Don't you hate people who won't accept the truth?

[$kelet0r]

you know what theory makes almost everything fall in to place (yes i have mentioned it countless times :E)?
the combine were the gman's employers

BAM!!! controversy

 

[esplin]

Was that even what Sulkdodds said? I must missunderstand one of you.
Sulkdodds you mean that combine toke out gmans employes and its now under there control? Well yeah, that could happen... Unless Gman frezzes the hell out of them! Stopping time and cut some throats! No but seriously, yeah ok.

But i didnt realy understand esplin message, please explain. Was some human goverment involved and what implicates that?

Sorry Rizzo I'll clarify.
As far as I can tell the Grunts from Half-Life 1 were involved in the invasion of Xen, due to the fact that the G-man shows you a platoon of dead grunts during his ending speech. Whether or not any humans are still on Xen during Half-Life 2 is debatable, however. Judging from the fact that the newspaper clipping in Black Mesa East says that the U.N. had surrendered to the Combine, the most likely explanation is that the U.S. government does not control Xen. Considering that if they did control Xen its likely that any and all U.S. government officials would have fled to Xen after the Combine invasion.

However, this is all conjecture. We really have no idea what happened to Xen after Gordon killed Nihilanth, and it's possible we'll never know.

 

[Rizzo]

Good ponit. If humans controlled Xen they whould have fled there. Ok.

But we dont know who gman worked for, it could be an unknown factor, the Combine, Humans, Vorts or headcrabs.

So lets say the combine did control Xen in half life 2. Shouldnt they be able to master the teleportation teq that Eli had? They fail the dark energi equation. yes but to be controling xen must mean that they will make progress.
So theres not much need for Eli or Breen, or the humans for that matter.
Im just thinking in text here.

 

[Asknoone]

Sorry Rizzo I'll clarify.
As far as I can tell the Grunts from Half-Life 1 were involved in the invasion of Xen, due to the fact that the G-man shows you a platoon of dead grunts during his ending speech. Whether or not any humans are still on Xen during Half-Life 2 is debatable, however. Judging from the fact that the newspaper clipping in Black Mesa East says that the U.N. had surrendered to the Combine, the most likely explanation is that the U.S. government does not control Xen. Considering that if they did control Xen its likely that any and all U.S. government officials would have fled to Xen after the Combine invasion.

The way I look at it is, that patch of land Gordon arrives at during the final sequence of Half-life is merely a crossover from our dimension to the border world. Look at the ground. Sand. Look at the bodies, the tanks and the jet - far too huddled.

 

[Que-Ever]

you know what theory makes almost everything fall in to place (yes i have mentioned it countless times :E)?
the combine were the gman's employers

BAM!!! controversy

If the combine were G-man's employers, why would thay have him keep gordon in stasis, and then let him lead a rebellion against themselves...?

 

[XANA]

i agree with Samon. the combine couldn't have been on xen because it probly wasn't established while gordon was there. and besides, the factory where you find all the vortigaunts before you fight nihilanth looks quite organic and may be a bunch of flora and fauna moving things around. plus, i think we'd know if the combine was on xen. and the machine-looking thing of nihilanth's could just be.... well nihilanth has telekinesis, well he could have just gathered metal and bent it until it was just the way he needed it. the scars could be caused by vortigaunts. for all we know, vortigaunts could have been free creatures until nihilanth arrived. the vortigaunts could have possibly attacked the nihilanth but not do too much damage. but one thing i want to know is what's the deal with the corpses throughout xen?

 

[Langolier]

The best evidence against the Combine controlling Xen is that they never seem to have assimilated any of that technology. IE: no local-warping. It's not concrete, but it's better than anything else. The Thought Police still make too many assumptions though.

 

[Jintor]

That's thoughtcrime, right there, that is.

 

[$kelet0r]

If the combine were G-man's employers, why would thay have him keep gordon in stasis, and then let him lead a rebellion against themselves...?

the gman was a free agent in hl2

 

[Sulkdodds]

The best evidence against the Combine controlling Xen is that they never seem to have assimilated any of that technology. IE: no local-warping.

Well, that and the fact that the Combine technology on earth is clearly intrusive and otherworldly...therefore we can safely say that it is common across the entire Universal Union...therefore we can conclude that any world controlled by the Union would show evidence of this intrusive brutalist architecture and technology...therefore, it is unlikely the Combine controlled Xen seeing as there is no evidence whatsoever of Combine style!

 

[Lightice]

Well, that and the fact that the Combine technology on earth is clearly intrusive and otherworldly...therefore we can safely say that it is common across the entire Universal Union...therefore we can conclude that any world controlled by the Union would show evidence of this intrusive brutalist architecture and technology...therefore, it is unlikely the Combine controlled Xen seeing as there is no evidence whatsoever of Combine style!

It's already pretty well-established, that Combine wasn't on Xen during the Half-Life 1, but it's less clear, whether they are there during Half-Life 2. This, I imagine, is something we'll learn in the later episodes. The rebels use Xen as a "dimensional slingshot" to power their entangelment-based teleport, so the place, itself exists, but the vortigaunts have for some reason evacuated to Earth, so something bad must have happened in there.

 

[Rizzo]

Well the vorts could have just followed in with the portol storms. Accidental, adn thought, hey! Lets help these people out.

 

[ríomhaire]

If the combine were G-man's employers, why would thay have him keep gordon in stasis, and then let him lead a rebellion against themselves...?

The g-man doesn't mention his employers in HL2
He got fired for sleeping with Adrian

 

[Asknoone]

Contary to popular belief, Gman is not gay.

 

[ríomhaire]

Contary to popular belief, Gman is not gay.

No, but he's like a Catholic priest, they just get a bit...lonly from time to time.

 

[Lightice]

Well the vorts could have just followed in with the portol storms. Accidental, adn thought, hey! Lets help these people out.

"Hey! Lets go help these creepy-looking aliens who just recently popped in our world to kidnap our people for cruel experiments and then killed us by hundreds (thousands?) when we were forced to go into their dimension."

Sorry, but I can't see vorts being too friendly with humans, except in situation where their collective backs are against the wall. While they might not be straightforwardly hostile, either, I would expect quite a bit more suspicion and bargaining, if they had the upper hand in the deal. But since they are on the same boat with us, they're cooperating and have gotten friendly with humans. Or that is my interpretation of the human/vortigaunt-relationship.

 

[Rizzo]

Now thats just silly.
Just becouse he doesnt mention his employers doesnt mean that theyr not there.
But also, his employers doesnt have to be his "race" or whatever. He could just be a mercenary.

 

[$kelet0r]

everything he says in hl2 suggests that he is a free agent in HL2
hell even Breen knows that the Gman accepts offers from the highest bidder

 

[ríomhaire]

"Hey! Lets go help these creepy-looking aliens who just recently popped in our world to kidnap our people for cruel experiments and then killed us by hundreds (thousands?) when we were forced to go into their dimension."

Sorry, but I can't see vorts being too friendly with humans, except in situation where their collective backs are against the wall. While they might not be straightforwardly hostile, either, I would expect quite a bit more suspicion and bargaining, if they had the upper hand in the deal. But since they are on the same boat with us, they're cooperating and have gotten friendly with humans. Or that is my interpretation of the human/vortigaunt-relationship.

"The Eli Vance was our first colaborator"
They don't seem to care that he was one of the aliens kidnaping the people. To me it seems that they work with humans to get rid of the Combine. By the way they talk it is clear that they despise slavery. They posibly also want to enlighten people.
"We are a tapestry woven of Vortesence, it is the same for you if only you would see"
They also praise Gordon alot. I think the fact that humans freed them from their shackles is remembered more strongly than the abductions.

 

[Eejit]

hell even Breen knows that the Gman accepts offers from the highest bidder

That shows he's more of a mercenary than a free agent, if anything.

 

[Lightice]

"The Eli Vance was our first colaborator"
They don't seem to care that he was one of the aliens kidnaping the people. To me it seems that they work with humans to get rid of the Combine.

Exactly what I said, y'know. If there hadn't been Combine or Eli Vance, their point of view could have been radically different.

They also praise Gordon alot. I think the fact that humans freed them from their shackles is remembered more strongly than the abductions.

At the time, certainly, as they've gotten to know humans and our motivations. This might not have neccesarily happened, if there hadn't been the threat of Combine looming in the horizon. It's far easier to reach understanding and cooperation, when there is a common enemy.

 

[Rizzo]

As i see it, the vorts was enslaved when the humans arrived. If they had been no Nihilanth, then things might have looked different.

 

[Hullu]

Who's the Tengil in your signature, Rizzo? I read a series of books about a guy called Tengel once, but I doubt he's the one you refer to.

 

[Rizzo]

Its From a book by Astrid lindgren. Probably heard about her?
Tengil was an evil guy in the book Bröderna lejon hjärta. I dont realy know what the title is in english.

 

[Lightice]

If they had been no Nihilanth, then things might have looked different.

Well, that's rather obvious. However, that doesn't change the point I was making.

 

[Rizzo]

No not realy.I say its rather obvious that without Eli and the combine things whould have looked different.

What i ment was that if Nihilanth hadnt been there, the welcome party for the humans hadnt been so hostile. And the "kiddnapings" might not have happend.

 

[Lightice]

And the "kiddnapings" might not have happend.

What is your basis for saying that? The sample-collecting stopped, when the Xen natives started showing hostility, which means that they had been kidnapping them for experiments at least some time before that begun.

 

[Rizzo]

No... Samples yes, but a friendly encounter with Vortigaunts might have taken it to another direction. As we can see from dead bodies with HEV suits, Xen proved to be a hostile enviroment, and Xen creature never talk, and apear stupid.

But in Half life 2, Vortigaunts seem friendly. Now when there is no one messing with their heads.

 

[Lightice]

No... Samples yes, but a friendly encounter with Vortigaunts might have taken it to another direction.

Would the vortigaunts have been so friendly if dimensional travellers popped out of nowhere to kidnap their brethen, I wonder. In any case, the point I was trying to make was, that the motivations of the vortigaunts for helping humans are to large extent based on the fact, that they and humans are in the same boat - if one falls, so will the other. If this wasn't the case, there would be far more tensions. Strange cultures never clash peacefully.

Xen creature never talk, and apear stupid.

Vortigaunts talk all the time - humans just don't understand them. Also, vortigaunts build intelligent constructs.

But in Half life 2, Vortigaunts seem friendly. Now when there is no one messing with their heads.

Indeed. There are three basic reasons for this: first, they have been released from Nihilanth's slavery and can make their own decisions. Second, they have been informed that they have a human, the Free Man to thank for releasing them and third, they're under a serious threat of being enslaved once again, by even worse master and humans can help them to prevent this.

Take away any one of these reasons and the interaction between the two species would be quite different.

 

[Rizzo]

You missunderstamd me.

I dont belive humans whould just pop in and snatch some vorts. Especially if one communicated with them.When humans first arrived they probably came light, and with the vortigaunts who probably did what they did throw out black mesa. They fried them. So humans came back heavily armed and snatched them.

Sure they whould have taken samples and cheeked stuff out. maybe brought back a bullsquid or two, maybe some head humpers.

But the xen trip was a bad idea, you shouldt just walk in to a mans house and eat his food, shit on his toilet and sleep in his bed. Thats just common sense.

 

[Lightice]

I dont belive humans whould just pop in and snatch some vorts. Especially if one communicated with them.When humans first arrived they probably came light, and with the vortigaunts who probably did what they did throw out black mesa. They fried them. So humans came back heavily armed and snatched them.

Sorry, but here I disagree. The science team's sole motive was to learn about Xen creatures. They didn't care about the rights of the creatures involved, when doing this. They weren't a diplomatic representatives to bring the interdimensional message of peace. They just wanted samples, preferably living and took them as they were found. They didn't stop to ask if they were sentient or not.

Didn't one scientist say something on the lines, that they only stopped collecting samples, when the team-members themselves started being collected by Xenians, in turn?

 

[Rizzo]

No... But seeing how hostile Vorts are under the control by giant fetus, i guess they whould have attacked scientist without further due.
Thinking that humans have known about Xen at some time before the RC, and collecting samples, as shown in xen. All the dead bodies. They whould find interests in the Critters living there. But have contact with an Alien race for the first time, and start blasting on them and kinddnaping them? I doubt it.

Unless they prove to be non friendly.

So without Nihilanth, i do belive the encounter with vortigaunts whould have been peaceful. If Xen is the Vorts homeworld.

 

[Que-Ever]

Vortigaunts aren't from xen...

 

[Langolier]

Well, that and the fact that the Combine technology on earth is clearly intrusive and otherworldly...therefore we can safely say that it is common across the entire Universal Union...therefore we can conclude that any world controlled by the Union would show evidence of this intrusive brutalist architecture and technology...therefore, it is unlikely the Combine controlled Xen seeing as there is no evidence whatsoever of Combine style!

There you go making those huge assumptions.

You've seen one very small fraction of the Universal Union. It's like visiting say... Yolo County in California and then assuming that it is an accurate representation of the whole of the United States. Infact, I reckon parts of Louisiana or New York state are vastly different in their apperance.

The point is: the over-all story and background to many parts of the game is deliberately left vague to give the developers more freedom in making Half-Life games. It is very presumptous of you to make so many assumptions and state them as absolute fact.

 

[Asknoone]

You do know Doug Lombardi came along and confirmed the Combine weren't on Xen?

 

[Rizzo]

Well you get a glimpse of other citadels at the end of half life 2... So i presume that how they look at the other dimensions/planets too.

 

[Asknoone]

Those aren't Citadels, I'm pretty sure they are portal relays.

 

[Rizzo]

huh? And they are at the top of the citadel right?

 

[Lightice]

No... But seeing how hostile Vorts are under the control by giant fetus, i guess they whould have attacked scientist without further due.
Thinking that humans have known about Xen at some time before the RC, and collecting samples, as shown in xen. All the dead bodies. They whould find interests in the Critters living there. But have contact with an Alien race for the first time, and start blasting on them and kinddnaping them? I doubt it.

Well, here we are then, stuck in a single point, due difference in interpretation. Not even Nihilanth had any reason to be hostile towards some randomly appearing dimensional travellers, at least until he'd have confirmed their motivations and potential strength for retaliation.

I interpreted the scientist's speech in the way, that they collected samples - including vortigaunts - from Xen without major hostilities aimed against them and only stopped, when all beings under Nihi's command started in turn kidnapping and killing them.

As for the dead human bodies on Xen, I believe that they were other scientists sent to kill Nihilanth to stop the invasion, like Gordon was. You see at least one of them lying in the floor of the damn factory-complex. You'd imagine, that they'd been cleaned up, already, if they hadn't come just recently and just gotten killed.

 

[Sulkdodds]

There you go making those huge assumptions.

You've seen one very small fraction of the Universal Union. It's like visiting say... Yolo County in California and then assuming that it is an accurate representation of the whole of the United States. Infact, I reckon parts of Louisiana or New York state are vastly different in their apperance.

The point is: the over-all story and background to many parts of the game is deliberately left vague to give the developers more freedom in making Half-Life games. It is very presumptous of you to make so many assumptions and state them as absolute fact.

I'm not stating it as absolute fact. It's just what I think. You'll notice I was editing 'there is some debate' into the wiki instead of 'the Combine weren't on Xen full stop.'

Thing is, the Combine are an invasive alien force who have taken over Earth and thousands of other worlds as well (we assume). There is a big contrast between their 'style' and any human 'style'. Their citadel was teleported in from another dimension pretty much as it appears in HL2, which surely means we can safely assume that it's representative of other citadels? The Combine are IMPOSING their style onto us, so surely it's not that big a presumption that said style is the same wherever they impose it? We're talking about the military of a big empire here, who use synth forces quite alien to anything we've got on earth. The very intrusive, imposing and brutal nature of their invasion and subsequent occupation means that we can get a good idea of what a Combine occupation elsewhere might look like.

What you're telling me, then, is that you reckon the Combine Forces have a different 'style' for different worlds that they invade?

Considering that their 'style' is mostly seen in a citadel which dropped in from another reality, I think we can safely assume said 'style' is shared all across their military forces. Breen's office looks like an office, but it's still evident that it's in the citadel. And to get to Breen, we had to climb through a mile or so of skyscraper. Contrast with Nihilanth's Chambers and the areas you had to pass through to get to them, and there is no hint of Combine style or arcitechture anywhere.

Of course, Valve could have been making it all up as they went along and not actually developed the Combine style till after HL1 was released.