Gordon's choice

[Llama]

I was on pointlesswasteoftime . com and I was reading the article by David Wong about how it impossible to make any choice. This got me thinhking. Was Marc Laidlaw thinking along those lines when he imgained the G-Man at the end of HL2 and his quote "rather than give you the ILLUSION of free choice"

Thoughts?

Warning: Strong Language
http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/horror.html

 

[Rizzo]

Intressting. True... But choice is still there... Even thou its a series of events that have led me to belive it is the "right" one.

 

[Llama]

I think you missed the point of that article...its saying there is NO free choice. Whatver you eventually do was always 'destined' to happen

 

[Eejit]

I was on pointlesswasteoftime . com and I was reading the article by David Wong about how it impossible to make any choice. This got me thinhking. Was Marc Laidlaw thinking along those lines when he imgained the G-Man at the end of HL2 and his quote "rather than give you the ILLUSION of free choice"

Thoughts?

Warning: Strong Language
http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/horror.html

I just thought it was a reference to the "choice" he gave at the end of HL1, join him or die.

 

[Llama]

Yeah so did I, im just pointing out how you could make a connection between the two. Besides, it gives an excuse to use that article in a debate ;p

 

[Rizzo]

Its still a matter of choice. I understod the article perfectly. You didnt understand what i typed.

 

[InnerRayg]

I was on pointlesswasteoftime . com and I was reading the article by David Wong about how it impossible to make any choice. This got me thinhking. Was Marc Laidlaw thinking along those lines when he imgained the G-Man at the end of HL2 and his quote "rather than give you the ILLUSION of free choice"

Thoughts?

Warning: Strong Language
http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/horror.html

An interesting read...but I'm almost definate it's meant as a work of satire.

 

[Llama]

Its still a matter of choice. I understod the article perfectly. You didnt understand what i typed.

Perhaps you could enlighten me then?

 

[okidoki]

When I first saw the subject, I thought you were suggesting a crappy movie where Gordon has two pet headcrabs.

I think you missed the point of that article...its saying there is NO free choice. Whatver you eventually do was always 'destined' to happen

I choose to disagree. :upstare:

 

[Rizzo]

Sure i could... But my english is a bit weak at best.
I belive in the article, but we still choose(wtf?) what to do... But the choice we make has been manipulated by people around ous and so on. I didnt dissagree with the article. Or maybe i did. Im tired now and have to go to sleep.

 

[mogcoro]

I find what is mentioned in the article quite true.


Some thoughts:
The universe is run with a set of rules, and they don't change.
I guess we all play HL and are also familiar with computers.
If input is the same on two computers running the same program, the result will be the same. ("random" is not a factor because there is no true "random", all random are generated by a set of rules to produce some seem to be unpredictable numbers, like applying some maths on the time. If everything are the same, even "random" numbers will be the same.)

This is the case of the universe itself. Every choice we make is based on the activities of the universal rules inside and outside our brain. Since the beginning of time the rules have been running, if the rules and all information that assemble the universe is known, the universe can be calculated using these knowledge, and the results are always the same no matter how many times you calculate.
All choices, or random events in our universe is somehow planned by destiny, which is the way the universe run basing on all the rules, e.g. physical, chemical, etc.
So there is only one way the universe run, which is the way we can see with our eyes everyday.


Well, if elaborate more the topic can relate to everything like "BACK TO THE FUTURE I-III is just unrealistic" so, that's it. Thanks for reading.

 

[Eejit]

Wow, guess whoever wrote that article has never heard of Brownian Motion, Chaos Theory etc.
i.e. there is true "random" in the universe.

 

[Rizzo]

Ahh the Chaos Theory...
But i still agree with this article, becouse cause and effect, smallest event starts a chain reaction. Something your mother told you when you where 5 still bears with you and affects your choises.

 

[mogcoro]

Well... if EVERY bits and pieces of information in the universe is known (every single property, like energy or direction or position of an atom or whatever that forms the atom), Brownian Motion can also be predicted, so no ture random!

There is "random" because there are unknown factors not taken into calculation, so the results seem unpredictable.

 

[Lightice]

Wow, guess whoever wrote that article has never heard of Brownian Motion, Chaos Theory etc.
i.e. there is true "random" in the universe.

I guess that you don't understand Chaos Theory (don't we all just love those Capital Letters?), then. The whole point of the theory is, that there is order in all the "chaos" that can be studied and measured. Things are "random" only because we don't understand the factors behind them, not because they'd pop into existance with no logic whatsoever. The chaos theory studies these unknown factors and reminds us, that even tiniest slight can cause vast changes in the model - the infamous Butterfly Effect.

 

[Que-Ever]

I agree about the dog****ing.

ooh yeah.

 

[Rizzo]

I agree about the dog****ing.

ooh yeah.

Don't we all?

 

[ríomhaire]

I guess that you don't understand Chaos Theory (don't we all just love those Capital Letters?), then. The whole point of the theory is, that there is order in all the "chaos" that can be studied and measured. Things are "random" only because we don't understand the factors behind them, not because they'd pop into existance with no logic whatsoever. The chaos theory studies these unknown factors and reminds us, that even tiniest slight can cause vast changes in the model - the infamous Butterfly Effect.

I'm going to find that butterfly and kill it before it causes any more F*CING EARTHQUAKES!

 

[Rizzo]

No not eayhquakes, tornados.
Earthquakes are a ressult of the continetalplates(?) that are constatly moving, and coliding.

 

[Remus]

Argh, this no choice and fate thigh your talking about is really pissing me off.
Everything in this world is chaotic and random, there is no hidden meaning or fate, OK!!!!

 

[Rizzo]

Why do you say that?

 

[Remus]

Why do you say that?

Because I choose to.

 

[Lightice]

Argh, this no choice and fate thigh your talking about is really pissing me off.
Everything in this world is chaotic and random, there is no hidden meaning or fate, OK!!!!

*chuckle*

You seem to have a rather messed idea about the world. You certainly don't seem to understand what "chaos" or "random" really even mean. Without a pre-determined structure of causality, you could, for example, burst into a cloud of soap-bubbles at any moment - it wouldn't need to make any sense, because it would be, as you said, random. But we do have a causality, or else there is some serious effort made to look like the actions and reactions are connected together.

Do you believe, that when you press the button on your computer, it turns on? Propably yes. Then, do you believe that the fact that the computer turned on was somehow related to the act of pressing the button? Propably also yes. And if you believe in connection between an action and reaction, then you must believe in causality. Humans aren't an exception to this rule. Action and reaction - that's how it all works.

 

[Remus]

Ok I didn't express myself correctly. You're right there is cause and effect and if there was no order at all you could for no reason find yourself in a cloud of bubbles, like you said. I was referring to Gordon's choice, that's the topic of this thread isn't it?
I was just saying that despite the cause and effect that all of you keep talking about there still is free will and you always have a choice no matter what the situation.

 

[Llama]

Argh, this no choice and fate thigh your talking about is really pissing me off.
Everything in this world is chaotic and random, there is no hidden meaning or fate, OK!!!!

Prove it. Go on, I dare you to prove it. I bet £1,000,000,000 you can't.

Edit: No, you didnt. You have always been destined to say that, you didnt have any influence on the matter.

 

[Lightice]

I was referring to Gordon's choice, that's the topic of this thread isn't it?

I was referring to choice in general. Gordon's included.

I was just saying that despite the cause and effect that all of you keep talking about there still is free will and you always have a choice no matter what the situation.

Depends on how you define free will. If you define it's as a sensation, then I agree with you. If you say that will defies causality and that people's decisions aren't influenced by outside factors, then we are going into murkier waters. I should warn you, that the subject has been discussed throughly for over three thousand years and no-one has yet managed to win causality through the use of logic.

You'll find me defending freedom of will at any time, but at the same time you will never find me defying the fact, that my "free" decisions are influenced by matters outside my control. It might seem paradoxical, I happen to find the sensation of freedom the most pleasant of all. That's where it boils down in human interaction - pleasure and pain.

 

[Remus]

Ok, so I guess this whole thing started from what the G-Man said about the illusion of free choice. i could extend that idea to the choice made by Gordon in the first game. So, let me get this straight, no mater what, he was supposed to choose to work for the G-Man. I disagree. The first time I finished that game I told the G-Man to shove his offer where the sun don't shine. As for that Battle that the G-Man referred to, well, I could've beaten all of those stupid alien grunts, but that wasn't in the script and the screen just went black, how stupid.

So, yes, I agree, our choices and thoughts are influenced in a certain degree by external forces, but still. For example, lets say that in a situation I'm expected to react in a way, I would do exactly the opposite, not because it makes sense or it's logical but because I simply wanted to. In conclusion, we could debate on this subject endlessly without any result.

 

[Eejit]

Well... if EVERY bits and pieces of information in the universe is known (every single property, like energy or direction or position of an atom or whatever that forms the atom), Brownian Motion can also be predicted, so no ture random!

There is "random" because there are unknown factors not taken into calculation, so the results seem unpredictable.

I guess, but of course all that can't be known, due to the uncertainty principle.

Oh, and sorry Lightice, I may have been thinking of quantumn chaos theory.

 

[Lightice]

So, yes, I agree, our choices and thoughts are influenced in a certain degree by external forces, but still. For example, lets say that in a situation I'm expected to react in a way, I would do exactly the opposite, not because it makes sense or it's logical but because I simply wanted to.

But when you make a decision, you do it because of something. Your principles, your mood, a chemical, such as alcohol in your blood etc. All these are matters influenced by external causes all and up to the genetics. If thinking equals brain-activity, with electrical and chemical impulses, then there is no doubt that they all have been stimulated by something to happen. Cause and effect, action and reaction.

In conclusion, we could debate on this subject endlessly without any result.

It certainly has been debated over for millennia. I suggest you to aquaint yourself to the writings of Richard Dawkins to see my point - I don't agree with him on everything, but his principles are sound.

Oh, and sorry Lightice, I may have been thinking of quantumn chaos theory.

I believe that you are referring to the uncertainity principle. Basically, that studying a quantum particle actively always leads to the change of said particle. Same way, the particle may appear to be in several different locations, at once. However, these are matters of mechanics, that are difficult, or perhaps impossible to study. This doesn't mean that they'd be completely random, however. Quantum mechanics is dependent on the possibility of predicting the reactions of these particles - as such, they follow certain mechanics, which, at least to the current human science, leave some room for uncertainity. However, that still doesn't mean that there is no logic behind them. I am not an expert on the matter, so some points I have stated may be somewhat out of context or even false, but the central point is sound - quantum mechanics is not random - just difficult to predict.

 

[IIgenTA]

"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents."

That's a line stolen from Call of Cthlulu, by H.P. Lovecraft. Terrible that the guy in the link provided didn't give credit where credit was due.

 

[Rizzo]

Well it kind off makes sence, if it werent for that article to be completely made up. I mean in the labratory part, and i dont realy belive him talking to people on chats or whatever. He made those conversations up.

But im all for the chaos theory, and 100% into cause and effect, action and reaction.


chaos FTW!