competitive vs casuals in tf2

[i_liek_shootan]

Any further off-topic posts from anyone in this thread is going to get an infraction, at 5 points each time.

I don't care if it's flaming, it's an honest observation and I hope you listen to it.

This is a pretty good example. ROFL. I had no idea it was possible to be that condescending while sounding that supid. Troll scanning sequence activated.

????

The flaming stopped with Pi Mu Rho's post back on page 3 dude.

PS Maradona goal vs England Semi-Final 86, for an eg of pur individual skill in a team game:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3z-qm-Sb_4s

 

[Jintor]

I'm forcibly reminded about why I don't play competitive.

 

[Danimal]

I didn't even think competitive was that lame.

 

[delusional]

Can you beat Jump_Propel and/or rj_rckteer_adv Darkside?

Can only get halfway through propel, and can't get past level 3 on rckteer.

 

[Darkside55]

Can you beat Jump_Propel and/or rj_rckteer_adv Darkside?

Can only get halfway through propel, and can't get past level 3 on rckteer.

I haven't tried them. Next time I get a chance to play TF2 I'll DL them and check them out. I just watched them on Youtube, with the bonus jumps; Propel looks pretty harrowing, but watching rckteer_adv put a big smile on my face at every jump. I'm gonna have fun with that one.

 

[Darkside55]

Hey.

I hate to double post, but I was running a search for something in the General Gaming forum, and I came across a thread where TFC came up, and the subject of skills came up, and it was kind of related to this thread. And there was this one part in the discussion:

...it just boils down to TFC beasts like Pesh and Seid doing all kinds of shit and killing you seven different ways at once

But what happens when monsters like me and Darkside COMPETE?

That's basically what good servers were; really skilled players doing all sorts of crazy shit to each other.

And I just wanted to say that I really miss Pesh. ;(

 

[Xevrex]

And I just wanted to say that I really miss Pesh. ;(

If you ever came in steam chat, you'd realize that he's actually come back...

 

[Sheepo]

????

The flaming stopped with Pi Mu Rho's post back on page 3 dude.

PS Maradona goal vs England Semi-Final 86, for an eg of pur individual skill in a team game:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3z-qm-Sb_4s

I know, I read the thread and saw you desperately sucking up to him. And I fail to see how that video proves anything other than slow motion is not always a good thing.

 

[MFL]

I have no frame of reference when it comes to a comparison to the skill sets available to be exploited between TFC and TF2, as I only have experience with the latter of the two, but I'm going to put my piece in anyways.

The general agreement here is that TFC had more advanced skills to learn then TF2 does. It seems to me that TF2 hasn't gotten the representation of it's advanced skill sets that it might deserve, and I find it my duty to provide at least some sort of example as to what the possibilities are. By no means am I going to do so for every class, because I'm a lazy bastard and can't be bothered, but here's a video of some bad-assery skills demonstrated by a player of a pyro, which as most of us know, is not a class that is really taken seriously in comp TF2, as it is "so easy" to play the class to average effect (W+M1, amirit?).
You might even say that it takes some skill to use the pyro at an RELATIVELY effective level in TF2.

Video embedding to follow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhgV7npAqOQ

Please note the reflecting possibilities in particular.

And as the game continues to expand with the inclusions of more options in terms of play style, implemented through the new weapons, there will as a logical extension be an expansion of advanced skills to learn. In all actuality, TF2 is probably the best bet as time goes on for an evolving game whose skill cap is only limited by the imaginations and patience of the developers as they continue to add to the game.

 

[i_liek_shootan]

I thought it was a beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeautiful vid

 

[Warbie]

TFC bunnyhopping, and trying to engage in combat at the same time including grenade throws and hitscan weapons is ridiculously hard in hand-eye coordination terms. Much more so the the TF2 Scout's double jumping.

You have so many things to worry about:

Maintaing bunnyhop speed by avoiding obstacles
Timing jumps to p-e-r-f-e-c-t-i-o-n
Timing grenade throws to direction the bunnyhop has you facing
Engaging in effective hitscan shootan combat whilst the bunnyhopping is moving your screen view all over the place

From a hand-eye coord perspective this is far and away above anything in TF2. I'm sorry but there it is.


Then add in some conc jumping / conc sprinting or trimping for good measure and you've got movement that takes, literally, years to master.

This is so different to what's required of a scout in TF2 that it's barely worth comparing the two. You're describing a trick jumping skills used to get around a map quicker. When it comes to combat and this type of movement we're in the realms of drive by shooting. A scout in TF2 will be using his jumping skills - often in a confined space - to stay close to the enemy without getting hit. Big difference.

I'll also be the first to agree that the techniques you mention above are harder to pull off than double jumping. Double jumping on its own is easy. Being able to do it well in a match, however, is more akin to twitch shooting - call it twitch jumping if you like. You can't practise this over and over on trick jump maps and master the technique - it's like being a good shot. You either are or you're not.

Really, it's impossible to make an informed decision on the skills required in competitive TF2 based soley on public play. You don't know what levels of skill or teamplay are required and are only guessing at what the learning curve may be.

 

[i_liek_shootan]

You'd be surprised at some peoples shootan accuracy in TFC whilst bhopping. Some people are so anally good that the pause between shotgun blasts they use to move the mouse for their bunnyhopping, timing it so that when the gun is able to fire again its over the enemy. Madness, absolute madness.

And you apply situational circumstances to TF2 but not TFC in your argument. Don't make the mistake of assuming that in TFC to be an effective attacker using advanced movement skills you just have to perfect moves on trick maps.

The greatest part of advanced movement skills is their improvisational use in match situations which sets the best players apart from the rest.

Then there is the sheer amount of nuance to a conc jump - its not just a 45 degree jump, its anything from 0 to 90 in the vertical. The best players have the timing down so perfectly they can adapt it to any situation.

 

[Darkside55]

If you ever came in steam chat, you'd realize that he's actually come back...

You know I never go there unless the site dies.

(W+M1, amirit?).

I've actually seen two really great videos that showcase just how good you can be with just W+m1; one was a tutorial with explanations written in semi-retarded, LOLcats-esque speak about how you should only use W+m1; the other was one where the guy actually removed every single key from his keyboard except W, and rocked people's shit.

 

[Sheepo]

You'd be surprised at some peoples shootan accuracy in TFC whilst bhopping. Some people are so anally good that the pause between shotgun blasts they use to move the mouse for their bunnyhopping, timing it so that when the gun is able to fire again its over the enemy. Madness, absolute madness.

And you apply situational circumstances to TF2 but not TFC in your argument. Don't make the mistake of assuming that in TFC to be an effective attacker using advanced movement skills you just have to perfect moves on trick maps.

The greatest part of advanced movement skills is their improvisational use in match situations which sets the best players apart from the rest.

Then there is the sheer amount of nuance to a conc jump - its not just a 45 degree jump, its anything from 0 to 90 in the vertical. The best players have the timing down so perfectly they can adapt it to any situation.

Don't even pretend there's as much to be said about evasive attacking whilst nade jumping in TFC as there is while double jumping in TF2. Nade jumping is basically a fast forward button which jumps you to a specific part of the map real fast. So many classes can do it that it ruins class distinction and makes the game far less worthwhile.

 

[Darkside55]

You'd be surprised at some peoples shootan accuracy in TFC whilst bhopping.

it's like being a good shot. You either are or you're not.

I completely disagree with that statement, Warbie.

In my day, soldiers used to gather together and fight to the death in an arena, mano-e-mano, to hone their skills and for the sadistic enjoyment of onlookers. And the strong were acknowledged while the weak were left to nurse their wounds; and they were forced to become better combatants or be ground up into the dirt like compost.

And that's why whenever two soldiers meet on the field of battle it's called MULCH!

And we'd use our skills honed from that to fight! A good soldier who'd proven himself in the arena could transfer his skills into real combat on the battlefield, and he could be seen bunnyhopping and rjumping around the map, quickswitching between RPG and shotgun, mowing down the competition with speed and power. Defenders were laid to waste allowing the medics and scouts to get in and steal their flag; enemy offense was ripped apart by the blast of a rocket, teaching them to keep their greedy, filthy hands off our property!

If you weren't a good shot, or if you didn't have a good grip on advanced movement, Mulch would make a man out of you.

And that's why you soldiers today are weak! There's no mulch! There's no opportunity to bash a man's head in with your shovel in the ring of honor! It's all battlefield combat with no training! A trained body is a disciplined body, and a disciplined body is the body that stands atop all other bodies ON TOP OF A HILL!

Don't even pretend there's as much to be said about evasive attacking whilst nade jumping in TFC as there is while double jumping in TF2. Nade jumping is basically a fast forward button which jumps you to a specific part of the map real fast.

I bet you're one of those guys who thinks nade jumping only makes you go in one direction, huh?

 

[Sheepo]

As opposed to multiple directions? I suppose I am.

 

[Laivasse]

I've actually seen two really great videos that showcase just how good you can be with just W+m1; one was a tutorial with explanations written in semi-retarded, LOLcats-esque speak about how you should only use W+m1; the other was one where the guy actually removed every single key from his keyboard except W, and rocked people's shit.

I've seen that vid - it was a pile of horseshit. Through the key removal he hypes it up like he's about to deliver a masterclass, and of course it's edited together to show scenes of him torching everything to bits, but if you examine the actual situations, it doesn't really show anything. In his longest clip of action, he starts out ubered (so W+m1+ubermedic - bit of a difference to what it says on the tin), then plows through a Blu team who appear to be rushing Goldrush stage 1 as mostly spy/sniper - utter suicide in the first place; if anything they're being MORE retarded than he is. He catches a heavy by surprise and then dies to the first enemy pyro he meets. After that he provides a dramatic close-up of his medic teamtalking 'good job', as if he's proving some immensely amusing point.

The guy then proceeds to show clips of the kills he got while waving his mouse around in a fit, except they're almost all accidental spy-roasts and back lines of snipers.

I like satire, and you could probably put together a pretty good one about how it doesn't take much aim if you want to get moderately frequent kills as pyro. That vid was shitty satire, or a troll trying to get back at all the pyros who killed him by setting out to make his ridiculously elaborate video.

 

[i_liek_shootan]

Don't even pretend there's as much to be said about evasive attacking whilst nade jumping in TFC as there is while double jumping in TF2. Nade jumping is basically a fast forward button which jumps you to a specific part of the map real fast. So many classes can do it that it ruins class distinction and makes the game far less worthwhile.

how to press a fast forward button in TFC:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfGhpuDLdHk&feature=related


i just came

 

[MFL]

In my day, soldiers used to gather together and fight to the death in an arena, mano-e-mano, to hone their skills and for the sadistic enjoyment of onlookers. And the strong were acknowledged while the weak were left to nurse their wounds; and they were forced to become better combatants or be ground up into the dirt like compost.

This sounds quite a bit like the 32-player insta-respawn 2fort server I frequent.

 

[Darkside55]

Try looking for that other vid, Laivasse--it actually is more impressive. And it's funnier because of the retarded text throughout the video. It's labeled as a "How to play pyro" vid.

This sounds quite a bit like the 32-player insta-respawn 2fort server I frequent.

32-player instant respawn doing 1v1 fights? Are you sure we're talking about the same thing? And on 2fort?

Although back in the days of Yoda's 2fort in TFC I did 1v1 a soldier very, very early into my playing the game that influenced the type of player I'd become in all the years to follow. His name was Lightside, if you can believe it.

skillout

If you're gonna post the conc jump one...


THIS AIN'T NO TECHNOLOGICAL BREAKDOWN
THIS IS THE ROAD TO HELL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNfqxs-YNH8

 

[MFL]

32-player instant respawn doing 1v1 fights? Are you sure we're talking about the same thing? And on 2fort?

Probably not, but it has similarities, as hard is it might be to accept given those circumstances... Its like... Hmm.

I've played that particular style so much now. It's how I learned to survive. I learned to thrive in it. The better players there... it's almost as if we ignore the lesser ones by survival instinct and reflex ingrained through dozens of hours playtime... some of us hundreds. We glide around the bullets and our footwork is almost like dancing. I myself go so deep into a trance when I get into it that all the twitch and deeper strategy around playing the map blends and disappears into some kind of surreal state that just blurs by with the sounds of shotguns and rockets.

So yes, I do mean 1v1 fights on 32player insta-spawn 2fort. Because its like that cliched image of two warriors locking gaze across a field of battle, and suddenly everything around them blurs into the background, and they duel, head to head, passively dodging everything not pertinent until one falls and one keeps running and gunning.

And when I wake up, there are dead bits everywhere from each team of the poor souls who got in our ways.

 

[Sheepo]

how to press a fast forward button in TFC:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfGhpuDLdHk&feature=related


i just came

I honestly don't get it.

 

[jet_porkins]

i just came

Saying this doesn't make you cool.

This applies to everyone.

 

[i_liek_shootan]

u said nade jumping was like pressing a fast forward button. i was showing there's a tad more to it than that.

 

[Darkside55]

MFL, I know well what you're talking about. Reading your words has stirred my soldier heart. You are a true warrior. Someday, you and I will have to do battle. Our nature demands it.

 

[MFL]

Balls.

 

[Warbie]

You'd be surprised at some peoples shootan accuracy in TFC whilst bhopping. Some people are so anally good that the pause between shotgun blasts they use to move the mouse for their bunnyhopping, timing it so that when the gun is able to fire again its over the enemy. Madness, absolute madness.

I don't doubt it. They are very different skills to those required of a scout in TF2, though. And while there is more to these skills than simply learning techniques through repetition, there is a large element of that to it. Especially when it comes to capping quickly and generally flying around the map. Anyone with a modicum of skill and time on their hands can learn this, which is why the vids posted in this thread don't make tfc look like a more difficult game to master.

I completely disagree with that statement, Warbie

That came across wrong. I didn't mean people can't improve with practise, more that there's a ceiling. I haven't seen a trick jump/skill video I don't think I could replicate given enough time. I do see people with twitch aim and double jumping skills I know I could never match. Maybe lumping this together as movement skill is wrong - it's pure reactions and adaptation. It's the most tricky thing i've seen in a fps.

Don't make the mistake of assuming that in TFC to be an effective attacker using advanced movement skills you just have to perfect moves on trick

I don't (and put up with alot of chat from ex tfc players over comms saying similar things - missing their nades, ctf and the glory days ), but do think there's more focus on indivisual skill in tfc and not as much on teamplay and sticking together.You can't go flying around the map as a solider as you've just left you team in the shit. The same as a scout - you need to be with your paired scout as much as possible. They're very different different games that require different skill sets.


Having said all this - every game should have strafe jumping. Bouncing around a map with your team makes you feel like a group of super universal soldiers

 

[Darkside55]

I do see people with twitch aim and double jumping skills I know I could never match.

I still disagree with this. Or, well, I disagree with the idea that there's a ceiling for something like twitch aiming. Any barrier can be overcome with dedication. There are literally very few things in life that're reserved only for the naturally talented. The ability to swing a mouse and fire off a shot so fast your enemies will think you have precognition isn't something people are born with, and reflexes can be trained.

You know Warbie...I read a news article many years back where they gave a bunch of Sega Genesises to old folks and it was shown to improve their reaction time.

 

[Warbie]

Any barrier can be overcome with dedication. There are literally very few things in life that're reserved only for the naturally talented.

Spoken like a casual

I know what you're getting at and agree to some extent, but all men aren't born equal and there's loads of other factors that affect how well you can aim. Age is one. I'm not as good as I was 10 years ago - nothing will change that. If you play regularly and are not hitting a top division like standard it's because you've hit your ceiling. Even the Genesis can't change this (although with the snes it may just work )

I was chatting to some ex tfc guys last night - all good players who played tfc at a high level (one played in the England team for a while and the others were in a clan that finished at or near the top in europe for a number of years). They were all in agreement that tfc had a far greater emphasis on individual skill than teamplay, and that for much of the time you got to 'charge about doing your own thing' (not my words). It wasn't uncommon - even at national level - to have the attacking and defending sub-teams on different comms! and for tactics/teamplay to come down to little more than basic prematch co-ordination. One guy - one of life's natural soldiers - still has trouble not getting caught in the moment and keeping an eye on what everyone else is doing, where they are and where the other team is. This is the hardest thing in competitive TF2 and the most obvious element that sets it apart from tfc and most other shooters. It's simply so, so much easier to accurately twitch aim and keep yourself alive when you have a free reign and don't have to be consciously aware of a number of other players and deny basic survival instincts. The game is also considerably more punishing of lapses in teamplay as encounters are often 6 players smashing into 6 players (the days of heroic duels are over).

So there's your difference, shootan. Less emphasis on advanced, adaptive trick jumping and more on teamplay. I'll let you guess what I think is the harder skill to develop

 

[Darkside55]

Spoken like a casual

I know what you're getting at and agree to some extent, but all men aren't born equal

I guess you and I are going to agree to disagree then. If you hit a ceiling, then you either push yourself harder and break through the roof or you end up just accepting it and calling it things like "age" or "my reflexes just aren't as good as some peoples'."

It's more than just playing regularly that will affect your aim. Like if you just 'play regularly' you aren't going to hit a top division level anyway.