Abortion

[CptStern]

Its a baby quite often capable of surviving outside the womb.

wrong, my son was born pre-mature, without an incubator I wouldnt be a father today ...even now at the age of 16 months he couldnt survive on his own

 

[gh0st]

yeh the embryo does, but the baby doesnt.
it obviously is an emotional thing to do, but if the mother doesnt want to go through 9 months of pregnancy, its her choice!!. as long as she makes the decision early.

Happy happy happy abortions. Sure its her choice, hopefully she makes the right one which is, uh, not murdering children.

then i suggest people invent something that has a 100% succesful sex session, without having worries in your mind about having a baby. (without doing any operations that is).

Birth control pill. Its free here. Then some idiots will be getting STDs and complaining about those.

if they were killing another persons embryo, i'd understand. but its thier own!

Its not their own. Its a function of 2 peoples cells, which just so happen to live in one of them. The thing itself is a seperate part, just connected.

jesus , its the female whos going to have to go through this traumatic time. shall she ruin her life, or have a legal choice of stopping her depression or whatever. obviously the distressed woman would want to get rid of the embryo. and not go through with something that could end up with herself committing suicide. (to the extreme)

Getting old here. It shouldnt be her life to throw away, people should respect it for what it is. IE Life.

wrong, my son was born pre-mature, without an incubator I wouldnt be a father today ...even now at the age of 16 months he couldnt survive on his own

Glad things worked out for your kid. I think the point he's making is that it COULD survive. Were not talking about neolithic times here, were assuming it has basic medical care.

 

[CptStern]

no I dont think it could ..seriously ..maybe a few minutes but that's it

 

[gh0st]

no I dont think it could ..seriously ..maybe a few minutes but that's it

If its a fetus then no, it wouldnt. I think were all against partial birth abortions so lets just strike that from the topic.

 

[KoreBolteR]

wrong, my son was born pre-mature, without an incubator I wouldnt be a father today ...even now at the age of 16 months he couldnt survive on his own

nice to hear . im glad things worked for you Stern

thank god for the incubator!!!!!!woohoo.


....whats an incubator?

 

[CptStern]

If its a fetus then no, it wouldnt. I think were all against partial birth abortions so lets just strike that from the topic.

even at 8 months (in womb) it wouldnt survive on it's own

 

[gh0st]

even at 8 months (in womb) it wouldnt survive on it's own

Yeah I know thats why I'm saying it shoudnt be aborted. Wait.. what are we talking about? I dont think I'm disagreeing with you here.

 

[CptStern]

nice to hear . im glad things worked for you Stern

thank god for the incubator!!!!!!woohoo.


....whats an incubator?

heh, not my kid

gh0st: calanen said something about the fetus being able to survive on it's own

 

[DarkStar]

even at 8 months (in womb) it wouldnt survive on it's own

I'm pretty sure at 8 months it can survive.

There are premature babies born a month early all the time.

 

[KoreBolteR]

Happy happy happy abortions. Sure its her choice, hopefully she makes the right one which is, uh, not murdering children..

she is not murdering children... it is Embryos.

Its not their own. Its a function of 2 peoples cells, which just so happen to live in one of them. The thing itself is a seperate part, just connected. .

alright then, what if these '2 people' (owners of the cells), came to the decision to have an abortion.. its thier embryo, no-one elses!

 

[CptStern]

I'm pretty sure at 8 months it can survive.

There are premature babies born a month early all the time.

yes I know ...read bottom of page 3

 

[gh0st]

she is not murdering children... it is Embryos.

If you dig up a seed will it turn into a tree? You should never have to abort a fetus, unless its for health reasons directly related to the mother living or dying it shouldnt be done ever period. thats just my opinion, obviously I'm having no impact on yours so lets just agree to disagree this is getting tiring.

alright then, what if these '2 people' (owners of the cells), came to the decision to have an abortion.. its thier embryo, no-one elses!

No, it would still be destroying the (to be, whatever) childs life, which is something I personally would never do and shouldnt be done in general because its.. wrong? Hard to believe people justify this.

 

[Calanen]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calanen
Its a baby quite often capable of surviving outside the womb.

wrong, my son was born pre-mature, without an incubator I wouldnt be a father today ...even now at the age of 16 months he couldnt survive on his own

Please read what I said. I did not say 'Survive on its OWN outside the womb' hell babies born full term cannot survive on their OWN. I said capable of surviving outside the womb....'

So not wrong Stern. Please read what I say more carefully.

 

[Calanen]

A girl at my HS got pregnant. She was 14. He boyfriend was a drug addict, an abuser and a aloholic. He

Derailing the thread a bit - but I have been perplexed my whole life on why girls (and often really hot girls) like guys like this.

 

[Calanen]

gh0st: calanen said something about the fetus being able to survive on it's own

No Calanen did not. I said, capable of surviving outside the womb, ie, it is a baby, not a small clump of cells like many pro-abortionists would have u believe.

 

[bliink]

Derailing the thread a bit - but I have been perplexed my whole life on why girls (and often really hot girls) like guys like this.

They have no brains, and want to be cool.

 

[johnmedz]

Derailing the thread a bit - but I have been perplexed my whole life on why girls (and often really hot girls) like guys like this.

well, i noticed this a lot in high school but once i was in college, things changed. Because a university is a place of education, people are there to learn, are paying to learn. I think, and hope, that college girls find a smart guy to be more appealing.

I personally think that an occasional drink, if ur old enough, is a great way to meet people, including females. When drinking becomes more than an occasional thing, i think you probably become less desirable to a female. girls dont like to see weakness like that.

Back to topic, drugs and alcohol at that young of an age is going to lead to pregnancy if you are getting drunk and high together and having unprotected sex. In these situations, i dont think people should just throw away a child because of their own irresponsibility. On the other hand, without a safe place to go, a teen girl could resort to other inhumane means to have an abortion.

I think i would consider myself pro-choice because i respect people's freedoms.
So which are you: Pro-choice or Anti-choice?

 

[MarcoPollo]

Abortions should not be allowed (with a few exceptions)
It was "the woman's right to choose" from the very beggining. The choice to have sex or not. It is that simple. If they decide they weren't ready to have a baby, they shouldn't have had sex.

 

[Razor]

Abortions should only be available to the mothers who have a possibility of running into complications during child birth or later on in the pregnancy that might cause the death of either the baby, or the mother, or both. It should also only be available to where the mother has found out that the baby has serious condition, more mental than physical. Or where the doctors can clearly see that the mother is in no fit state to carry baby, let alone look after it...i.e. some 12 year old slag shagging every guy she sees whilst taking drugs and alcohol, also if the mother is a rape victim.

If a 25 year old wife comes in and says "i don't want this baby" and can't state any medical reasons why not to keep the baby, she should be denied and told that when the baby is born, if she has no interest in being a mother, she should wear protection next time and give the baby up for adoption.

If you're old enough to have sex, you're old enough to give birth. If you don't want a baby, go on the pill and use a condom, or just not have sex.

 

[MarcoPollo]

amen razor

 

[Calanen]

If a 25 year old wife comes in and says "i don't want this baby" and can't state any medical reasons why not to keep the baby, she should be denied and told that when the baby is born, if she has no interest in being a mother, she should wear protection next time and give the baby up for adoption.

And what if she says, Im gonna hang myself if you don't let me get an abortion? Thats just 'Sh_t Happens?'

 

[CptStern]

No Calanen did not. I said, capable of surviving outside the womb, ie, it is a baby, not a small clump of cells like many pro-abortionists would have u believe.

and no it's NOT capable of surviving on it's own outside the womb ..I know first hand

 

[el Chi]

A friend of mine had an abortion and it was an extremely difficult decision for her to make and was far from one of the easiest experiences to deal with. She was in a serious, long-term relationship at the time, and they'd already tried for a child but she'd had a miscarriage, so it's not as if she was the irresponsible slut so many people have decided anyone who has an abortion is.

I've met far fewer women who're pro-life than men. Just an observation for you.

The philosopher Berkley's arguments in favour of abortion:

You wake up one day to find yourself attached via medical tubes, etc. to a world famous violinist. The violinist is in a critical state and needs to share your body, essentially - you have the same blood type or something. Of course, this is an extreme inconvenience to you and it's happened against your will, however if you disconnect him, then he will die. Is it ok for you to disconnect yourself, or does that make you a murderer?


A homeless person breaks into your house, because it's a freezing winter and he'd probably die in the cold. He intends to pose no threat to you or your family, but intends to eat your food, use your beds, your warmth, etc. Does he have the right to do this? Do you have the right to forcibly remove him from your house when you know he'll probably die in the cold? Or are you obliged to keep him there?


Let us suppose that humans actually grow from spores that float in the air. They grow when they take root in carpets, etc. You do not want a child, so to stop this from happening, you get good seals put on your windows and doors so that they won't get in. However, say the seals are faulty somewhat and one does get through, by no fault of your own. Now you have a baby starting to grow that you did not want and took responsible precautions to prevent. You're obliged to put up with that?
You open the door to go to work one day and one gets through - should you put up with that? Of course if that were the case, then the obvious analogical solution would be to never leave the house (ie: abstainence). Doesn't sound like too much fun to me.


Incidentally, Berkley is a woman.

 

[Razor]

A friend of mine had an abortion and it was an extremely difficult decision for her to make and was far from one of the easiest experiences to deal with. She was in a serious, long-term relationship at the time, and they'd already tried for a child but she'd had a miscarriage, so it's not as if she was the irresponsible slut so many people have decided anyone who has an abortion is.

I've met far fewer women who're pro-life than men. Just an observation for you.

The philosopher Berkley's arguments in favour of abortion:

You wake up one day to find yourself attached via medical tubes, etc. to a world famous violinist. The violinist is in a critical state and needs to share your body, essentially - you have the same blood type or something. Of course, this is an extreme inconvenience to you and it's happened against your will, however if you disconnect him, then he will die. Is it ok for you to disconnect yourself, or does that make you a murderer?


A homeless person breaks into your house, because it's a freezing winter and he'd probably die in the cold. He intends to pose no threat to you or your family, but intends to eat your food, use your beds, your warmth, etc. Does he have the right to do this? Do you have the right to forcibly remove him from your house when you know he'll probably die in the cold? Or are you obliged to keep him there?


Let us suppose that humans actually grow from spores that float in the air. They grow when they take root in carpets, etc. You do not want a child, so to stop this from happening, you get good seals put on your windows and doors so that they won't get in. However, say the seals are faulty somewhat and one does get through, by no fault of your own. Now you have a baby starting to grow that you did not want and took responsible precautions to prevent. You're obliged to put up with that?
You open the door to go to work one day and one gets through - should you put up with that? Of course if that were the case, then the obvious analogical solution would be to never leave the house (ie: abstainence). Doesn't sound like too much fun to me.


Incidentally, Berkley is a woman.

Philosopher Berkeley has absolutely no idea what the heck she is talking about. Babies grow in carpets, waking up and finding yourself attached to a violinist...hmmm...ok.

Anyway, to make a baby, you have sex. If you don't want to have a baby, you use a contraceptive, good idea to double it up i.e. using a condom and a pill, or you just don't have sex, it isn't that difficult not to have sex. And what is stopping a pregnant woman with a completely healthly little faetus inside her, carrying it to term and giving it a chance to live with a family that would do anything for a baby but can't have one for whatever reason.

 

[GhostFox]

EDIT: Please do not address this post here. Instead go and vote in the poll thread.


Here is a little survey.

A 22 year old woman is single, just starting her career which requires her to work 60 hours a week, and they pay isn't great yet. Going out with her friends is a big part of her life. She is a constantly busy woman between her personal and professional life.

She wants an abortion. The reasons are simple.

1)She does not have the time to raise a child. It would negatively impact her career too much.

2)She does not have a husband to help with the duties. It is too much responsibility on her own.

3)She cannot afford it. Children are expensive, and there is no way she can maintain her lifestyle with a child.

4) It would ruin her social life. Instead of going out with her friends a few times a week, she would be stuck at home with her kid.

5) Age. She feels she is just too young for kids right now. Later on in life when she is in a better place, she wouldn't mind them. She loves kids, just not right now.



Pretty reasonable reasons, right? So who here would be OK with her getting an abortion on those grounds, and who would be against it?


EDIT: Please do not address this post here. Instead go and vote in the poll thread.

 

[Razor]

Here is a little survey.

A 22 year old woman is single, just starting her career which requires her to work 60 hours a week, and they pay isn't great yet. Going out with her friends is a big part of her life. She is a constantly busy woman between her personal and professional life.

She wants an abortion. The reasons are simple.

1)She does not have the time to raise a child. It would negatively impact her career too much.

2)She does not have a husband to help with the duties. It is too much responsibility on her own.

3)She cannot afford it. Children are expensive, and there is no way she can maintain her lifestyle with a child.

4) It would ruin her social life. Instead of going out with her friends a few times a week, she would be stuck at home with her kid.

5) Age. She feels she is just too young for kids right now. Later on in life when she is in a better place, she wouldn't mind them. She loves kids, just not right now.



Pretty reasonable reasons, right? So who here would be OK with her getting an abortion on those grounds, and who would be against it?

Why wasn't she wearing protection, on the pill and insisting the guy uses a condom? And what about giving it up for adoption?

 

[GhostFox]

Why wasn't she wearing protection, on the pill and insisting the guy uses a condom?

That's immaterial. Just work with me here for a moment. Just a simple agree/disagree.

 

[Razor]

That's immaterial. Just work with me here for a moment. Just a simple agree/disagree.

I would be against it, if the baby is not older then about 1 month - 2 month old, any older then that, and she should be refused in my eyes. It would be 100% her fault though and if it's older then 2 months, she will need to learn to live with her ignorant mistake.

 

[el Chi]

Philosopher Berkeley has absolutely no idea what the heck she is talking about. Babies grow in carpets, waking up and finding yourself attached to a violinist...hmmm...ok.

Granted, they're obtuse analogies, but look past that to the actual point/sentiment of it and you'll see she has every idea "what the heck she is talking about". In all situations, another life has been imposed on yours causing you distress, discomfort, inconvenience and in all situations, your desire to be free of that is entirely forgivable.

Anyway, to make a baby, you have sex. If you don't want to have a baby, you use a contraceptive, good idea to double it up i.e. using a condom and a pill,

You see how this goes with the spores analogy? You see how it works PERFECTLY? No contraception is 100%, so if the proper, sensible precautions fail you, are you still to be responsible?

or you just don't have sex, it isn't that difficult not to have sex.

A fair point, but I don't think that's an entirely viable solution to the problem - the world would be a lot more highly-strung Besides, should we be terrified of everything that might have detrimental effects, even though we find it enjoyable?

And what is stopping a pregnant woman with a completely healthly little faetus inside her, carrying it to term and giving it a chance to live with a family that would do anything for a baby but can't have one for whatever reason.

GhostFox pretty much hit the nail on the head. For example, it is simply a fact that if you're a business woman, say, and you become pregnant you are going to be discriminated in the workplace. By which I mean, it is harder for women to come straight back from maternity leave in a lot of businesses. There's a lot of sexism still about.

 

[Razor]

You see how this goes with the spores analogy? You see how it works PERFECTLY? No contraception is 100%, so if the proper, sensible precautions fail you, are you still to be responsible?

Yes, that is one of the problems with modern living, quick fixes to your problems, if you can't get a quick fix, blame someone else. If you use a condom and a pill and both fail and the morning after pill fails, what are the odds of that?. But both men and women need to learn that if they do have sex promiscuously with every one they see, accidents will happen and those accidents could have consequences, consequences they will need to live with. I can understand that for a woman, it would be extremely hard returning to work after maternity leave, but there are procedures in place to stop any sort of sexism, i know it takes more then a procedure to stop ill feeling though. But a 22 year old with a career ahead of her and a head on her shoulders should realise of the possible dangers.

 

[PvtRyan]

Pretty easy from the sideline eh?

 

[el Chi]

Pretty easy from the sideline eh?

And there we have what may be the most relevant comment on the whole thread.

Yes, that is one of the problems with modern living, quick fixes to your problems, if you can't get a quick fix, blame someone else. If you use a condom and a pill and both fail and the morning after pill fails, what are the odds of that?. But both men and women need to learn that if they do have sex promiscuously with every one they see, accidents will happen and those accidents could have consequences, consequences they will need to live with. I can understand that for a woman, it would be extremely hard returning to work after maternity leave, but there are procedures in place to stop any sort of sexism, i know it takes more then a procedure to stop ill feeling though. But a 22 year old with a career ahead of her and a head on her shoulders should realise of the possible dangers.

1. Only people who have promiscuous sex have abortions? Come on, that's what the Daily Mail says and we don't believe them now, do we?
2. It's a fair point that there are issues of responsibility, but I don't think the enormity of creating a life is one that's easy to grasp until you're actually hit with the prospect of it. It's just like PvtRyan said.
3. There are measures in place to stop sexual discrimination, yes. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen. If you're young that's a lot of work you'll miss out on and thus a lot of money. You need money to raise a child...

I like that some of the people who are quickest to espouse the need for a stable home and family are some of those who are in such staunch opposition to abortions.

There's one anti-abortion argument that stumps me: adoption.
I've known people who've adopted - they couldn't have children but they are superb parents and I admire them for taking on the challenge. However, I think that doesn't mean that there should be NO abortions, nor do I think that if you have an unplanned pregnancy that you must have an abortion. At the end of the day, if you choose to hvae a baby and then give it up for adoption, then fair play to you, you're a very strong woman. Maybe - there might just be a lot of horrible pressure from family, etc. On the other hand, if you choose to have an abortion, that ought to be your decision too. And it's another decision that takes a great deal of strength.

 

[GhostFox]

I've made a seperate abortion poll. Please take the time to vote in that everyone.

 

[MarcoPollo]

ok, lets take this to the babies view. Your mother is hard working and your dad is a deadbeat that ran off, but your mom can't afford to have a baby right nowshe wants to either get an abortion or put you up for adoption...now the question is would you rather live with someone that is not your mother (Possibly bad people, worst case scenario) or be killed?

I'd rather be homeless and hungry rather than die. How bout you?

 

[Razor]

And there we have what may be the most relevant comment on the whole thread.


1. Only people who have promiscuous sex have abortions? Come on, that's what the Daily Mail says and we don't believe them now, do we?
2. It's a fair point that there are issues of responsibility, but I don't think the enormity of creating a life is one that's easy to grasp until you're actually hit with the prospect of it. It's just like PvtRyan said.
3. There are measures in place to stop sexual discrimination, yes. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen. If you're young that's a lot of work you'll miss out on and thus a lot of money. You need money to raise a child...

I like that some of the people who are quickest to espouse the need for a stable home and family are some of those who are in such staunch opposition to abortions.

There's one anti-abortion argument that stumps me: adoption.
I've known people who've adopted - they couldn't have children but they are superb parents and I admire them for taking on the challenge. However, I think that doesn't mean that there should be NO abortions, nor do I think that if you have an unplanned pregnancy that you must have an abortion. At the end of the day, if you choose to hvae a baby and then give it up for adoption, then fair play to you, you're a very strong woman. Maybe - there might just be a lot of horrible pressure from family, etc. On the other hand, if you choose to have an abortion, that ought to be your decision too. And it's another decision that takes a great deal of strength.

I suppose you're right, you really don't know which decision you would take unless you are faced with the same problem. Anyone who could stick to answeing "no to abortion" and stick with it when they are put into that decision is truely strong. I can't see the problem if the pregnancy is in it's first weeks, it is when the pregnancy goes past the 2 month part that i would start to have a problem with a woman deciding to have an abortion, when there are so many options open to her, such as adoption.

 

[Calanen]

and no it's NOT capable of surviving on it's own outside the womb ..I know first hand

Stern - you keep saying that I say that the baby is capable of surviving outside the womb ON ITS OWN. You keep adding the last 3 words. You will see that I addressed this above in the thread, and you either missed it, or ignored it.

And I said, capabable of surviving outside the womb ie it is a baby, not a clump of cells - not that it would not need assistance to survive. Hell, as I said, a baby born after 9 months cannot survive on its OWN.

What I was trying to get across, is that this is a baby being killed in many cases. Not something like a few clustered cells similar to an infection in your ingrown toenail. Thats all. No bold claims as to the medical science of keeping premature babies alive.

And this should have been abundantly clear, one would believe, the first and second times I explained it. Hopefully it is now, the third time it has been explained.

 

[el Chi]

I suppose you're right, you really don't know which decision you would take unless you are faced with the same problem. Anyone who could stick to answeing "no to abortion" and stick with it when they are put into that decision is truely strong. I can't see the problem if the pregnancy is in it's first weeks, it is when the pregnancy goes past the 2 month part that i would start to have a problem with a woman deciding to have an abortion, when there are so many options open to her, such as adoption.

The problem with adoption is that pregnancy is such a huge ordeal to go through to, in the end, give away your baby because you aren't capable of giving it the care it needs.

 

[MarcoPollo]

But it is proven that most women who get abortions go through horrible psychological ordeals and regret the decision horribly.