Assasinating US citzens without due process is legal

[CptStern]

TLDR: obama admin hit list includes americans targeted for assasination without any evidence being brought against them violating the fifth amendment

It was first reported in January of last year that the Obama administration had compiled a hit list of American citizens whom the President had ordered assassinated without any due process, and one of those Americans was Anwar al-Awlaki. No effort was made to indict him for any crimes

Despite substantial doubt among Yemen experts about whether he even has any operational role in Al Qaeda, no evidence (as opposed to unverified government accusations) was presented of his guilt. When Awlaki's father sought a court order barring Obama from killing his son, the DOJ argued, among other things, that such decisions were "state secrets" and thus beyond the scrutiny of the courts. He was simply ordered killed by the President

When Awlaki's inclusion on President Obama's hit list was confirmed, The New York Times noted that "it is extremely rare, if not unprecedented, for an American to be approved for targeted killing."

After several unsuccessful efforts to assassinate its own citizen, the U.S. succeeded today

What's most striking about this is not that the U.S. Government has seized and exercised exactly the power the Fifth Amendment was designed to bar ("No person shall be deprived of life without due process of law"), and did so in a way that almost certainly violates core First Amendment protections (questions that will now never be decided in a court of law). What's most amazing is that its citizens will not merely refrain from objecting, but will stand and cheer the U.S. Government's new power to assassinate their fellow citizens, far from any battlefield, literally without a shred of due process from the U.S. Government.

Many will celebrate the strong, decisive, Tough President's ability to eradicate the life of Anwar al-Awlaki -- including many who just so righteously condemned those Republican audience members as so terribly barbaric and crass for cheering Governor Perry's execution of scores of serial murderers and rapists -- criminals who were at least given a trial and appeals and the other trappings of due process before being killed.

From an authoritarian perspective, that's the genius of America's political culture. It not only finds way to obliterate the most basic individual liberties designed to safeguard citizens from consummate abuses of power (such as extinguishing the lives of citizens without due process). It actually gets its citizens to stand up and clap and even celebrate the destruction of those safeguards

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/09/30/awlaki/index.html

 

[Maestro]

Well what a huge surprise, immense corruption in the US government. Refer to my signature.

 

[Acepilotf14]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/09/30/earlyshow/main20113773.shtml

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

This was bad. If it's an American citizen, they at least need to be convicted of treason first. I'm not shedding any tears that this guy is dead, but they need to do it the right way.

 

[CptStern]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/09/30/earlyshow/main20113773.shtml

ya the issue wasnt really that they killed this guy it was that they killed him without a trial. he's an american citizen and as such is granted rights. it's the precedent this action is setting not necessarily that they killed a known terrorist

 

[Mogi67]

lol @ citizenship

 

[Krynn72]

Yay for the War on Terror! Its such a brilliant idea. Need to kill someone? Call them a terrorist, and voila! They're now considered an enemy combatant and fair game!

 

[15357]

Isn't the whole point of government supposed to be to protect its citizens? I mean, I'm always all for eradication of terrorists and communists, but a government has certain duties to its citizens.

Of course, if they revoked his citizenship with due process, that might work.

 

[<RJMC>]

if they put him o trial he would have taked the change to boast his propaganda and the media will be talking how the usa goverment is treating so well a known terrorist and the democrats would have bashed obama a lot for it "omg he is protecting a muslim terrorist!" and them leftist would have sayd he doesnt deserve the death penalty and is a heroe of the people cuz show what the usa goverment effect in on the people and blablabla

so I guess this was best solution

 

[Maestro]

It's not about being popular, RJMC, it's about doing the right thing. This was patently and explicitly banned by the US constitution's 5th amendment and in so many words:

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

The bolded part is what most people like to make excuses with, what that part means is in time of war people in the military may be denied a proper trial, not that the military & president have free rein to skull**** anyone they want with a drone.

 

[Raziaar]

I'm torn on this issue. On the one hand I can appreciate the problems with assassinating a US born citizen, on the other hand I am certainly not sorry to see him go. Should have gone through measures to strip him of his citizenship before going through measures to kill him.

I don't really know what's involved in stripping someone of their citizenship, but that shouldn't be something able to be done lightly either... but there's no question in my mind the man was not deserving of being an American anymore since he was constantly plotting to actively kill them.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Isn't the whole point of government supposed to be to protect its citizens? I mean, I'm always all for eradication of terrorists and communists, but a government has certain duties to its citizens.

Of course, if they revoked his citizenship with due process, that might work.

The government did protect citizens in the short term by eliminating him. He needed to be, but there were certain processes that needed to be gone through first that were not. On paper, a US citizen was assassinated by the federal authorities. This sets a DRAMATIC precedent.

For example: will militia leaders be eligible to be assassinated by the federal government, based on them being 'an armed threat' to the feds? Even though they're sworn to protect the constitution? This may have created future danger for citizens even though in the immediate short term it protected them from this single dude.

 

[Raziaar]

Was just watching Current TV and they had a series on american citizens operating with militant islamic groups in other parts of the world. One particular group was Al Shabaab which has dozens of English speaking american citizens out there murdering people.

 

[unozero]

Good on Obama for getting rid of that ****er.

 

[15357]

The government did protect citizens in the short term by eliminating him. He needed to be, but there were certain processes that needed to be gone through first that were not. On paper, a US citizen was assassinated by the federal authorities. This sets a DRAMATIC precedent.

For example: will militia leaders be eligible to be assassinated by the federal government, based on them being 'an armed threat' to the feds? Even though they're sworn to protect the constitution? This may have created future danger for citizens even though in the immediate short term it protected them from this single dude.

Oh so the guy was a legit threat. Should read more carefully.

Anyway, I understand the concern, but as I'm not an American I have no idea why you have militia leaders. I mean, militias aren't generally a good idea in a place with sustainable and stable government. If they were like a homeland reserve force, I'd understand though.

 

[Raziaar]

Oh so the guy was a legit threat. Should read more carefully.

Anyway, I understand the concern, but as I'm not an American I have no idea why you have militia leaders. I mean, militias aren't generally a good idea in a place with sustainable and stable government. If they were like a homeland reserve force, I'd understand though.

Don't worry those Militia leaders are not what we 'have'... they're just renegade rambo types who are hankering for a civil war. Most of them anyway. They want a showdown with the government and when they do actually present themselves as a threat and threaten or kill US citizens they'll be squashed amazingly fast.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Don't worry those Militia leaders are not what we 'have'... they're just renegade rambo types who are hankering for a civil war. Most of them anyway. They want a showdown with the government and when they do actually present themselves as a threat and threaten or kill US citizens they'll be squashed amazingly fast.

Contrary to what you might think from watching MSNB or listening the the latest leftist pundits, there are numerous legitimate US militias with competent, non inflammatory leadership. There isn't a 'showdown with the government' wanted nor would killing US citizens be what their intent would be. They're generally organized to provide protection to a particular area or group of people if arms are turned on them by the government or another group, in extreme circumstances (civil unrest/riot, societal breakdown/anarchy, invasion/national defense, extreme government oppression for example like Syria is experiencing)


What you describe are usually not even militias (in name only- not organized nor trained in the least) and are just rambling PR machines that the media likes to pay attention to.

 

[Raziaar]

Contrary to what you might think from watching MSNB or listening the the latest leftist pundits, there are numerous legitimate US militias with competent, non inflammatory leadership. There isn't a 'showdown with the government' wanted nor would killing US citizens be what their intent would be. They're generally organized to provide protection to a particular area or group of people if arms are turned on them by the government or another group, in extreme circumstances (civil unrest/riot, societal breakdown/anarchy, invasion/national defense, extreme government oppression for example like Syria is experiencing)


What you describe are usually not even militias (in name only- not organized nor trained in the least) and are just rambling PR machines that the media likes to pay attention to.

You keep telling yourself that. There has been a huge surge of militant groups in this country since Obama was elected and they speak for themselves... and it's a big **** you to the government. A fair chunk of them are even there in the event of a race war... fueled by white supremacists and the election of a black president.

Don't even deny that bit because you could easily prove yourself wrong.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

You keep telling yourself that. There has been a huge surge of militant groups in this country since Obama was elected and they speak for themselves... and it's a big **** you to the government. A fair chunk of them are even there in the event of a race war... fueled by white supremacists and the election of a black president.

Don't even deny that bit because you could easily prove yourself wrong.

There hasn't been a huge surge in militias since a few incidents (Waco, Ruby Ridge, 9/11, etc.) There's been a huge surge in what I described in the last post- 'pseudo militia' groups that are so only in name, but really don't have any members (3 angry guys with no training whatsoever is not a militia.)

A bunch of idiots in camoflouge yelling on youtube with airsoft guns or posing with their grandpa's gun collection does not equal a militia in the real sense of the word.

Here are some examples of real militias:

Texas Militia
http://txmilitia.net/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0uT7UCFxBI&feature=player_embedded#at=49 (training and common sense drills instead of rhetoric)

Ethnic Jewish Militia
http://einshalom.com/archives/2466

Legitimate AZ militia at 2:00 mark of this video (First 2 mins of the video is the old 'Minutemen'- now defunct group)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR8kK1JuP_E

 

[Raziaar]

There hasn't been a huge surge in militias since a few incidents (Waco, Ruby Ridge, 9/11, etc.) There's been a huge surge in what I described in the last post- 'pseudo militia' groups that are so only in name, but really don't have any members (3 angry guys with no training whatsoever is not a militia.)

A bunch of idiots in camoflouge yelling on youtube with airsoft guns or posing with their grandpa's gun collection does not equal a militia in the real sense of the word.

Here are some examples of real militias:

Texas Militia
http://txmilitia.net/

Ethnic Jewish Militia
http://einshalom.com/archives/2466

Legitimate AZ militia at 2:00 mark of this video (First 2 mins of the video is the old 'Minutemen'- now defunct group)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR8kK1JuP_E

Don't play ****ing semantics... and no, those groups don't have as few people as you're talking about. Don't make me laugh. You don't get to live in your little make believe world where militias are only good things and only ones you want to call militias.

I also find it funny that you think these gun nuts immersed in gun culture who form and join militias are somehow out there toting airsoft guns or guns they themselves don't own. You're dishonestly trying to discredit their presence and the magnitude of what they represent.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Don't play ****ing semantics... and no, those groups don't have as few people as you're talking about. Don't make me laugh. You don't get to live in your little make believe world where militias are only good things and only ones you want to call militias.

I also find it funny that you think these gun nuts immersed in gun culture who form and join militias are somehow out there toting airsoft guns or guns they themselves don't own. You're dishonestly trying to discredit their presence and the magnitude of what they represent.

I'm not saying there aren't idiot militias, there are a couple. The vast majority of 'extreme militia guys' that you see posting these angry videos one after another on youtube have no training, are just a couple guys, and really don't do a single thing for their community. They're more 'some angry armed guys' than they are militias (active, trained, paramilitary units.)

call it that all you want or claim I'm 'playing semantics' but they are what they are. When you just use the blanket term militia to describe them, you discredit legitimate organizations like the ones I posted. Numbers posted asking about militias and you gave the impression that they are just the crazy guys. That's wrong, most 'real' militias are like the ones I posted, numbers. Our Constitution allows and encourages legitimate militias. It's a safeguard against a tyrannical state, insurrection, or invasion. They're not to be confused with mercenaries, also legal here, such as Xe services, etc.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Ron Paul has stated impeachment is a possibility over this illegal killing.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1011/65035.html

I really hope he does something in Congress about it. I feel the same way. Al-Awlaki was a piece of shit, but the way in which he was killed has put EVERY American at risk of being assassinated at any point by the feds without due process.

 

[CptStern]

ya the texas militia (aka lone star militia) is just a bunch of guys doing drills

Another reportedly large militia group, claiming a membership of 11,000, is the Lone Star Militia of Texas. Robert Spence, the dual-hatted leader of the Lone Star Militia, is also the self-described Imperial Wizard of the True Knights of the Ku Klux Klan.(52) "Bo" Gritz, a former Green Beret and 1992 Populist Party candidate for President of the United States, is one of the most active and influential militia organizers and advocates in the country today. He has purchased the land for, and constructed two paramilitary "compounds" in Idaho where he conducts rigorous military-type training programs and claims to be preparing his "followers" to fend-off the coming massive intrusion by the federal government.(53) It is these groups, those militias that are directly linked to known terrorist organizations, that are of particular concern to federal law enforcement agencies, and are known to recruit and claim association with active-duty military personnel.

ya stand up guys concerned over america

http://www.fas.org/irp/eprint/presley.htm

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Robert Spence by my searches shows he was a federal informant against the KKK, nor could I find anything other than the website you gave that associates him with the current txmiltia.net