!
 
The only effective distinction between a religion and a cult is that a (recognised) religious organisation is entitled to certain tax breaks, generally. Incidentally, Scientology is not a recognised religion in the UK and a fair few other countries.

The question 'Is Scientology a religion or a cult?' could be reworded to:

'Does the Church of Scientology - an organisation which wages vicious hate campaigns against its critics and attempts to ruin their lives (Operation Freakout), has murky connections to several deaths, has a history of attempting to infiltrate the US government (Operation Snow White), exists solely to part wealthy converts from their cash and whose members are forced to 'disconnect' from their families - deserve tax breaks?'

To which the answer should be '**** no'.

Another reason they want to be recognised as a religion is so that they can beat any critics of their shady practices over the head with the usual 'freedom of religion' shite in order to silence them.
 
I've heard that Scientology tears families apart, bankrupts the bottom tier of people who join it, and uses violence to control others.

Of course, I could be wrong. I don't know anyone personally affiliated with Scientology.
 
Think I might join scientology. Just to find out what all the fuss is about.
 
Krynn72 said:
Get out.


It may be damaging, but only to those who are stupid enough to believe in it. As much as I hate the thing, Scientology has every right to be a religion. Its just sad that people will believe in such nonsense. So if people choose to believe in it and end up worse for it, hey it was their choice.

The answer isnt to ban it. The answer is to debunk everything they say and public denounce it's "truths" as fiction, and when people realize what a crock of shit it is, they wont join. Certainly not the most glamorous or satisfying response, but the only legit one we can do without being hypocritical.
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I know man, but it feels way more better with an official red stamp of DENIED or BANNED. :P

Mikael Grizzly said:
I'd rather you revoked your right to live. :\
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:(
 
I gotta say, you people pick on Numbers too much. You can tell when he's joking.

I think.

Ok, you can't. Just assume he is and everything will flow better...
 
I'd say religions that believed in human sacrifice are the most dangerous.

and just look at those cults who mass suicide just so they can be with god, that sounds bad for you.
 
Avoidist said:
"This new so-called religion is nothing but a pack of weird rituals and chants designed to take away the money of fools. Now let's say the Lord's Prayer 40 times, but first let's pass the collection plate."

In my own opinion there is no real distinction between religion and cults, merely how much it conflicts with secular morality and people's beliefs, as well as the population of the religion/cult, designating it one or the other.
Click to expand...
I used to think the same thing many years ago, and I can see how it is viewed that way, but it is the furthest thing from the truth. Cults, distorted "religions", and assholes hiding behind religious "badges" have made all decent Christianity look bad, but you can not go by appearance, one must study it in its entirety for the true answer. Scientology is yet another CRAP religion that only touches the fringes of truth.
 
Avoidist said:
Why would you care if somebody unquestionably believed a fortune teller? While I know little of their practices, preying on the gullible in society to influence their thoughts for the benefit of the leaders of the religion is not exactly acceptable in my book.

But you never know, they could be right! :rolleyes:

In terms of the Scientology movement as a whole, they seem relatively harmless, but I'm sure there are practices and beliefs that many would disagree with. I'm gonna research more on the subject...
Click to expand...
Caring, because watching others believe in lies that can devastate them and the loved ones around them caused by consequences of misguided actions. The fingers of ruin reach deep.

Lets say ho-bitch know nothing money grubbing fortune teller says "you will win big in Vegas next weekend". So the person goes "OMG" I have to go to Vegas, takes out life savings and loses it all plus ass in Vegas. True story...I know a guy a lot of years ago that actually did this, consequently he not only lost his dough, but his construction company, wife divorced and left him as result, lost everything. Desponent he drove his car at high speed into a grove of trees and killed himself, and also ruined some perfectly good trees. This is why you care. This is why you try to set people straight.
 
Tom Cruise is proof enough that Scientology needs to die. Seriously.
 
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