The question not answered by the VST :(

[sk0t]

Hmm, as much commotion as this VST has raised, it really dident help me in my gfx buying decision (trying to choose between 6800gt vs. x800pro).

As some of the more leveheaded ppl has been pointing out, all it really shows is than any x800/6800-series card will be able to run the game at stunningly high resoultions, with some AA/AF and decent fps.

The really interesting question is the use of 3dc, now potentially 3dc could allow 400% higher details on normal.maps and certain other textures, but will hl2 include such extra details for owners of 3dc-enabled hardware, we just dont know - just as we dont know if it will result in any sort of performance loss ?

All that has been released (on 3dc in hl2), is one screenshot (with bad quality), showing higher details of water, and since water is traditionally done by shaders, not normal maps - then this is fishy at best :flame:

Questions about this receive no answer from valve, and the few ppl in the industry who admits having information on the hl2 implementation of 3dc, says that they are under NDA and cant talk about it. This is actully the only sense inwitch valve annoys me greatly.

And even if hl2 would come out with 400% more normal.map/"special texture" details for 3dc owners, how will the community react to this? - think its safe to say that less than 10% would have 3dc support, leaving 90% of its potential customers feeling cheated (maybe not fair, but hey - it's the feeling) - and will this happen in other games as well? (ATI probably wont be handing out 6m$ to all game.developers )

ps. NO, i dont think this belongs in the hardware section, it touches on Graphics, Hardware, marketing and game.development :angel:

 

[Tab]

If theyre under NDA and cant tell you whether its true or not, then theyre hiding something and you should go with the 6800 much better card and i believe its cheaper. I wouldnt be suprised if the 6800 got the same fps maybe even better than the 800 series cards

 

[aeroripper]

honestly i think 3dc will be "flaspan" technology... like truform

OR at least not used a lot in games until a few years

 

[Kazuki_Fuse]

I just bought a X800XT and I think you've raised a good point about ATI cards and 3DC. I'm betting it is implemented into HL2, on the other hand I've got a feeling that we'll be seeing as much of 3DC as we are of smoothshader. I reckon it'll end up being something similar, a white elephant.

 

[poseyjmac]

remember that valve is going to put support in for sm 3.0 for nvidia cards. valve wants both cards to run well, so they'll continually add more optimizations for both as time goes on. i dont think you could go wrong with either a x800 or 6800. and i wouldn't wait up for 3dc and sm 3.0 to affect your decision because they both could be a while

 

[Kazuki_Fuse]

shit sorry yeah i meant truform not smoothshader. I think youre spot on aerotripper.

 

[Plug]

games are using normal maps though, and 3dc is a compression method to enable much more detailed ones. Soon every game in developement will be utilising 3dc, surely... it just makes sense. The only way it would go under is if nvidia take over and introduce some other method of compression - which (So far as i know) the 6800 doesn't... hmmm there's some funky competition going on atm :cheers:

either way, i'm glad i got my x800 pro. It makes sense to me.

 

[sk0t]

games are using normal maps though, and 3dc is a compression method to enable much more detailed ones.

Just to be anal about it, 3dc is a method to compress normal.maps, and can be used either to compress exisiting maps, for performance gain - or include higher detailed maps.

Since the performance of any x800/6800 is really good, the performance gain is uninteresting (to me), while the possiblilty of higher detailed normal.maps are very interessting (to me).

Soon every game in developement will be utilising 3dc, surely...

Perhaps (no real evidence yet) but which type of 3dc, performance or extra details, thats the big question!

The only way it would go under is if nvidia take over and introduce some other method of compression - which (So far as i know) the 6800 doesn't. .

Nope, 6800 is left with the old (DXT5) directx compression (quality loss)

. hmmm there's some funky competition going on atm :cheers: .

Roger that :thumbs:

 

[OCybrManO]

Whether or not 3Dc will be incorporated into DirectX the way S3TC was remains to be seen and is completely up to Microsoft, but it seems to be ATi's goal. At any rate, the company calls its technique an open standard, meaning it can be used by anyone without royalty payments.

So, nvidia can use it in their next line of cards if they want to.

Here's an article with some example images:

http://www.neoseeker.com/Articles/Hardware/Reviews/r420preview/3.html

 

[Sparta]

Get the cheapest one, because they'll run any game fantastic anyway.

 

[Tab]

none of those links work

 

[sk0t]

Here's an article with some example images:
http://www.neoseeker.com/Articles/Hardware/Reviews/r420preview/3.html

That was actully the image i refered to in my first post, however:

1. it's from ATI's promotion material
2. as mentioned, the difference is in the water (which should be done by shader, not normal.map?)
3. its rather bad quality
4. why have we only been shown this one (bad) screenshot?

As for nvidia implementing 3dc, well thats a pretty "cheap" gift from ati - imagine for a sec that you where nvidia:

"ok, so we can announce support for 3dc in oure next gen card, thereby reasuring game.developers that its worth implementing, and thereby basicly telling ppl to choose ati over nvidia for this generation of cards....."

Not to likely that they would do that

 

[mutt]

i like how when u compare things like this u see near to no difference long live marketing!

 

[Lanthanide]

sk0t - Why would ATi/valve lie about a feature, saying it was in the game, and giving screenshot evidence? What good does it do for their reputation to lie about a feature? So -why- would they do it? Perhaps it gets taken out because it's buggy or some-such, but there's no reason to believe this would be the case, it's really not that complicated a thing (just a special compression algorithm).

Secondly, why are you saying that "the difference in the water should be done by shader, not 3dc". I don't think you're qualified to talk about the subject unless you're very knowledgable about 3d graphics engines and/or work at valve/ati/nvidia.

 

[sk0t]

sk0t - Why would ATi/valve lie about a feature

Im very sorry If my posts are interpreted as an acusation of either of them lying, thats is by no means my intention.

Im actully only venting my frustration, that we are not given any decent information on the 3dc implementation in hl2 (ie. is it mainly performance, or mainly eye.candy) as the lack of this information is whats keeping me from buying a new card today!

I do however speculate that it might not be a 400% detail enhancment at no performance cost, as if that was the case, I belive the info whould be published (ATI marketing would naturaly want that info out)

What i tried to acomplish with this thread whas this:

1. find out if anybody has authorative info on the 3dc implementation in hl2

2. ask how this comunity would react if 3dc-enabled hardware got a much(4x) higher level of details in part of the game

As for my comments on the water being done by shader/normal.map - yes you are right, im far from competent, but im simply stating what I always heard from more competent ppl (reviewers, hardware site staff, etc), that water effects are mainly done by shaders, and not by normal maps.

And I do find it peculiar that the only screenshot published is this bad quality water one, why not show us a charecter/model with a higly(4x) detailed normal.map - that is what other games (and ATI´s promotional material did).

I keep a pretty open mind as to what hardware to buy, and I do not wish to be part of a ati/nvidia flamewar, I merly try to get as much info as possible, upon which to base my buying-decision

 

[Sparta]

Im very sorry If my posts are interpreted as an acusation of either of them lying, thats is by no means my intention.

Im actully only venting my frustration, that we are not given any decent information on the 3dc implementation in hl2 (ie. is it mainly performance, or mainly eye.candy) as the lack of this information is whats keeping me from buying a new card today!

I do however speculate that it might not be a 400% detail enhancment at no performance cost, as if that was the case, I belive the info whould be published (ATI marketing would naturaly want that info out)

What i tried to acomplish with this thread whas this:

1. find out if anybody has authorative info on the 3dc implementation in hl2

2. ask how this comunity would react if 3dc-enabled hardware got a much(4x) higher level of details in part of the game

As for my comments on the water being done by shader/normal.map - yes you are right, im far from competent, but im simply stating what I always heard from more competent ppl (reviewers, hardware site staff, etc), that water effects are mainly done by shaders, and not by normal maps.

And I do find it peculiar that the only screenshot published is this bad quality water one, why not show us a charecter/model with a higly(4x) detailed normal.map - that is what other games (and ATI´s promotional material did).

I keep a pretty open mind as to what hardware to buy, and I do not wish to be part of a ati/nvidia flamewar, I merly try to get as much info as possible, upon which to base my buying-decision

A number of the characters actually do have normal maps on them, they are just really really subtle and realistic, unlike games like Far Cry and Doom 3 (Just saying, not dissing them)
Also the Combine have shaders on them, if you've watched the new trainstation bink from Yahoo.com you'll notice them

In the game it really looks quite impressive (played the leak)

 

[qckbeam]

As for my comments on the water being done by shader/normal.map - yes you are right, im far from competent, but im simply stating what I always heard from more competent ppl (reviewers, hardware site staff, etc), that water effects are mainly done by shaders, and not by normal maps.

The surface of the water is distorted according to the normals contained inside a normal map. It's just like how a normal map is used for lighting calculations by a shader.

 

[sk0t]

The surface of the water is distorted according to the normals contained inside a normal map. It's just like how a normal map is used for lighting calculations by a shader.

Ahh, thanks for that info

Still I would love some sort of official info on their 3dc support, well - guess ill either have to take my "chance" with a gf6800gt, or wait til the game comes out *sigh*