Theres a Bush in Europe.

[gh0st]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/02/20/bush.europe/index.html

Heres how I feel. Many europeans hate America. Many Americans hate Europeans. But people who hold Europe up as a model, as something superior to the US always fail to mention that European nations were only able to create the grossly wasteful social systems they have, because they never had to invest in protection, and their defense budgets. But why? Is it because they are a naturally more peaceful people, unafraid of conflict? No - the stability they enjoy now was imposed upon them, by the US and the USSR. Europe, who cheerfully led us into the two worst wars in human history now claims to be a model of civilization and culture - because they benefitted from what we imposed upon them. Both the Soviets and the US clamped down, and essentially turned it into the politically irrelevant place it is today. Europe has been removed from the world picture. Nobody thinks Europe matters, except for Europeans.*

Europe is like the senile old man, whom we stand up when he enters the room, but Europe is nothing more than a yes man for America and the other global players. This isnt a flagrant Europe bashing thread (well, it sort of is), and while I sort of see the causes for us wanting to 'mend relations', I also cant help but see the folly of his trip and its intentions.

*Dont see this as an umbrella statement, for the most part countries like the UK arent included in this, but many other countries/demographics are.

 

[No Limit]

The US is better than Europe

Nobody thinks Europe matters

I read a post like this and then I wonder why Europe thinks this entire country is arrogant. :thumbs:

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

We need to shift our attention to Asia. Economically, politically, and militiarily, that region holds more sway and requires more of our attention.

 

[gh0st]

We need to shift our attention to Asia. Economically, politically, and militiarily, that region holds more sway and requires more of our attention.

Yeah, sort of the conclusion I was looking for people to draw.

I read a post like this and then I wonder why Europe thinks this entire country is arrogant. :thumbs:

No, I simply dont care if they dont like me. They are irrelevant politically, no purpose is served by bush going over there.

 

[No Limit]

No, I simply dont care if they dont like me. They are irrelevant politically, no purpose is served by bush going over there.

Again, I will quote myself because again it applies here:

I read a post like this and then I wonder why Europe thinks this entire country is arrogant. :thumbs:

 

[gh0st]

I read a post like this and then I wonder why Europe thinks this entire country is arrogant. :thumbs:

And they arent arrogant at all? Youre so quick to blame America for someone elses problems, but are you really so blind as to see the arrogance coming from the other side of the pond too?

 

[el Chi]

No, I simply dont care if they dont like me.

Well, that's handy.

 

[gh0st]

Well, that's handy.

Selective quoting much?

 

[el Chi]

I read a post like this and then I wonder why Europe thinks this entire country is arrogant. :thumbs:

No, I simply dont care if they dont like me. They are irrelevant politically, no purpose is served by bush going over there.

Well, that's handy.

Selective quoting much?

Is that better?

 

[gh0st]

Is that better?

No, it ignores context. If you think this trip is important please tell me why.

 

[No Limit]

No, it ignores context. If you think this trip is important please tell me why.

Do you honestly not understand how arrogant you sound right now? Europe is one of our most important allies right now.

 

[bliink]

Ahem
* Points to her post here, where it is said that childish behaviour is not a thing one would engage in if one were interested in remaining un-banned from the site

* Points at everyone in here

 

[Edcrab]

Bush is clearly just doing this for the obvious reason- to show that America is part of the international community. That sounds fairly reasonable to me.

People are entitled to stick to a "we should ignore them because I don't care about their opinions" attitude if they want to, of course.

 

[gh0st]

well not really, only england is, france dont count... who else is their really? i'm not a basher of europe, but i sorta agree w/ ghost but not to the same extent.

I'm not bashing europe, I actually love the place, but their politics are reviling. My point is that europe doesnt constitute the "world community" and that this trip is a wasted cause, as their leaders own arrogance wont permit them to find common ground with the US (unless its Syria, and imminant threat to Europe).

 

[Edcrab]

America does share this planet with the rest of us. Even with Asia (and the for-some-reason-excluded Britian) maintaining all social and economic links, the "loss" of a European connection would hardly be beneficial for the States.

As for Europe benefiting from American donations- America did too. They became a super power because Britain and Germany, to be blunt, ****ed themselves over, leaving only the US and USSR to reign. We are still paying you a steady (if minuscule, considering our current regeneration) trickle of debt alleviation repayments, because we accepted a hell of a lot of money post war. In the long term, America did very well out of that act of kindness, so I don't like the attitude that Europe owes America anything.

Hell, you could start talking about how the Pilgrim Fathers, Native-butcherers that they were, were European, if you want to take the concept of "debt" that far back.

 

[gh0st]

America does share this planet with the rest of us. Even with Asia (and the for-some-reason-excluded Britian) maintaining all social and economic links, the "loss" of a European connection would hardly be beneficial for the States.

Who is advocating losing our connection? My point is this trip is worthless, and a waste of time!

As for Europe benefiting from American reparations- America did too. They became a super power because Britain and Germany, to be blunt, ****ed themselves over, leaving only the US and USSR to reign. We are still paying you a steady (if minuscule, considering our current regeneration) trickle of debt alleviation repayments, because we accepted a hell of a lot of money post war. In the long term, America did very well out of that act of kindness, so I don't like the attitude that Europe owes America anything.

Who is talking about reparations? I never said anything about you needing to give us anything. This is totally irrelevant, I'm not sure what you hope to prove here. And no, us losing 400,000 people is not doing very well. And I never said you owe us anything, quit putting words in my mouth.

Hell, you could start talking about how the Pilgrim Fathers, Native-butcherers that they were, were European, if you want to take the concept of "debt" that far back.

American settlers came from a lot of places, you think we owe you for beating you in a war? You are taking this waaayy too far back.

 

[Edcrab]

Putting words into your mouth?

No - the stability they enjoy now was imposed upon them, by the US and the USSR. Europe, who cheerfully led us into the two worst wars in human history now claims to be a model of civilization and culture - because they benefitted from what we imposed upon them. Both the Soviets and the US clamped down, and essentially turned it into the politically irrelevant place it is today. Europe has been removed from the world picture. Nobody thinks Europe matters, except for Europeans.

I think I made a fair interpretation. The political stability the US and USSR "imposed" came from monetary funds and social support- so no, I'm not expanding on something you've never mentioned.

As for losing the connection, surely you realise that ignoring Europe- i.e., stopping the "pointless" visits that all our politicians indulge in- will cause utter stagnation? They're purely a charade that every nation mimes out periodically, because if all world leaders shared your outspoken attitude to the meaningless nature of it all we'd encourage a certain degree of apathy...

 

[gh0st]

I think I made a fair interpretation. The political stability the US and USSR "imposed" came from monetary funds and social support- so no, I'm not expanding on something you've never mentioned.

Far more was imposed than monetary funds, but this isnt the gist of the argument, and shouldnt be taken as such.

As for losing the connection, surely you realise that ignoring Europe- i.e., stopping the "pointless" visits that all our politicians indulge in- will cause utter stagnation? They're purely a charade that every nation mimes out periodically, because if all world leaders shared your outspoken attitude to the meaningless nature of it all we'd encourage a certain degree of apathy...

It wont cause utter stagnation. I believe in a European-American relationship, I just dont see why anything will change with this visit.

 

[Edcrab]

Ah, so we're concentrating on your final point rather than the idea that past nurturing rendered Europe politically infertile, gotcha.

This arguement seems moot since I've made my point and you clearly don't disagree with my stance quite as intensely as I first thought- I too agree that the constant circle of "situation relevant" political visits is quite tiresome and ultimately needless.

However, it's a tradition, something our countries have kept up for decades as a way of saying "hey, we're still here, we haven't tried to kill each other since the last time and we're going to smile into the camera then argue over the same old crap behind closed doors".

Bluntly, I can understand and respect how you consider such machinations futile, I just resented the idea that any country could snub another outright due to past aid.

 

[CptStern]

fiction:

"Many europeans hate America."

truth: many europeans hate american foreign policy

most europeans (from my experience ..I'm second generation european) are actively involved in politics ...it's actually quite embarrassing how involved they are in comparison to north americans ..so most europeans are very much aware of american's foreign policy ..and not just because of the war ..europeans have always taken a vested interest in the world around them politically

 

[KoreBolteR]

fiction:

"Many europeans hate America."

truth: many europeans hate american foreign policy

most europeans (from my experience ..I'm second generation european) are actively involved in politics ...it's actually quite embarrassing how involved they are in comparison to north americans ..so most europeans are very much aware of american's foreign policy ..and not just because of the war ..europeans have always taken a vested interest in the world around them politically

thanks cpt :E your so kind, lol

 

[gh0st]

fiction:

"Many europeans hate America."

truth: many europeans hate american foreign policy

most europeans (from my experience ..I'm second generation european) are actively involved in politics ...it's actually quite embarrassing how involved they are in comparison to north americans ..so most europeans are very much aware of american's foreign policy ..and not just because of the war ..europeans have always taken a vested interest in the world around them politically

Does that mean that you like me :imu:

 

[CptStern]

no ....

 

[Edcrab]

That's just mean! I don't know how gh0st can recover from a reply like that! Your savvy wit seared the flesh from his bones!

You've crushed my gentle spirit, too. Think of the collateral!

 

[CptStern]

dont jump into the fire if you cant handle the heat :thumbs:


..I'm, like, some witty scathing searing irony kinda guy so you'd better watch out cuz I may crush you with my brain :cheese:

 

[Kangy]

Gh0st, you're being a little silly here. The comment on Europe being an old man whom you stand up for is based on what? Europe is still being built. Old Soviet nations join up to the EU, new policies are being made to ensure economic freedom and success within the EU. The EU concept itself.

I think you're just being dismissive and upset. Heck, we've been around so long that we realise being ultra-conservative just doesn't work out too often, and that helping out our fellow countrymen is really important.

Oh, and Europeans don't hate America. I think there's just a feeling that Bush seems to represent your ignorance and arrogance. He'll (his friends and supporters) encourage hatred of us when we don't want to go to war (why would we? what immediate threat was Iraq to anyone?) without a bit of actual proof that the world found together, but when Iraq needs rebuilding... well, suddenly it's all about democracy.

 

[gh0st]

Gh0st, you're being a little silly here. The comment on Europe being an old man whom you stand up for is based on what? Europe is still being built. Old Soviet nations join up to the EU, new policies are being made to ensure economic freedom and success within the EU. The EU concept itself.

Right, all that is built upon what the USSR and we imposed upon you. Its not of your own doing. Europe is politically as senile as you can get, they have virtually no voice in global affairs any more. The EU is their helms deep of respect, and though things are improving economically for you all, you find little time to share that success with the world.

I think you're just being dismissive and upset. Heck, we've been around so long that we realise being ultra-conservative just doesn't work out too often, and that helping out our fellow countrymen is really important.

Im not ultra conservative, im bashing the fanatic liberalism that thrives in europe. And what europe has become is hardly a good thing.

Oh, and Europeans don't hate America. I think there's just a feeling that Bush seems to represent your ignorance and arrogance. He'll encourage hatred of us when we don't want to go to war (why would we? what immediate threat was Iraq to anyone?) without a bit of actual proof that the world found together, but when Iraq needs rebuilding... well, suddenly it's all about democracy.

Hm. Europe wants to stay out of iraq war because of vested interested (oops, oil for food) in iraq. Hmmmmm. Europe wants to be a part of reconstruction after we have done most of the dirty work. The "world" (which you define as europe, bless your heart) FOUND that there were WMD's; ironic given the fact that our intelligence was based of the UK's, Russia, and other european nations intelligence.

 

[Tr0n]

The "world" (which you define as europe, bless your heart) FOUND that there were WMD's; ironic given the fact that our intelligence was based of the UK's, Russia, and other european nations intelligence.

Don't you think it's pretty bad that we have to base our nations intelligence mainly on other countries intelligence?

 

[gh0st]

Don't you think it's pretty bad that we have to base our nations intelligence mainly on other countries intelligence?

Wouldnt you think it would be bad we didnt listen to them and he nuked the shit out of some city? Give one good reason we shouldnt listen to a 1st world nations intelligence. Especially coming from our "allies".

 

[Tr0n]

Wouldnt you think it would be bad we didnt listen to them and he nuked the shit out of some city? Give one good reason we shouldnt listen to a 1st world nations intelligence. Especially coming from our "allies".

As my 8th grade teacher once put it...Nations don't have allies only interest.

He didn't have nukes and if he would have used them we would have used ours.

So since it didn't happen it doesn't matter...the fact is it shows how much our intelligence agencies are lacking in funding and resources.

 

[Sloth]

Point one:
If iraq had WMD's they woldn't have been able to "bomb" a city, only to be surface-surface nukes, ie suicide bomber, etc.

Point two:
EU is an awsome act of Europe, distancing it's need of America.

Point three:
Did you mention "Dirty Work" about Iraq, mmhmm. "Inverviews" Anyone Point closed.

 

[Razor]

Yeah, sort of the conclusion I was looking for people to draw.


No, I simply dont care if they dont like me. They are irrelevant politically, no purpose is served by bush going over there.

You might not think Europe matters, but a heck of a lot of people in America would completely disagree with you, don't be such an idiot.

 

[Septih]

Of course the visit is damn pointless, Blair just wants Bush to sign up for the kyoto treaty and Bush just wants to look good but can't be bothered to do anything for Blair .

one point though. If europe is politically senile, how come it makes up 4 of the G7, hardly a politically inactive organisation?

 

[Sprafa]

Reality call. European politics are ****ed up. But we do have one of the most equalitarian and balanced (and therefore, crime-free) systems in the World.

We made the EU for the clear purpose of challenging the US whenever we felt like it and was in our interests, so damn, we're using it right so far.

Just because you dissaprove the European point of view doesn't mean you should bash it like that. Everyone does what's in their interests, Iraq wasn't charity and your Republicans should get a grip on it.

We're not going to do Iraq, end of story. Keep your little "beacon of democracy" for yourselves

 

[The Monkey]

You can't just speak of Europe like it's one country. I feel very little incommon with, say, Italy or Turkey. The EU will help bringing the countries in Europe together, but we're still very far from uniting. But if we are to stand up against the US and Asia we must work together like a union.

 

[Sprafa]

You can't just speak of Europe like it's one country. I feel very little incommon with, say, Italy or Turkey. The EU will help bringing the countries in Europe together, but we're still very far from uniting. But if we are to stand up against the US and Asia we must work together like a union.

I'd say China alone can take us all and our Union :\

 

[The Monkey]

I'd say China alone can take us all and our Union :\

Are you talking about their army or their trade?

 

[Sprafa]

Are you talking about their army or their trade?

both.


6 caratchers ?
the limit's down

 

[Tr0n]

Edit: Nope it's still 6 char.

 

[Sprafa]

it used to be 10