Who were the bad guys in Star Wars?

interesting, though it looks like someone is reading too much into a movie
 
Darth Vader was definately the good guy, the Rebels used Leia to seduce men to their course, even her own brother was seduced by her. Disgusting.
 
actually the Emperials have sooo many archtypal similarities to fascist Italians/German
(Nazis)
 
bAbYhEaDcRaB said:
actually the Emperials have sooo many archtypal similarities to fascist Italians/German
(Nazis)
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And here was me thinking they were all English.
 
The Imperials were mostly speciesist thugs :P. Oh, and amoral technocrats...
 
Brian Damage said:
The Imperials were mostly speciesist thugs :P. Oh, and amoral technocrats...
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Yeah, but Thrawn managed to become a Grand Admiral. I didn't seem much Specism in the trilogy. Sounds like a prejuice that they don't deserve. A bit like saying everyone from Southern US is racist. It's not true.
 
To pull an instance out of the air, Chewbacca was originally in a wookie-specific work camp. And many at the top were opposed to Thrawn getting such a high rank... They may not necessarily have been speciesist individually, but their doctrine was...
 
The Empire was specist.
Thrawn was a rare case.
They built concentration camps everywhere, for the "lesser" species.
The Ewoks just managed to stay out of the way of the Empire.


The tatics used by the Rebels were normal to assymetric warfare.
 
The rebels in the recent prequels are not the same rebels as the ones in the original movies.
 
Brian Damage said:
The rebels in the recent prequels are not the same rebels as the ones in the original movies.
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Well, the republic turns into the empire and the "good guys" of the republic flee to the separatists which turn into rebels.
 
I'm not sure that's the way it's going to happen... I don't think such a grand thing as the Rebellion could arise from nasty little buggers like those Nemoidians...
 
Oh, don't worry, I can assure you that you are.

Just like aaaalllllllllllllll the rest of uuuuuuusssssssssssss...
 
Has everyone read this guy:
http://www.davidbrin.com/starwarsarticle1.html

He makes a lot of interesting observations about the screwed up moral symbols and plot in the Star Wars series, and even suggests a way it could be saved. He points out things like that Yoda, despite being portrayed a sage know it all, is wrong about pretty much everything. And that the idea "don't get angry at evil or else you'll become evil" is a particularly pernicious concept. An interesting read.
 
Its been awhile since I saw episode 2, but wasn't it near the end that those "rebels" were seen with plans of building the death star? If thats the case then they certainly are not the same rebels as the ones in episodes 4,5, and 6.
 
I think Darth Vader was the bad guy.
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I'd say the giant Hitler helmet and him running about murdering people is probably the biggest clue we have on that score. :)
 
it's missing the point. the idea that SW is putting forward is that one should not let their anger control them.
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That might be a useful lesson. But that isn't what Jedi seems to be implying. It's implying that if Luke kills the Emporer or Vader, becomes angry at evil, then he will suddenly be cruel and evil to everyone like Vader and its a false victory. But that doesn't make any sense. As Brin points out, real soldiers do get angry at evil: they do their job and kill the enemy, and what keeps them from becoming evil is the fact that a) anger at evil people doesn't make a person cruel to everyone and b) they have friends and family that can help them through the trauma of what they had to do for the good of the world.

And that isn't the only subject that Brin points out. Some other interesting ones:
-Yoda is supposed to be the big know-it-all figure in touch with the force. Yet he is wrong about just about everything, particularly when he tells Luke he must not go to save his friends. Luke does go, saves most of his friends, and things turn out pretty good!
-In both Jedi and Menace, there are huge futility plots that most people don't notice at first. In Jedi, none of the actions of any of the "force" people make a bit of difference to the outcome of the big final battle. Luke's entire journey to the Death Star is wholly personal one: his struggle there would have made no difference at all to the destruction of the Death Star and the death of the Emporer, all of which would have happened anyway whether he went or not. Menace is worse: EVERYTHING the good guys do in the end of that movie is COMPLETELY for nothing. That is, if they didn't do anything, things would have worked out as good or better. All the gungans died for nothing, and the struggle of the Jedi against Maul accomplishes nothing at all other than to trade Qui-Gon's life to attain Maul's death (in fact, given the nature of Palpatine's plot, it doesn't even really make sense that Maul is sent to kill the Princess in the first place since Palpatine WANTS her to make it to the Senate)- because Palpatine was going to come save the day at the end anyway. They all could have stayed home, and they'd all still be alive and the planet saved regardless.
 
Apos said:
As Brin points out, real soldiers do get angry at evil: they do their job and kill the enemy, and what keeps them from becoming evil is the fact that a) anger at evil people doesn't make a person cruel to everyone and b) they have friends and family that can help them through the trauma of what they had to do for the good of the world.
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1) read my counter-example above. not all soldiers are angry at their enemies, much less asociate them with "evil".
2) this is extending things beyond the very simplistic types in SW, but the one thing that a person can control is themselves. obi-wan was concerend about luke because he knew what happened to his father. the mythology of lineages is pretty substantial in SW, which makes sense since it's based on arthurian legends and such. anikan (sp?) was consumed by his hatred, so the jedi are concerned that his 'flesh and blood' maybe be subject to the same weakness.

but certainly, one does not need to assume that the jedi are infaliable. and this brings me to the rest of your post:
Apos said:
And that isn't the only subject that Brin points out. Some other interesting ones:
Click to expand...
perhaps, but i don't really care about the rest of it :) (note the last sentance in my last post ;)). also, note that while it appears that yoda and the rest of the ''know-it-alls' in the jedi council (or whatever it is) appear to be wrong/inept often within the context of the films, at the end things are put "right" aren't they? it is impossible to say whether they could have been done better or not, however one can observe that 'good' is ultimately victorious. perhaps yoda's actions are purposefully not entirely indicative of his knowledge.
 
read my counter-example above. not all soldiers are angry at their enemies, much less asociate them with "evil".
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But that's irrelevant, and the example somewhat overblown. The reality is that soldiers can and are angry at evil: that's why they fight it. But they don't magically transform into evil people just because they got angry at Hitler.

and this brings me to the rest of your post:
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I think you missed the point, which was not that the Jedi are meant to be infaliable and then aren't, but rather that most people forget/don't even notice that it turns out that Yoda was completely wrong about Luke going to save his friends or that all the efforts of the heroes in Menace are completely pointless. They all should have just stayed home and played Xbox, and things would have turned out as good or better. :)

Did you actually read his actual articles, of just his responses to the articles (which would seem a little discombobulated without having read the articles)
 
I still can't understand how many people refuse to believe that Palpatine/the Emperor/Darth Sidious are the same goddamn person.

Star Wars rocketh.
 
Eejit said:
Palpatine/the Emperor/Darth Sidious are the same goddamn person.
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Lucas said they were the same person long ago......
 
@Apos
i just read his responses. i'm not nearly interested enough to read the articles. for me, it's just a movie like any other, and it hardly informs my notions of justice (or w/e the author is fumed about) much for me to question it's insideous intent or whatever.

again, i don't see the comparison to hitler being at all relevant. as simply a social issue, one can take the warnings of the jedi exactly as i presented them above: control of ones own self is important above all things. it's a philosophical stance that one doesn't have to agree with, but 'evil' is somewhat beside the point. perhaps not everyone is consumed by their hatred of 'evil', but then again, not everyone matters to the universe (or plot of the movies) as much as a super-powerful jedi, do they?

and you can not say that the heros in menace should have done anything different. the only fact we have is that, in the end, it all turned out pretty well, with luke dancing with his redeemed dead father on endor.. i mean, does it get any better? because of this result of the whole sequence of events/actions, i don't see how exactly you can argue that yoda was wrong at all, ever. besides, it would have been a boring movie if the jedi were omniscient ;)
 
and you can not say that the heros in menace should have done anything different.
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No no, the point is just that, in retrospect, you realize that all the efforts of the heroes in that film were completely futile. Thousands of people died for nothing at all. That's not a complaint, it's just sort of depressing.

in the end, it all turned out pretty well, with luke dancing with his redeemed dead father on endor
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Well sure, after decades of galatic oppresion, the murder of billions of lives, the death of almost the entire jedi order, :)
 
Apos said:
No no, the point is just that, in retrospect, you realize that all the efforts of the heroes in that film were completely futile. Thousands of people died for nothing at all. That's not a complaint, it's just sort of depressing.

Well sure, after decades of galatic oppresion, the murder of billions of lives, the death of almost the entire jedi order, :)
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we seem to just have two different perspectives on this. to me, judging the efforts of the heros in menace as futile is short-sighted. maybe futile for that film, maybe even for the primary actors involved. but for the big-picture propagation of "goodness" it seems that the ends justify the means. and once again, it is impossible to say that things could have been accomplished any more easily, regardless of how many people died.
 
Razor said:
Darth Vader was definately the good guy, the Rebels used Leia to seduce men to their course, even her own brother was seduced by her. Disgusting.
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"Hey, those jews are commiting incest! UP IN ARMS BROTHERS!!"

That's exactly how it f***ing happened :flame:
 
How about the good guys in the Matrix?

were the machines that bad giving us a better world for a little power?
 
Sprafa said:
How about the good guys in the Matrix?

were the machines that bad giving us a better world for a little power?
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No, not really.. If this world was fake or something (which I highly doubt) I sure don't want to know about it.
 
but for the big-picture propagation of "goodness" it seems that the ends justify the means.
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But the ends were Palpatine's ends. He manipulated everyone and won, ensuring his rise to power. Again: you don't find it the least bit tragic that all the people who died fighting at the end of the film died completely in vain? That if they had just not fought at all, the same result would have come about?
 
Apos said:
But the ends were Palpatine's ends. He manipulated everyone and won, ensuring his rise to power. Again: you don't find it the least bit tragic that all the people who died fighting at the end of the film died completely in vain? That if they had just not fought at all, the same result would have come about?
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1) palpatine is defeated in the end.
2) tragedy has nothing to do with it. you can't say that the same result would have happened if all those people had not died. it's just impossible to conclude that. all you can say is that what happened happened, and in the end, 'good' wins.
 
Sprafa said:
How about the good guys in the Matrix?

were the machines that bad giving us a better world for a little power?
Click to expand...
the value of being awake is the intrisic value of freedom. that's what the plot's impetus relies on.
 
Wow...you know i used to like Starwars but after reading some of this i can now see i was wrong...Obviously a few plot mistakes make the films a hideous story that shouldn't see daylight.

Anyway...to be a little more serious. Do you really need to read into a the film that much? Can't it be left alone as just something thats entertaining?
 
Farrowlesparrow said:
Wow...you know i used to like Starwars but after reading some of this i can now see i was wrong...Obviously a few plot mistakes make the films a hideous story that shouldn't see daylight.

Anyway...to be a little more serious. Do you really need to read into a the film that much? Can't it be left alone as just something thats entertaining?
Click to expand...


something as great and as popular as Star Wars will naturally attract criticism of any kind, read: Microsoft.
 
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