The reason why the Combine soldiers suck so much.

[Maxey]

They don't have a real motivation to do what they do. They're controlled pawns, killing people because they have to or else they have a fate worse than death.

The marines in HL1 were much better at combat because that's their motivation: to kill everyone that was not them. They were real psychos, trained to kill and willing to do it.

So, maybe the reason the Combine foot-soldiers suck so much in HL2 is not because the AI is worse. Is because they don't give a shit and they'd probably rather die.

 

[Ennui]

Maybe Civil Protection, but the others (Overwatch soldiers, Overwatch Elites, Nova Prospekt Overwatch, etc) are all biomechanically augmented and are no longer human, nor are they necessarily sympathetic to the human cause as some Civil Protection may be.

 

[Barnz]

yeah i agree, they're not cool as grunts - their ai is actualy good (or is it?). grunts still surprise me to date (even though path finding does not work perfect on modern PCs)

 

[Laivasse]

Faulty premise 1 = Combine soldiers suck at combat.

They don't. They are easy to kill, due to the wide array of one-shot-wonder weapons that Gordon has at his disposal, which is a different thing. Need results? Revolver shot inna head. No ammo? Double shotty blast. No shotty ammo? Wtf are you spending it on? Fine, get an instakill using a gravgun physprop. None around? Christ alive, use your smg or pulse rifle alt fire, or a rocket. If all else fails, an smg clip aimed at their head will also drop them - which, I shouldn't have to remind you, is a good thing, since it gives your weapons weight and makes your kills feel satisfyingly real. The drawback is that enemy troops don't get much of a chance to showcase their AI.

Faulty premise 2 = HL1 marines "were much better at combat".

They weren't. They were, on Hard, ludicrously impervious sacks of meat who could soak up tons of punishment, making your mp5 feel as if it fired acorns. Which is different. They still sat on their own grenades half the time.

Strained conclusion = the Transhuman arm of the Combine overwatch lack motivation.

As Ennui says, outside CP you can't expect the rest of the troops Gordon faces to have much sympathy for the human cause. Quite aside from whatever compulsion/incentivisation they face from their masters, they are fighting for their survival, judging by Breen's speech at NP. Failure to prove themselves means extinction - "in union with all the other unworthy branches of the species".

 

[fishdbaz]

Faulty premise 1 = Combine soldiers suck at combat.

They don't. They are easy to kill, due to the wide array of one-shot-wonder weapons that Gordon has at his disposal, which is a different thing. Need results? Revolver shot inna head. No ammo? Double shotty blast. No shotty ammo? Wtf are you spending it on? Fine, get an instakill using a gravgun physprop. None around? Christ alive, use your smg or pulse rifle alt fire, or a rocket. If all else fails, an smg clip aimed at their head will also drop them - which, I shouldn't have to remind you, is a good thing, since it gives your weapons weight and makes your kills feel satisfyingly real. The drawback is that enemy troops don't get much of a chance to showcase their AI. QUOTE]

I disagree; Combine soldiers do suck at combat. In a one-on-one firefight between an untrained, poorly equiped citizen and a fully trained, heavily armed, biomechanically improved Combine soldier, the citizen will always win. Citizens have better aim, more health and the ability to use medkits and pick up better weapons.
I think this has more to do with game balancing than story however.

Edit: Quote fail :hmph:

 

[Darkside55]

Faulty premise 1 = Combine soldiers suck at combat.

They don't.

Faulty premise 2 = HL1 marines "were much better at combat".

They weren't.

A simple test: turn on God mode in HL1; fight marines.

Repeat this process in HL2 with the Overwatch. You may use Episode 2 if you wish; their AI is still the same.

Stand there and watch them. Just watch them.

One of these enemies will flank, drop grenades and scurry for cover, throw grenades to flush you out, will actively retreat, advance, and take cover behind anything they can from sandbags to doorways to laboratory tabletops.

The other will stand there and shoot at you. Unmoving. Without regard for tactics or cover.

One of these groups will, through their movements, present the illusion of a squad working together. While they're actually not, because of their individual loadouts and the way their tactics work, it gives believability to the fact that they are a cohesive unit trying to exterminate you.

The other will, with no regard to his fellows, stand there and shoot you. If you are in range of other enemies they will also stand there and shoot you. They do nothing but stand and shoot you.

Please try this simple test and then come back to this thread and tell me which group is the marines and which group is the overwatch. Once you have done these two things, please refer to your previous post and still try to backup your former statement.

I'll be waiting.

 

[flamingdts]

Marines can shoot their own men by accident and shoot them to death.

The Half Life difficulty is also significantly different to the later installations. The Grunts in Half Life can take almost a whole clip of SMG and still walk.

Combines are just generally weaker units, but are much more common than the Grunts in Half Life. They need to scale the difficulty and health of every enemy in order to make it more balanced. Imagine if all the regular overwatch soldiers were as tough and ran as fast as Grunts. Not only will you be losing at least 3/4 of your health every battle, but you'll have to chase your enemies down in the open environment.

 

[Laivasse]

*snip*

I haven't had a copy of HL1 around for ages, so I can't test that.

All I've got to draw on is my experience playing through both games, which I've done probably a dozen times apiece. Not only that but in each game I always reload the more enjoyable firefights and play them over and over. As such I can see the dread hand of Darkside hyperbole in your comparison of marines and Overwatch. I've seen equally glowing descriptions of the Overwatch AI from people who've spawned squads of them against rebel NPCs and watched them duke it out.

Neither extreme of description really squares with the reality of playing through a simple SP game of HL1 or HL2 but nevertheless:
Flanking? Overwatch do it. Throw grenades? Obviously. Actively retreat, advance, take cover...? Yep, yep... I know they've done these things when I'm not in God mode, so I don't see what difference God mode should make.

The only thing they don't do from that list is drop grenades and scurry for cover. That's something I'm glad of, since the marines in HL1 did fine at the grenade dropping bit, but all too often the pathfinding would then jazz out and the 'scurrying for cover' would consist of squatting down in open space 3 feet from their own grenade, while you as the player laughed and hosed them with bullets.

So, then what about 'stand there and shoot you, unmoving'? Funny you should say that because my most distinctive memory of fighting the marines in HL1 is of my unloading the better part of an smg clip into one guy's naked face, while he squatted down unmoving, shooting me with nothing more than a confused stare. He then said 'argh..!', stood up and hobbled away as I reloaded. I have many similar memories except with the shotty taking the place of the mp5. Due to Valve's clear choice to give the player a more effective arsenal in HL2, any Combine troop would have dropped like a turd in the same situation. The Combine also retreat when wounded, just like that marine, except they're so easy to kill that it's rare for you to ever to deal them that much damage while still giving them a chance to turn tail. When they do run off, they do it slower, again making them easier to pick off.

Now - the aforementioned wounded HL1 marine, due to his comedically fast rate of movement, might have then made it to cover and been able to run out and take potshots at me. Perhaps he would have dropped a grenade to cower beside. Regardless - he wouldn't be doing it because of his marvellously superior AI, but instead because of his ability to soak up bullets as if he was a giant hill of shit. Some players' reaction to that might be to say 'wow, what a great illusion of a squad working together! It really gives believability to the fact that they are a cohesive unit trying to exterminate me!' Fair enough - everyone appreciates the game in different ways. My own response was to say '**** my worthless weapons, and **** these moronic, impervious meatsacks I'm fighting against'.

I'm not saying the marines are not harder to fight against. However the reason for that is because they're worse at dying, not because they're better at fighting or that they're miracles of AI technology.

Also, maybe you should consider that standing around in God mode is not the best test of singleplayer AI. If you're standing in the open, then every Overwatch soldier with a clear shot at you may indeed just stand and shoot. Why not? Their goal is to kill you and in Hard mode, at least, you'd be dead within a couple of seconds of that. It might look stupid when you're invulnerable, but the game was not designed to be played in God mode.

I disagree; Combine soldiers do suck at combat. In a one-on-one firefight between an untrained, poorly equiped citizen and a fully trained, heavily armed, biomechanically improved Combine soldier, the citizen will always win.

Citizens have better aim, more health and the ability to use medkits and pick up better weapons.
I think this has more to do with game balancing than story however.

You're preaching to the converted if you're saying the rebels should be made weaker than the Combine. But as you say, it's down to game balancing and most of all it's down to their greater health. I'd also point out that HL1 marines could not use medkits or pick up better weapons either. It would likely be extremely confusing/frustrating if any HL enemy could run off and recharge their health, or swap their pistol for a pulse rifle.

 

[Darkside55]

The reason I suggested putting the game into god mode was so that you wouldn't die and could really observe the enemy. That's the only reason. The AI will run its routines normally, so you can see just how much they stand and shoot.

Now, of course when I play through the games and I'm not in there to watch something that could be jeopardized by losing health, I've got god mode off and I'm running through the game blasting enemies. And you know, the thing is, everything you've said the Combine do? I never see it. Sure, they throw the odd grenade, but retreating? Taking cover? Nah. It's on Hard mode too, so...

Now I will say that when GMOD first came out, people would spawn whole squads of Combine and rebels at opposite ends of the default GMOD map and have them go at it, and the Combine showed some good squad tactics. But it was only when they were given enough room to do so. In the actual singleplayer game there's no such opportunity for them to display anything more than STAND and SHOOT.

This was made all the more apparent to me in Episode 2 when, in the little barn you encounter the young advisor, an Overwatch soldier literally stood in the hallway I came through with a shotgun and stood there and blasted me. And I put a couple shots in him, and he was still alive but close to death, and what did he do? He just stood there. He just...STOOD there. Like an idiot. And he shot at me again. (At which point I killed him, because as incredulous as I was and as much as I wanted to see how long he'd carry out that routine, two shotgun blasts at close range hurts)

Metrocops in HL2 just standing there while you shoot them. Overwatch soldiers in plain sight not even going for cover. Elites charging at you head on. It's ridiculous to watch these guys. Yes, often the HECU marines would just stand there soaking up fire as well, but that wasn't the only thing they could do. They'd often shout, "SHIT!" and then crouch-run away from you if you were killing them.

Now, HL1, it's too bad you don't have a copy of it anymore--and frankly I must ask why; it's only like $5--but I make it a point to replay HL1 every few months a year. I'll play HL1, and maybe OpFor, and maaaaybe Blue Shift. But I go through HL1 a lot. A whole lot. And you know, being able to play HL1 and go to a level like Surface Tension or On A Rail, and then being able to go and play Nova Prospekt or Urban Flight or Under the Radar, and just play through these levels in comparison watching what the enemies do, I'm telling you man...the Overwatch are goddamned stupid. Just...stupid.

Imagine if all the regular overwatch soldiers were as tough and ran as fast as Grunts. Not only will you be losing at least 3/4 of your health every battle, but you'll have to chase your enemies down in the open environment.

What's the matter, Dr. Freeman? Too hard for you?

 

[Laivasse]

I just checked and I do own a copy of HL:Source on Steam somehow. I've just never known to download it. This discussion has given me the impetus to give HL1 its first rerun in a long time, so I'll be installing it sooner or later.

I don't really know what to say about you not experiencing very diverse behaviour from enemies in HL2. I just know I've had some good and memorable firefights with them. I've been flanked, usually by shotgun troops running up beside me while my attention's been diverted. For examples of cover, I've often been impressed by one section - in either Follow Freeman or Anticitizen One - where you're in an apartment corridor and a bunch of metrocops are holed up in the rooms to either side, strafing in and out of the doorways shooting at you. If you meant more like ducking behind stuff, I can't recall any clear examples but I'm sure I've seen it.

I've had them retreat after taking heavy damage; I've even had a couple hide from me. On two occasions that I can clearly recall, I've dealt enough damage that a soldier will run off and then hole up somewhere, making no effort to re-engage me. I found them hiding in random and fairly stupid spots, but with one of them I was surprised and he took me out due to my own low health. Generally speaking, though, it's kind of a moronic and ineffective tactic - I only mention it here as an example of the diversity of behaviour you often don't get to see due to Freeman's devastating arsenal.

Likewise I've had some bad firefights with them - most often when I bring all my weaponry to bear. Nail a couple to the wall with the crossbow, plug one in the head with the revolver, then alt-fire-shotty a couple more - it's all over in 10 seconds with no tactics to be seen. Granted, it's not the most wonderful thing to have to consciously go easy on the enemies in order to get the best out of them, but I just don't get the sense that it's the fault of the AI. I also remember doing a similar thing in HL1; I would consciously try not to gib the marines because limiting myself to killing them with bullets produced much more enjoyable fights.

 

[Darkside55]

I don't know why I never see that behavior. It kinda bums me out.

I think perhaps the solution to the problem is to make the Combine tougher and/or have them perform these special AI movements sooner and more often.

And yes go install HL:S.

 

[Laivasse]

Like I say, I often reload certain firefights over and over -like the one at the forcefield bridge/gas station, which is where I had one guy hide from me - until they produce an outcome which is sufficiently cinematic or comedic... Then I carry on with the game and end up completing it in 10x the amount of time it takes most people. I did it all the time in HL1 as well, such as the bit where the APC comes crashing through the warehouse wall and it's marines vs. grunts vs. Freeman. It's probably a sign of bad mental health, but I doubt I'd see as much cool stuff if I didn't do it.

It just seems to me that the ease with which the Combine can be taken down is a big obstacle to them getting a chance to show their stuff. Typically, once you turn your attention on an Overwatch grunt, unless he's very far away you don't switch your attention from him until he goes down, which rarely takes long. For a grunt to run up, take a load of punishment, then have enough time to turn and run away is very rare. I'm pretty sure the moment of calculation where they decide 'IT HURTS NOW RUN AWAY' is not instantaneous either; I swear I've shot a few in the teeth in the motionless instant they were trying to figure out how to save themselves. That kind of decision-making process would also account for some of my recollections of HL1, where the wounded grunts would just sit and stare at me for a second before running off.

Anyway, perhaps the health could be beefed up or ammo made more scarce, but I think Valve have more or less the right idea with sequences like the assault on White Forest Inn. If the Combine go down too easy, just chuck more and more at us. It's no coincidence that that's one of the best parts of Episode 2, and that Entanglement's one of my favourite parts of HL2.

As for their lack of tactics being some kind of canonical point about their motivation... meeeeh.

EDIT: I've meditated a bit on that last point and I will say this - there are some parts of HL2 where it does make a lot of narrative sense for CP/Overwatch to appear as if they're retarded kamikazes. In Route Canal you've got cops scrambling and rushing Freeman in slightly panicky and none-too-organised groups. It somehow seems to make a lot of sense, from the perspective of narrative momentum, that Freeman should go through them like a- holy shit, I really was just about to type 'combine harvester' with no pun intended.

Then you've got the citadel assault, where Freeman is basically a god and their only hope of bringing him down is having him trip over a pile of their corpses.

Even at Nova Prospekt, Freeman has a little pet army with him, and yet again having the Overwatch look like hopeless cannon fodder just seems to make sense.

But yeah... I think it's very much a matter of the power of your arsenal, convenient explosive barrel placement, and the improbable situations Freeman finds himself in, rather than a bad reflection on the AI.

 

[Darkside55]

Like I say, I often reload certain firefights over and over -like the one at the forcefield bridge/gas station, which is where I had one guy hide from me - until they produce an outcome which is sufficiently cinematic or comedic

Dude, we do the same thing; I always seem to be saying, "That looked cool, but I can do better."

A lot of people quicksave before a firefight and then quickload if they wasted too much ammo or took too much damage. I quickload if something could be done in a much cooler fashion.

 

[Laivasse]

Precisely the same here. I don't feel like I've earned my passage to the next part of the game until there's an Overwatch corpse dangling from a tree or similar.