Fallout as Teaching Material

[Jintor]

Well, not quite, but it's an interesting read nonetheless.

Our first Fallout conversation was a disaster. Few students had posted on the forum as I had asked them to, and it was obvious that almost no one had devoted much time to playing. They basically tried the game, got frustrated, threw up their hands, and walked away. Our midterm break began the following day, so I told them I expected them to continue playing over the break, be resourceful, roll up their sleeves, and figure it out. "Somewhere in there," I assured them, "is the best RPG you will play this semester. If you dig harder to find it, I promise you will thank me." A bit of hyperbole, perhaps, but I meant it.

http://www.brainygamer.com/the_brainy_gamer/2008/10/fallout-3.html

 

[Kyorisu]

/facepalm.

So because Fallout is an unintuitive piece of shit, it's good. Right.

 

[Tagaziel]

What's funny, I had absolutely no problems understanding the interface eleven years ago, yet adults nowadays can't seem to understand it.

Let me quote Rosh on the subject of unintuitive interface:

Spencer Greenwood also fails on counts of failing to read a status window (like when you click on ANY stat in Fallout, there's a description of what it does in the game world), and if anyone can't figure out how to kill the rats in the first cave or can't figure out how to work the speech system, use skills (BIG RED ****ING BUTTON LABELED SKILLDEX), heal ("I wonder what this shit in my inventory does, I can't bother to read any of the descriptions. Maybe if I just click on the knife or flares a few times they will heal me...where's the health potion hotkey?!"), or anything else, then they need to acknowledge that they failed simple education and be content as one of the human trash that requires a point and drool console FPS interface.

Thank you Rosh.

 

[TheHamster22]

I'll be honest after a day at university listening in lectures, going through tutorials or doing any of the other unintuitive rubbish I have to do there all day, the last thing I want to do is relax playing some game which requires me to read a text book worth of text to understand.

Frankly it just sounds too much like more work to me.

 

[venturon]

Since when was Fallout's interface complicated? The hardest thing about Fallout is getting the damn thing to run properly.

 

[Dog--]

Fallout isn't complicated or anything, it's just stupidly annoying to play. Action Points are possibly the worst invention in any video game ever.

 

[theotherguy]

I was one of those people who gave up after less than an hour. The game has an extremely steep learning curve and is simply not fun.

 

[Mirage]

......

 

[CrazyHarij]

I just started playing fallout 2 after not ever touching it and I ****ing love it. Within it's setting, it's more open-ended than any other game i can think of. Things like the action points are decent trade-offs for the game mechanics to work reasonably well.

 

[Tagaziel]

Nto to mention that turn based combat is the *only* possible option for adding tactical depth to a game and implementing it's RPG mechanics.

 

[Bob_Marley]

Nto to mention that turn based combat is the *only* possible option for adding tactical depth to a game and implementing it's RPG mechanics.

Smart Pause System ala Brigade E5: New Jagged Union. But even then its still very similar to turn based.

 

[Tagaziel]

It is basically turn based.

The biggest problem with pause is that the game still functions as a real-time game - enemies aren't moving one-by-one, benefitting from having all processing resources at their disposal to make a tactically viable move, but rather, act on whatever amount processing power they get. 1/2 if there are two enemies moving, 1/4 if there are four and so on and so forth.

It shows when comparing JA2 and Silent Storm to RT "tactical" games. The enemies are much more unforgiving, and you really have to play your cards right.

 

[RyanG]

I'm in the "gave up after 15 minutes" demographic. My biggest problem was that it was always fullscreen and you couldn't change the resolution. Thus, when the original res (I think it was 640x480 or something) is blown up to fit my 22" widescreen LCD, it looks like s***. It made it hard to play.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's bad gameplay-wise, but from what I did play I could tell it had a steep learning curve and was pretty difficult from the get-go. I also didn't like the way the actual pieces of information I needed were buried inside the manual which was themed to fit the game.

 

[Adrik_Senturu]

When I first played I gave up pretty quickly because I just wasnt used to it, but I went back to it a month later I ended up forcing myself to play and ended up loving the thing. It does take a bit of work, but I think it pays off in the end really. ITS NOT THAT BAD.

 

[Laivasse]

I've never really understood the 'unintuitive' criticisms, since I find the UI perfectly clear. For me the things that were hardest to get to grips with were the turn-based combat and action points system. It frustrated the hell out of me at first, but you later come to realise that a lot of that initial frustration is a natural consequence of being a low level character in an unforgiving game world. Once you become stronger and less of your attacks miss pathetically, you discover the freedom and tactical depth that the combat system allows for.

Turn-based combat is always touted as one of the big stumbling blocks for the series, but I don't really get why other RPGs don't tend to be judged by the same harsh standards. Fallout combat is miles ahead of, say, the average JRPG like Final Fantasy. It's more fun and tactical than the poor first person combat in Oblivion. It's also superior, in terms of depth and fun, to the later Infinity engine games like Baldur's Gate et al, which I initially much preferred. In none of those games can you open fire on the rearmost person in a crowd with a gatling gun and watch as everyone in between gets shredded.

 

[Tagaziel]

I'm in the "gave up after 15 minutes" demographic. My biggest problem was that it was always fullscreen and you couldn't change the resolution. Thus, when the original res (I think it was 640x480 or something) is blown up to fit my 22" widescreen LCD, it looks like s***. It made it hard to play.

http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/dload.php?action=file&file_id=1169
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/dload.php?action=file&file_id=1173

Also, all RPGs are difficult from the get go, when you are a level 1 character with a peashooter.

 

[KagePrototype]

Also, all RPGs are difficult from the get go, when you are a level 1 character with a peashooter.

Most RPGs I've played have had a traditional difficulty scale, so I'm not sure this is true.

 

[Tagaziel]

What's so hard about Fallout 1?

Blast some rats/stomp them into the ground, head to V15, visit Shady Sands, get Ian, blast your way through V15 (it's a breeze), then head to Junktown.

Of course you may have been looking for trouble (say, attacking the Khans at level 2). It's your own fault then.

 

[Paulaner]

Not to mention that turn based combat is the *only* possible option for adding tactical depth to a game and implementing it's RPG mechanics.

Totally agreed.

 

[Jintor]

Fallout combat may have been turn-based and viewed commonly as boring, but the combination of hilarious graphical effects, the funny descriptive text in the corner, and the incredibly awesome sound effects made it far far more enjoyable than, say, Oblivion's.

 

[Laivasse]

I'll never forget the satisfaction I felt the first time I blew a watermelon sized hole in someone's torso with a Magnum crit.

 

[Kyorisu]

ATB > You.

 

[RyanG]

http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/dload.php?action=file&file_id=1169
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/dload.php?action=file&file_id=1173

Also, all RPGs are difficult from the get go, when you are a level 1 character with a peashooter.

Thanks! Do you know if these work with the GOG.com version? I don't if they've changed anything in their release.

 

[Kyorisu]

Also, all RPGs are difficult from the get go, when you are a level 1 character with a peashooter.

Many RPGs actually start out piss easy. The idea being if you don't develop your character to focus on certain things you'll fail later down the track.

 

[RyanG]

Also, all RPGs are difficult from the get go, when you are a level 1 character with a peashooter.

On the other side of that, you have systems like those used in Oblivion - where the enemies level with you. I liked Oblivion a lot, but that was one of it's biggest problems.
Having an RPG "difficult from the get-go" is the lesser of two evils, IMO.
Unlike, say, a shooter, RPGs aren't (or shouldn't) be intended as fast-paced games. That's what I liked about Morrowind - right after I started the game, I wandered into a cave where this one guy killed me in three hits. So I reloaded, didn't visit that cave again and then went back to it when I was a high enough level. One shouldn't expect to finish an entire RPG without dying.

 

[Tagaziel]

Thanks! Do you know if these work with the GOG.com version? I don't if they've changed anything in their release.

I believe there should be no problem, as it (to my knowledge) only extends the exe's functionality (and is piss easy to uninstall if you run into any problems)

My advice, finish both Fallouts once, then install restoration patches (TeamX's for Fo1 and killap's for FO2). The first expands the original Fallout while the second, well, recreates what Fo2 was supposed to be from the start.

On the other side of that, you have systems like those used in Oblivion - where the enemies level with you. I liked Oblivion a lot, but that was one of it's biggest problems.
Having an RPG "difficult from the get-go" is the lesser of two evils, IMO.
Unlike, say, a shooter, RPGs aren't (or shouldn't) be intended as fast-paced games. That's what I liked about Morrowind - right after I started the game, I wandered into a cave where this one guy killed me in three hits. So I reloaded, didn't visit that cave again and then went back to it when I was a high enough level. One shouldn't expect to finish an entire RPG without dying.

Exactly. Fallout is, to be honest, one of the more balanced games, since as long as you keep your cool and your pistol reloaded you should be alright.

 

[theotherguy]

Nonsense. Turn-based combat is unfun and very inane in any context. I tend to avoid all games with turn based combat, sans the occasional strategy game.

 

[Dog--]

Especially the very shitty Final Fantasy series.

*dodges brick*

 

[Acepilotf14]

Especially the very shitty Final Fantasy series.

*dodges brick*

I agree here.
but at least Fallout attempted to make it tactical.. I mean, what RPG isn't at least layered with turn based elements? KOTOR isn't even real time, it just seems like it. It pretty much uses the d20 system. Mass Effect and Oblivion are both real time, and they had meh-okay combat at best.

 

[Tagaziel]

Nonsense. Turn-based combat is unfun and very inane in any context. I tend to avoid all games with turn based combat, sans the occasional strategy game.

Just because you find it unfun doesn't mean hundreds of thousands of other games do.

 

[RyanG]

Especially the very shitty Final Fantasy series.

*dodges brick*

I would agree with you, but I've honestly never played them, and they also have a huge community... so I'm going to withhold any judgment upon them.

 

[Dog--]

Just because you find it unfun doesn't mean hundreds of thousands of other games do.

I'm sure there are atleast a hundred thousand games who do.

 

[Jintor]

Turn-based is awesome, if unrealistic.

 

[Bob_Marley]

Exactly. Fallout is, to be honest, one of the more balanced games, since as long as you keep your cool and your pistol reloaded you should be alright.

Balanced? Well, maybe at the begining, but by the time I was level 12 I had turbo plasma rifles, hardened power armour and thus the ability to take anything short of a thermonuclear blast to the face and laugh and a weapon that could kill any enemy in less than one turn. And frequently alot of alegdely tough enemies (I'm looking at you, super mutants) in a single turn. If you picked the right starting stats you could have a character that was good at everything from dealing with computers and getting good prices to blasting your way through entire divisions single handed with relativly little trouble. Granted, it wasnt a Fable in terms of imbalance, but still, it did get rediculusly easy. Heck, even with metal armour and a snipers rifle a character with small guns 85+ (ish) could take down most enemies with few problems.

Turn based is good, but I still prefur the more dynamic Smart Pause System as I find it more enguaging and less unrealistic (even if mercenary commanders cant acutally stop time to issue orders )

 

[Paulaner]

Just because you find it unfun doesn't mean hundreds of thousands of other games do.

The more exciting and funny combat sequences of all my gaming life have been turn-based. Real time is just another story. Not comparable. Two different genres. And I'm with Mikael: only turn-based combat allows you to express the full mechanics of an RPG. And by "full" I mean not dumbed down to some extent.

So, Mikael, that's why I will give Fallout 3 a try; because I know that it will never be the same as the original FO 1/2. I see it as a free roaming Oblivion with guns. Not a true Fallout sequel. Not a real RPG.

 

[Tagaziel]

Balanced? Well, maybe at the begining, but by the time I was level 12 I had turbo plasma rifles, hardened power armour and thus the ability to take anything short of a thermonuclear blast to the face and laugh and a weapon that could kill any enemy in less than one turn. And frequently alot of alegdely tough enemies (I'm looking at you, super mutants) in a single turn. If you picked the right starting stats you could have a character that was good at everything from dealing with computers and getting good prices to blasting your way through entire divisions single handed with relativly little trouble. Granted, it wasnt a Fable in terms of imbalance, but still, it did get rediculusly easy. Heck, even with metal armour and a snipers rifle a character with small guns 85+ (ish) could take down most enemies with few problems.

Of course when you pick the combination of right stats and tags you're going to rock, power gaming ain't called power gaming for nothing. And once you get power armour and turbo plasma rifle, you are ready for the endgame.

Of course that doesn't mean you're invincible, try taking a minigun burst to the face.

Hell, once a raider with AP ammo and an assault rifle ripped me apart in Vault 15.

Turn based is good, but I still prefur the more dynamic Smart Pause System as I find it more enguaging and less unrealistic (even if mercenary commanders cant acutally stop time to issue orders )

The biggest flaw there is that the AI still gets fractions of a CPU's processing power to react, rather than the entire thing.

So, Mikael, that's why I will give Fallout 3 a try; because I know that it will never be the same as the original FO 1/2. I see it as a free roaming Oblivion with guns. Not a true Fallout sequel. Not a real RPG.

You are forgiven. Go, and sin no more my child.