Sunday Halloween Irks Some in Bible Belt

[Farrowlesparrow]

Your problem with religious folk seems to be very centred around the actions of the people rather than the ideals they at least claim to stand for.

Edit: Also, I would like to say that...many many people in the world feel its somehow their duty to tell others what to do. I believe that regardless of what religion they are, they do this because its just part of their personality.

 

[Neutrino]

How do you mean? Mainstream religious people are extreme? Or your views are mainstream?

Hmm, how to put it...

Basically I mean that "extremism" is very subjective. I personally consider christian fundamentalists to be quite extreme. However, many people wouldn't. That's all I meant.

"Hurting society and its culture"...sorry to be the one to tell you this, but actually "religion" is the majority of society and its culture.

Please notice that I said the "extreme forms".

Yes, you're correct that a majority of the population is religious. But my opinion is many of the more extreme religious views and even some of the mainstream ones are hurting society in general. Society, being the sum interactions of the population and how we all get along. Like I said, please don't take offense. It's just my opinion.

Edit: And yes, much of my problems with religion stem from specific actions of people acting in the name of religion. Though I do have problems with the basic idea of it as well.

 

[Phraxtion]

as a former catholic and theology student I'm well aware of the many shortcomings of christendom ..ya ok, I dislike christianity because in the last few years a moral minority has been all too vocal ...for example, last year 2000 christians marched on parliament hill (ottawa) demading the government not allow same sex marriages or as they put it "sinning sodomites". The archbishop on national tv called gays "sinners and sodomites" yet he has been more than neglegant in prosecuting quite a few priests that molested children

...ok I gave you the long version. Short version: I dont want anyone saying what I can and cant do, especially people who feel it's their moral obligation to interfere with what I do

I know what your saying and I agree. With any religion, organization, group, etc. you have the same types of people. There everywhere, im just saying that you always point out the negatives when theres lots of positives, as youve done with this post.

 

[ComradeBadger]

Any form of fundamentalism is negative imo, it's regression when what humanity needs is progress, however you could argue that returning to the 'good old days' (fundamentalist idealogy immensely simplified) would be progress.

But not to me

 

[Neutrino]

I know what your saying and I agree. With any religion, organization, group, etc. you have the same types of people. There everywhere, im just saying that you always point out the negatives when theres lots of positives, as youve done with this post.

Let me just say that anything I say on this subject is probably going to be offensive to many people. I apologize for that.

But to respond to what you said, I think all those positive things you mention can be done just as easily without any religious involvement. I don't see religion as being a requirement for doing those things. For example, religious organizations often help people in need in one way or another. But I don't consider that to be because of religion. I think that is just people helping other people. I, and other non-religious people, are just as capable of doing the same things.

So basically I think all the positives can exist without religion and are not really a result of it. But to be fair using that same argument the negative things would not be a result of religion either. People are people and sometimes they do good things and sometimes they do bad things no matter what they believe. So in that respect you can't really blame or credit an idea for people's actions. Though I think many hide behind such ideas to justify those actions. I just think religion provides such an incredibly strong justification for people's actions that it can be a bad thing. That is probably my main complaint with it when all is said and done.

Sorry, I'm sure I'm going to rub a lot of people the wrong way here.

 

[Farrowlesparrow]

You're not rubbing me up the wrong way, but it seems that what you are saying is almost one sided. So you say the positives associated with "religion" basically don't count because we can all do that anyway? Well, the same goes for every negative associated with "religion". You seem to have said that, but its practically hidden.

 

[Neutrino]

You're not rubbing me up the wrong way, but it seems that what you are saying is almost one sided. So you say the positives associated with "religion" basically don't count because we can all do that anyway? Well, the same goes for every negative associated with "religion". You seem to have said that, but its practically hidden.

Sorry, I hit submit while I was still editing my post. I did try to make that point as well.

I do agree with that. Like I said, it's really the fact that religion provides such strong justification for people's actions that I don't like.

Edit: Hehe, sorry I'm getting in a bad habit of editing too much. Anyway, it's not only the justification that it provides that bothers me. Another big thing is that most of it is based on interpretation of written text. That's all well and good except for the fact that all the different groups claim their interpretation is the absolutely correct one and then use that interpretation to form values and moral that affect other people. I think this absolute certaintity in one's own ideas is a very dangerous thing. I think a person should always be questioning their fundamental ideas and values. That's how we learn and grow in my opinion.

 

[CptStern]

Any form of fundamentalism is negative imo, it's regression when what humanity needs is progress, however you could argue that returning to the 'good old days' (fundamentalist idealogy immensely simplified) would be progress.

But not to me

yes ..that's why it's so scary: the mainstream is adopting fundamentalist views ...the "good ol days" are like a beacon that many religions are adopting in a paranoid attempt to protect their ideology from changes from outside the religion. The issue behind same sex marriages isnt really that it's a threat to the institution of marriage, it's what at's stake that's so important to them: their values, their morality, their religious doctrine. If society passes a law that is contrary to their religious doctrine, the religion must respond by defending it's point of view

Phraxtion: there are many good things about christianity but as Neutrino pointed out I dont have to be spiritual in order to participate in these types of humanistic endeavours. I hold Mother therea (catholic) in the utmost level of respect, along with Gandhi, Dalai lama (to an extent, he's been irking me lately) Lennon and Marley :thumbs:

 

[Phraxtion]

Your problem with religious folk seems to be very centred around the actions of the people rather than the ideals they at least claim to stand for.

Edit: Also, I would like to say that...many many people in the world feel its somehow their duty to tell others what to do. I believe that regardless of what religion they are, they do this because its just part of their personality.

The bible tells christians to "preach the word" if you will. To go out and tell people about the word of God. Dont get me wrong I know some of these "preachers" tend to come on a little to strong and sometimes down right offensive. They shouldnt shove it in your face and tell you your going to roast in hell. They are to be respectful, kind and tell you in a loving manner. If someone dosent want to here it, well thats all they can do.

People often make the mistake in thinking they are trying to force you into following their ways, in some cases this is true, but a true christian is caring and only trying to help, not trying to be disrespectful or rude.

 

[qckbeam]

I personally dislike religion for the very reason Neutrino gave. It's used by so many people as justification for their actions. I agree, many things are used in that way. People will always find an excuse to do what they want, but religion is such a strong excuse. It's incredibly difficult, if not impossible, to argue agaisnt someone, or change their mind, whenever faith is involved.

 

[Phraxtion]

yes ..that's why it's so scary: the mainstream is adopting fundamentalist views ...the "good ol days" are like a beacon that many religions are adopting in a paranoid attempt to protect their ideology from changes from outside the religion. The issue behind same sex marriages isnt really that it's a threat to the institution of marriage, it's what at's stake that's so important to them: their values, their morality, their religious doctrine. If society passes a law that is contrary to their religious doctrine, the religion must respond by defending it's point of view

Phraxtion: there are many good things about christianity but as Neutrino pointed out I dont have to be spiritual in order to participate in these types of humanistic endeavours. I hold Mother therea (catholic) in the utmost level of respect, along with Gandhi, Dalai lama (to an extent, he's been irking me lately) Lennon and Marley :thumbs:

I never said people have to have a spiritual following to "participate in these types of humanistic endeavours". I was just saying you tend to point out only the actions of certain people that are associated with the church.

 

[CptStern]

I never said people have to have a spiritual following to "participate in these types of humanistic endeavours". I was just saying you tend to point out only the actions of certain people that are associated with the church.

heh that was meant for ComradeBadger ..I responded to both of you in that one post

 

[K e r b e r o s]

I was just saying you tend to point out only the actions of certain people that are associated with the church.

Well thats okay. What do catholics think of this, "Hallows Eve"?

 

[seinfeldrules]

I've banned Christmas in favour of Festivus this year ...It's a Festivus Miracle!!!

LOL! :bounce: :thumbs:

 

[blahblahblah]

Edit: Hehe, sorry I'm getting in a bad habit of editing too much. Anyway, it's not only the justification that it provides that bothers me. Another big thing is that most of it is based on interpretation of written text. That's all well and good except for the fact that all the different groups claim their interpretation is the absolutely correct one and then use that interpretation to form values and moral that affect other people. I think this absolute certaintity in one's own ideas is a very dangerous thing. I think a person should always be questioning their fundamental ideas and values. That's how we learn and grow in my opinion.

Now that is wrong. Just because I am a Christian does not mean I cannot question certain beliefs and be open minded. You have certain fundamental beliefs that are not alterable (like murder for instance). Christians have theirs.

However, you wouldn't know this but Christians have great debates among one another about numerous topics like homosexuality and evolution and how it fits in the church. Just because I have a current stance does not mean I don't consider other stances/explanations. The same goes for most of the other Christians I know. It is more of a stereotype than a correct assumption.

I honestly doubt you have an open mind. You frankly make an appereance of open mindness, but I have never seen you change your mind on a subject. How is that open mind? I don't see you questioning your fundamental ideas and beliefs.

 

[Neutrino]

Like I said, I'm sure it will offend some people, which I apologized for. It's just my opinion, which I will concede might not be correct. But it is the way I see things currently. I am truly sorry if it offends.

Now that is wrong. Just because I am a Christian does not mean I cannot question certain beliefs and be open minded. You have certain fundamental beliefs that are not alterable (like murder for instance). Christians have theirs.

I was of course speaking in general and was not singling individuals out. I have no doubt that some people do question things, but as far as I've seen there are many fundamental things the many churches do not question to any great extent.

I have certain fundamental beliefs that are unalterable? Hmm, I don't really think so. As for murder I don't think it's wrong as I don't think there is actually such a thing as morality. The reasons I'm against it are because I have an emotional reaction to it and because it is best for society to have laws against it. But in the grand scheme of things I don't think the killing of a human is any worse than the killing of a bear or other animal. It's only from a human perspective that it is seen as worse.

However, you wouldn't know this but Christians have great debates among one another about numerous topics like homosexuality and evolution and how it fits in the church. Just because I have a current stance does not mean I don't consider other stances/explanations. The same goes for most of the other Christians I know. It is more of a stereotype than a correct assumption.

Again, please realize I was speaking in very general terms. No doubt some christians do question these things. However, I know many who do not. My opinion is also based off things like people supporting a ban on gay marriage for religious reasons. If they question the truth of their view at all why in the world would they be for a permanent ban on it? Why do some christians want to make laws on abortion based on their beliefs if they aren't sure if they're right? Sure, certainly not all do but again I'm speaking in general. Also, note that I was talking about what I consider to be extremists, which obviously does not include nearly everyone.

Also, I was speaking of other things as well. Do many Christians question the validity of the ten commandments? Do many Christians question the existence of God? Of heaven? Of hell? These were some of the other things I was referring to. Now perhaps you do or you know others that do. Or maybe you don't. I don't know. I'm speaking from my general experience with the religion. Basically it is my view that an absolute belief in something is not a good thing. But that is just my view. You are more than welcome to disagree with it.

Edit: I used the word "Christian" because that was what you were talking about. However, I didn't mean to single out that religion. I was talking about pretty much every religion, not just one specific one. I just realized it looked like I was trying to single that one out when I didn't mean to.

I honestly doubt you have an open mind. You frankly make an appereance of open mindness, but I have never seen you change your mind on a subject. How is that open mind? I don't see you questioning your fundamental ideas and beliefs.

I do question them all the time. I fully realize I come off as very opinionated in my writing on the forum. It's really not a very good reflection of who I am though. The reason is that I mostly argue one side of an issue because there are already plenty of people arguing the other side and to do so would hurt my own position within the debate. Mostly I enjoy debating, but you can't really do that properly if you provide arguments for both sides. This makes it appear that I am very one sided, but I do try to see both sides. If you want I can make a list of things I don't like about John Kerry and a list of things I like about George Bush. Another thing is that my mom is extremely anti Bush. But did you know that when I talk to her on the phone about politics half the time I end up defending Bush?

Another example is the movie Fahrenheit 9/11. When I first saw that movie I was frankly disgusted by the Bush administration and was horrified at some of the things it said. But I eventually found a non-partisan site that examined the points in it and I'll admit that many of the movies points are very misleading and do not represent the facts accurately. Many of it's messages are still within the ballpark, but many are not. Speaking of that I once despised Michael Moore when he first spoke out against the war in Iraq. I remember the first speech he gave on it in Hollywood and I thought it was incredibly poor taste to do so at the time. Now I'm somewhat ambivalent. I somewhat admire what he tries to do, but I somewhat question his methods.

Let's see what else. Did you know I was once a Bush supporter? Yep, I once supported the war in Iraq and the Bush adminstration and its choice to wage that war.

Also, I fully admit I'm no where near perfect and I undoubtedly make mistakes and do not keep an open mind on all things like I think I should. But that is one of my basic philosophies in life and I try to adhere to it the best I can. Sorry, I didn't really mean to get so defensive. It's just I don't see how you can claim to know those things when you really have no idea of who I am. Here's an example for you: Did you know that my best friend whom I've known for over 15 years is a fundamentalist Christian? Heh, I'm going to guess that you didn't know that.

Now to be fair I don't really blame you as I realize you probably took some of my words as a personal attack as I was criticizing something that is obvioulsy very important to you. But it truly wasn't directed at you or any other specific individual. I want to stress that I was speaking in general and mostly about those that I consider to be extremists.

I'll say it again though, I'm truly sorry if I give offense or if you found my words insulting. It is not my intention and perhaps I should have never expressed my views if people are going to be hurt by them at all. But it's done, so all I can say is that sorry if I offended you but those are my current views.

Hope you can understand that.

:cheers:

 

[blahblahblah]

But it's done, so all I can say is that sorry if I offended you but those are my current views.

Hope you can understand that.

:cheers:

It didn't offend me to much. I just felt I needed to reply to that. It just so happened I was writing my reply after doing 10 hours of homework so I was a bit more blunt then I should have been. :cheers:

 

[Neutrino]

It didn't offend me to much. I just felt I needed to reply to that. It just so happened I was writing my reply after doing 10 hours of homework so I was a bit more blunt then I should have been. :cheers:

No problem, I just wanted to clear up that I wasn't trying to attack anyone personally.

Anywho, on to other things for now. Did you know that the feeling you get after eating a quarter bag of oreos isn't really all that pleasent? :x

I don't have an addiction! I can stop any time I want!

 

[blahblahblah]

No problem, I just wanted to clear up that I wasn't trying to attack anyone personally.

Anywho, on to other things for now. Did you know the feeling you get after eating a quarter bag of oreos isn't really all that pleasent? :x

I don't have an addiction! I can stop any time I want!

Try eating a quarter of a bag of stale oreos, just because you are to cheap to throw them away. :x:x Nothing like being young and cheap. :x

 

[Lil' Timmy]

try consuming a quarter of a bag of quarters.. talk about a cast-iron stomach! ugh, why did i do that? :x

 

[Neutrino]

try consuming a quarter of a bag of quarters.. talk about a cast-iron stomach! ugh, why did i do that? :x

That's some expensive shit.

 

[merc]

im going streaking for the first time on halloween, little kids are going to be scarred for life

-merc

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Can I come with? ...

 

[CptStern]

hmmm I'm taking my son trick or treating next year for the first time ...If I see a bunch of teenagers scaring little kids they'll have to deal with "Vengeful Dad"

 

[Neutrino]

hmmm I'm taking my son trick or treating next year for the first time ...If I see a bunch of teenagers scaring little kids they'll have to deal with "Vengeful Dad"

I hear tasers are quite handy.

Especially on naked people.

 

[CptStern]

LOL!!!! ...mmmm maybe the smell of burning flesh will make me sick ..oh well :E .....heeeheee