competitive vs casuals in tf2

[i_liek_shootan]

From what I've seen and played of TF2 it does seem to be a much less competitive game than TFC for one main reason - the lack of difficult "skillz" to learn

ie,

trimping, bunnyhopping, conc jumping, gliding etc

I don't see as much difference b/w "pro" (I hate that word - no1 is getting paid for this shiz) TF2 gamers and casual TF2 gamers as I did when I used to play TFC.

Anyone else with experience of both games agree?

 

[Omnomnick]

I don't REALLY see why it matters, these "difficult skills" you described - atleast 2 of them were exploits which were actually in TF2 during the beta period but were removed.

TF2 does include some real skills which some people find hard to truly master - like rocket jumping. Alot of people find it hard to time the crouch, the jump and the rocket all at the same time while in the middle of combat.

 

[i_liek_shootan]

compared to the skills i listed rocket jumping was/is a piece of pish really for anyone who grew up playing Quake/other FPS DM games.

which two were removed?

as far as i was aware none were exploits in TFC/HL1 - bunnyhopping was capped by Valve to ~140% of movement speed in a patch but it still exists in this form today. it was still difficult to master however.

and bunnyhopping isnt really the same in HL2 due to the engine - you get an initial speed bost from the first jump but the other jumps only maintain it for a short while. there is no building of speed with consecutive jumps.

 

[i_liek_shootan]

i guess i'm basically saying that tf2 as a game isn't as difficult to master as tfc was, whatever today's "competitive" tf2 players might say.

there's the basic aiming skills for hitscan weapons, and rocket skills but other than that the hand eye coordination required isnt as great as it was in TFC.

obviously TFC and TF2 both required tactical skills but i'm talking here about hand-eye coord skills mainly.

the movement skills in TFC allowed competitive players to really set themselves apart from the casuals. i can remember going onto public tfc servers back in the day, playing 2fort and being able to cap single handedly over and over against the other team due to these skills - concing, trimping, bunnyhopping and gliding. not trying to boast as it really doesn't matter - its a dead game now pretty much.

in conclusion "competitive" TF2 players really aren't infinitely better than the casuals in this regard or as great as they may think they are.

 

[Eejit]

I guess you could argue that by having less focus on the minutiae of the player's skills the focus shifts more towards perfecting teamwork - which has less of a 'cap' than conc jumping skills etc.

 

[Darkside55]

TF2 does include some real skills which some people find hard to truly master - like rocket jumping. Alot of people find it hard to time the crouch, the jump and the rocket all at the same time while in the middle of combat.

real skills which some people find hard to truly master - like rocket jumping

hard to time the crouch, jump, and the rocket all at the same time

ROCKET JUMP

HARD TO TRULY MASTER

Bloody hell this is why I hate you people.

You know, this actually reminds me of a story. When I first played TF2 in the beta, first thing I did was test the rjump. I was playing around with it, seeing what could and could not be done still in TF2, and I executed an rjump, 180 twist, wall rocket. People on the server were talking to me in chat like I was the goddamned messiah and I'd just shown them the power of the Lord.

If only you people knew what we soldiers in TFC used to do on akass_skills.bsp you'd shit your pants.


THE ROCKET JUMP IS AN EASY MANEUVER TO LEARN, MAGGOTS

IT IS NOT DIFFICULT

GET A HAIRCUT, EAT SOME RIBS, DEFEND A HILL AND LEARN TO ROCKETJUMP LIKE MEN

YOU ARE ALL WEAK

YOU ARE ALL BLEEDERS

 

[i_liek_shootan]

I guess you could argue that by having less focus on the minutiae of the player's skills the focus shifts more towards perfecting teamwork - which has less of a 'cap' than conc jumping skills etc.

Try a triple conc jump to evade a full strength 4 man defence in an 8v8 on monkey / shutdown / well / whatever to get the flag out of the flag room, conc'ing past an SG in the process, trimping up ramps etc, then talk to me about conc jumping having a capped skill level.

lol

 

[Darkside55]

In addition, while in theory the exclusion of advanced skills and the smaller learning curve would force players to make use of what they have and perfect their teamwork, go to any TF2 pub and tell me this is the case. I have yet to see this in action.

I have yet to see any kind of teamwork in TF2 rivaling some of the things I've seen in even a TFC pub, like a timed flag relay or coordinated double-gassing in Rock2. TF2 is all SPAWN AND RUSH OUT TOWARD THE ENEMY AND SHOOT AT THEM YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

 

[Eejit]

The pub I play on (when I play these days) has pretty good teamwork, at least when the regulars are present. Not clan-level ofc but better than in 99% of the TFC pub games I played.

And an individual's skill will always have a lower cap than the skill required for perfect team play.

 

[Darkside55]

The pub I play on (when I play these days) has pretty good teamwork, at least when the regulars are present.

But therein is the problem, you see, because what you have here is a group of gamers who are used to each other. You might not be clan-level but you have played with each other on a consistent enough basis to function, in a sense, as a clan might.

Try joining any normal pub where everyone isn't a regular. Just some random whatever place. See if the same kind of teamwork holds true.

You see the thing with TFC and its learning curve was that you could gauge the other players in a pub by the skills you saw them performing, and if you had teammates of a sufficient-enough level then you would almost automatically know what they were going to do based on their class, configuration of the teams, map, and current situation. And you would function as if you had been regulars and knew each other BECAUSE YOU KNEW WHAT TO DO.

This is why you will see things like a flag relay, or even now if you go into one of the last remaining TFC servers you'll see people calling out enemy positions and flag positions and sitreps and tossing the flag and coordinating attacks and supporting teammates, and if you go into one of the hundreds of TF2 servers you'll see people being absolutely oblivious.

I don't think you played TFC much. Enjoy your regular TF2 server.

 

[Viperidae]

But therein is the problem, you see, because what you have here is a group of gamers who are used to each other. You might not be clan-level but you have played with each other on a consistent enough basis to function, in a sense, as a clan might.

Try joining any normal pub where everyone isn't a regular. Just some random whatever place. See if the same kind of teamwork holds true.

You see the thing with TFC and its learning curve was that you could gauge the other players in a pub by the skills you saw them performing, and if you had teammates of a sufficient-enough level then you would almost automatically know what they were going to do based on their class, configuration of the teams, map, and current situation. And you would function as if you had been regulars and knew each other BECAUSE YOU KNEW WHAT TO DO.

This is why you will see things like a flag relay, or even now if you go into one of the last remaining TFC servers you'll see people calling out enemy positions and flag positions and sitreps and tossing the flag and coordinating attacks and supporting teammates, and if you go into one of the hundreds of TF2 servers you'll see people being absolutely oblivious.

I don't think you played TFC much. Enjoy your regular TF2 server.

This is why I play arena. Easier to weed out who's good.

 

[Darkside55]

Yeah, that's been my experience too.

Although I DID play this one game of arena recently that was seriously aggravating because my team couldn't grasp, "If you've already forced the enemy from the command point, just stand on the damn point to win the match."

 

[Viperidae]

Ah, then at that point: grief.

Hm I think there's a flowchart hidden somewhere in my playstyle. I could be on to something.

 

[Darkside55]

I don't know if you could call it griefing, but you know, there was one time at arena_watchtower where my teammates all died instantly, leaving me as the sole guy on the command point with three enemies rushing in (a heavy, a sniper, and a scout).

I was a spy.

So I leapt onto the table, hopped onto the little lockers, and cloaked with the cloak and dagger and just let them take the point.

 

[Viperidae]

Best is when you're with a friend and you're both the last players on opposite teams, both spies, and both have c&d. Then crawl around pretending you can't find each other.

 

[i_liek_shootan]

The pub I play on (when I play these days) has pretty good teamwork, at least when the regulars are present. Not clan-level ofc but better than in 99% of the TFC pub games I played.

And an individual's skill will always have a lower cap than the skill required for perfect team play.

lol @ platitudes (look it up)

Sorry and this isn't a subjective statement how? You must know that is unprovable.

 

[Eejit]

And you must know you're denying the obvious in order to believe that your epeen is the biggest possible.

Also darkside I believe the teamwork on my regular server has more to do with the skill and quality of players and their willingness to work as a team than being used to each other. The number of regulars is something like 40-60 for the 24-man server, it's quite different from a clan.
In fact I believe that's generally true, and the mainstream popularity of TF2 compared to TFC (esp in its later years) probably contributes to lower average player ability and so less teamwork - rather than it being the fault of some game mechanic.

 

[i_liek_shootan]

So aside from your inability to structure arguments logically you also indulge in patronisation?

In other games a high skilled player can teamdown the opposition but in TF2 the skill ceiling is low so there's no such thing as high skilled and thus no teamdowning by an individual. When this is mentioned, TF2 fans start talking about "teamskill".

It's the same thing in counterstrike. If some guy is suppose to protect bombsite A but messes up the team loses. There's nothing special about TF2 when it comes to teamplay. The only thing special about TF2 is that it imposes a low skill ceiling so noone can dominate by themselves.

Kinda confuses the issue between forced teamplay (TF2) and teamplay within individual skill.

In sports, an athelete will train all his life to get the skills and then run a few team drills for a few hours to get the team aspect down. But if the rules suddenly say "you can't dribble the ball between your legs and can't run faster than 3 feet per second" all that practise becomes nothing and you're the same as everyone. That's when you'd say... "But I'm a great team player"

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

lol @ platitudes (look it up)

So aside from your inability to structure arguments logically you also indulge in patronisation?

Should he also look up irony for you while he's at it?

 

[i_liek_shootan]

Smart people are allowed to patronise others. this is mah life opinion.

 

[Shakermaker]

Thing is, TF2 isn't even that casual in the first place. It is a hard game to get into, especially learning how to play all the classes right. People that have played the game a lot already, especially shooter gods like you, tend to forget that.

Also, while you're looking up irony, read the description for condescending as well.

 

[Sheepo]

Smart people are allowed to patronise others. this is mah life opinion.

Oh god, you're one of those morons who acts like an asshole and thinks it's cute.

 

[i_liek_shootan]

Thing is, TF2 isn't even that casual in the first place. It is a hard game to get into, especially learning how to play all the classes right. People that have played the game a lot already, especially shooter gods like you, tend to forget that.

Also, while you're looking up irony, read the description for condescending as well.

Its a synonym of patronising. Platitude ++

 

[i_liek_shootan]

Oh god, you're one of those morons who acts like an asshole and thinks it's cute.

Seen, and you were the first to resort to argumentum ad hominem! You win!

 

[Lobster]

I dont personaly think the lack of obscure buggy "skills" detracts from the competative nature of the game. I would understand if we were talking about an Arena deathmatch where the outcome comes entirely down to the individual players actions, but TF2 is meant to be a team game.

The problem I found with things such as Conc jumping in TFC is you had some players who were so good at it, that they could win maps on their own using these silly unintentional features, like a medic blasting himself from the 2fort bridge and only land on his feet half way down the spiral stairs leading to the flag, the guy might aswell have been using noclip.

TF2 should be more about the team working together and a win or loss being determined by their tactics and ability to implement them, rather than who has the glitchiest packet loss!

 

[Sheepo]

Seen, and you were the first to resort to argumentum ad hominem! You win!

That would make perfect sense if I had involved myself with the argument in the first place. It is completely normal in these situations for an impartial observer to note that one of the participants is a douchebag. Nice try though. I also find it hilarious that you seem to think vocabulary = intelligence.

 

[i_liek_shootan]

I dont personaly think the lack of obscure buggy "skills" detracts from the competative nature of the game. I would understand if we were talking about an Arena deathmatch where the outcome comes entirely down to the individual players actions, but TF2 is meant to be a team game.

The problem I found with things such as Conc jumping in TFC is you had some players who were so good at it, that they could win maps on their own using these silly unintentional features, like a medic blasting himself from the 2fort bridge and only land on his feet half way down the spiral stairs leading to the flag, the guy might aswell have been using noclip.

TF2 should be more about the team working together and a win or loss being determined by their tactics and ability to implement them, rather than who has the glitchiest packet loss!

Lol, you sound pretty butthurt.

If conc jumping was a bug why did Valve not take the chance to remove it over the past 5 years?

They didn't remove BH either (although they capped it) so I guess we can take that as tacit approval in both casees.

First of all you talk about these movement techniques as "skills", putting inverted commas to great use. Then in the next breath you talk about how some players were "so good at them". So which is it - are they skills or "skills"?

And your last comment re packet loss makes no sense in the context of this discussion whatsoever.

Team games can still have individuals of immense skill. Look at Maradona in football, especially the 86 World Cup, for an example of an individual within a team making the difference.

 

[i_liek_shootan]

That would make perfect sense if I had involved myself with the argument in the first place. It is completely normal in these situations for an impartial observer to note that one of the participants is a douchebag. Nice try though. I also find it hilarious that you seem to think vocabulary = intelligence.

So you just came in here to flame? It's either one or the other and neither is so great for you

 

[Absinthe]

So you ask for people's opinions and then you basically act like a complete and total fag to the ones you don't agree with straight off the bat.

Nice.

 

[i_liek_shootan]

So you ask for people's opinions and then you basically act like a complete and total fag to the ones you don't agree with straight off the bat.

Nice.

LOL, come on - bring on the personal insults.

 

[Laivasse]

Saying you 'act like' something is actually a fairly magnanimous (given the situation) observation about your behaviour, not something you have to take as a personal insult.

If you find it insulting, change your behaviour or justify it.

 

[i_liek_shootan]

Saying you 'act like' something is actually a fairly magnanimous observation about your behaviour, not something you have to take as a personal insult.

If you find it insulting, change your behaviour or justify it.

bring on the moral fags! you know - those fags who patrol forums all over the world looking to get into ad hominem arguments instead of staying ON TOPIC!

:bounce:

 

[Absinthe]

Yeah... the "LAWL GO AHEAD FLAME ME" internet schtick has been around for a long time and you're far from its best practitioner. All I'm saying is that if you're going to be an asshole, be up front about it. Don't bother with some facade about actually wanting to have a discussion regarding the merits of casual/comp play in TF2 if you're just going to turn around and be a bitch.

 

[Laivasse]

F*ck off, shithead (not you Absinthe).

 

[Absinthe]

No **** YOU, Laivasse. (yes you :|).

 

[i_liek_shootan]

Yeah... the "LAWL GO AHEAD FLAME ME" internet schtick has been around for a long time and you're far from its best practitioner. All I'm saying is that if you're going to be an asshole, be up front about it. Don't bother with some facade about actually wanting to have a discussion regarding the merits of casual/comp play in TF2 if you're just going to turn around and be a bitch.

We were having a discussion before you and your bunch of gangbangers arrived chief - check pages 1 and first half of 2. Or don't you read posts before flaming them? ROFL

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

bring on the moral fags! you know - those fags who patrol forums all over the world looking to get into ad hominem arguments instead of staying ON TOPIC!

:bounce:

And that's quite enough of that. You're the newcomer here, and the onus is on you to fit in. Coming in and acting patronising and condescending to long-time, respected members isn't going to get you anywhere.

Any further off-topic posts from anyone in this thread is going to get an infraction, at 5 points each time.

 

[i_liek_shootan]

And that's quite enough of that. You're the newcomer here, and the onus is on you to fit in. Coming in and acting patronising and condescending to long-time, respected members isn't going to get you anywhere.

Any further off-topic posts from anyone in this thread is going to get an infraction, at 5 points each time.

I'm glad you agreed with the spirit of what I was saying if perhaps not the style.

Back ON TOPIC! (prob not much left to discuss thanks to the regulars but there ya go, some good points raised before hijack!)

 

[Absinthe]

See, I'd agree with you that TF2 doesn't have as high a skill ceiling as the original TFC, and the the original was better suited for comp play. But instead of stating that agreement, you only inspired my contempt when you started acting like a prick at the start of page 2 (lol look it up bozo ROFLWAFFLE). You're a walking bag of tired internet cliches, your most recent one being spinning a moderator's disapproval into some tacit support for your stupid drivel. Get a new gig?

TF2 does suffer from a lack of the complexities (some would call them exploits) that would take place in a TFC map. I can't play it for long periods of time these days because most rounds seem to play the same. I like to think I play my main classes with skill, but then TF2 is designed in a way to ensure a random casual can throw off your game with a few confounding variables. It feels more shallow, but I can't comment on how it plays in a clan game. All that said, do I want to go back and play the conc-spamming mess of medic caps that, while charming, eventually turned me away from TFC? Not really. I think Classic encouraged a more dynamic and team-oriented game on a base level, which TF2 has substituted with sloppy "fun". I like both, but I tire of either after an extended period of time.

So I'll just wait until TF3 when they finally get it right.

 

[i_liek_shootan]

^^ Off topic masquerading as on topic to a certain extent.

The mod, while chastising me for the way I put my point across, agreed that the discussion had gone off topic, a danger which, if you continue to carry on attacking me personally, we may revisit. Not from a response on my part I hasten to add.

But, having said that, I am glad to know we agree on the underlying discussion regarding the complexities of TFC vs TF2. Why you couldn't just have posted the second para I don't know but there ya go. Personally I just play soldier these dayws as I like playing RL style but then I'm sort of stuck in my Quake ways like that.