Gun Rights Victory!

[bliink]

Manufacturer's are in no way responsible, though.

It was in fact, the actions of a Manufacturer that created modern negligence laws!

My memory is a little rusty, but I think the case was Donoghue vs Stevenson.. this is what happened:

Manufacturer makes a bottled drink
--> Sells to retailer
---->Sells to customer
------>Gives to friend

Said drink had a snail in it, person sues. (this was back in the 20's or something too IIRC)

now, the question was, "to what degree does the manufacturer owe a duty of care to its customers?" In this case, it was found that although no contract existed between them, the manufacturer was negligent in its provision of a drink to the friend.

This is what the modern tort of negligence is based upon.

Now, you may notice, the structure is almost a carbon copy of the gun industry. With one exception.

For a direct copy, there would have to be a defective gun (for which the manufacturer is responsible.). In this case, its more like theres a dangerous product to begin with. A good comparison (albeit imperfect) is with cigarette companies.

Obviously, there is a good legal grey area there. Thats why its not as open & shut as you'd like it to be.

If a company makes a product that is designed to legally kill people, and customers use it to illegally kill people, is there a negligence case there?

Its kind of like (but isn't) CD burners. If you make a machine to legally copy discs, and people use it to illegally copy discs... whats the result?

 

[kirovman]

You're implying...ban CD writers?

 

[bliink]

You're implying...ban CD writers?

well, you cant, because of the VCR lawsuits of the early 90's/80's

one of the reasons they're different from guns...

 

[Jintor]

That's... really, really weird...

Precedent, precendent, precendent. Huh?

 

[>>FrEnZy<<]

I still completely disagree. The purpose of a manufacturer shouldnt be to mindless manufactur goods. The manufacturers are the ones that are making the money, so they should be the ones responsible for the negative externailities their products cause. Manufactures today dont give a shit whether or not their products are used for good or bad, all they care about is making money.

Take car manufacturers. They provide us with cars yes, but who builds the roads for those cars to be driven on? Shouldnt that be a price the manufacturers pay? The manufacturer is dumping the duty of building roads for the cars they sell, to the governments. Hence the negative externailty. WHat about all the pollution their vehicles produce? arent they responisble for that aswell? Why should I pay taxes, to help clear up the pollution and build the roads that car manufacturers are responsible for? What did I do to deserve building the roads for their cars and the cleaning the air that their products dirtied?

Its the same with guns, Why should my tax money be spent on extra police budget, when gun manufacturers are largely responsible for creating guns and thus intensifying crime?

 

[Sulkdodds]

Car manufacturers - good example. Is it their fault if I use their vehicle to deliberately run you over?

I'm against America's gun laws anyway but that's another debate for another time. It is not the manufacturer's fault if you kill someone with their gun.

 

[Direwolf]

Actually gun control laws and other issues have lost support in recent years due to their inefficiency

See the Assault Weapons Ban not being renewed.

I should probably edit that to say gun sanity, at least in my experience. People are much more aware of the problem these days and seem to take the matter much more seriously.

 

[SIGbastard]

Felons can't buy guns here so in that case it's taken care of, but I know what you're getting at. We also have 5 day waiting period for handguns.

But that's also a dealer issue too, and dealers need to be held accountable when they are doing such. Manufacturer's are in no way responsible, though.

There is no 5-day waiting period in states such as Arizona who use the instant background check system. Arizona is about the most gun friendly state in the nation.

Here in Oklahoma I have bought so many guns that it takes all of 5 minutes for me to be approved when they call in to the ATF/FBI (whoever they call) for a purchase. Also it is just a background check. Many people mistake it as a registration process. There is only a handful of states that require registration and they are all more liberal states.

I think I own about a dozen at the moment of which more than half are considered assault weapons but I'd have to go look in my safe and count. I end up selling alot of stuff which basically makes me lose money, but in the end I find exactly what works for me the best and then stick with it. I think I have my collection pretty much perfect for me except I'd like some more custom 1911's (a type of .45 pistol), but at $2000 plus I can't afford any more. On top of that I probably have around 5,000 rds of various types and calibers of ammo. I just picked up another 1000rd case of 5.56mm at the Tulsa Gun show for my AR15 and M4 (semi-auto). I am not a nut. I am in my first year of Dental School. I just have a hobby like many others have hobbies. I am a member at a private range and go shooting at least 2-3 times a month (although less now with the insane 26 credit hour semesters at Dental School). I do not fantasize about killing people when I shoot paper targets and tin cans.

I have purchased upwards of 20-25 guns in the last 4 years and it has never taken more than 20 minutes to get an approval and sometimes as little as 5 minutes. These days I mostly buy guns online because I kind find better deals. They have to be shipped to an FFL if they are purchased out of state (someone with a Federal Firearms License) in order for them to do the background check. I go to a guy that basically does the transfers/background checks at his house and charges all of $10. He's about the nicest honset gun dealer I have ever dealt with. The only drawback is his house smells like pure cat piss.

Gun laws really don't do anything to reduce gun crime. All they do is limit the ability of law abiding citizens like me to take part in my hobby or protect myself and my family. We are the only ones who will abide by them. A criminal will not care as he has already shown he has no intent to follow the law. An example is the signs that say no weapons allowed on many businesses. All it ensures is the only people in their carrying weapons will be criminals. Anyone with a concealed carry permit such as myself have gone through extensive FBI background checks, have our finger prints on file, are devoid of any drug or violence related convictions, etc. So basically it is a big sign for criminals saying "come rob this store" there will be nobody to stand in your way as everyone will be unarmed.

Look at countries like Switzerland. They require all able bodied males to keep full-auto type assault weapons in their home along with ammo. They have one of the lowest gun crime/violence rates in the world. The problem with gun crime in America is because of our society not the availability of an inanimate object. Our family vaules have been on the decline for a long time. We just have a problem with violence in general. I bet if there was a way for more families to have a stay at home parent crime would drop in the long term. More gun laws just ensures there will be less law abiding citizens that have guns. It will not affect a criminal who wants to buy a gun illegally. An armed society is a polite society.

Anyways sorry about the long post. I'm just bored and wanted to share my input.

 

[CptStern]

you couldnt possibly claim your guns are for protection

 

[Sulkdodds]

The problem with gun crime in America is because of our society not the availability of an inanimate object.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there (though I live in Britain so I couldn't really say).

But aren't most murders NOT committed by criminals? Aren't most murders committed by ordinary people who, up to the point where they actually kill someone, aren't criminals at all?

EDIT: Actually I think this is a debate for another thread entirely. :/

 

[SIGbastard]

you couldnt possibly claim your guns are for protection

Some are and others are for shits and giggles. I see no reason to validate them beyond that. When I can afford it I plan to buy pre-89 transferable machine guns. They are literally the best investment you can make. Since no machine guns have been registered for civilians since 89 the price for these transferable MG's has sky-rocketed. The price doubles almost every 4 years. A full auto M16 in the 80's that would cost someone like me $700-$800 now goes for about $12,000. I am only talking about registered transferable one's. Someone in law enforcement could go get new stuff with their departments permission for about the price of it's civilian legal semi-auto version.

There is a need to have the ability to protect one's family in my opinion. Some will say in "you live in Oklahoma." There is crime in Oklahoma just like anywhere else especially in the OKC metro area which is where I live. Women are raped, people are murdered weekly if not daily, businesses are robbed. There was a convenience store recently robbed for freaking lottery tickets this week. There are several registered sex offenders that live within one mile of my home. To ignore that and say there is no need for protection is ridiculous. I have a carry permit, but I am only allowed to use my gun as an absolute last resort. I can't simply shoot someone if they want to fight me. My life has to be in immenent danger if I don't want to do federal time.

Assault weapons are no different. I keep several 30rd AK-47 mags loaded in my safe/vault just in case. Look at the aftermath of Katrina. If some disaster happens there is not only a need for food and water, but also the need to protect your resources. I know that is an extreme example, but it is completely valid.

To be blunt though I need no reason. I like to shoot stuff up. It's fun. It is important for protection though.

 

[SIGbastard]

I just realized I made a small error. The machine gun ban was in 86. The 89 ban was a ban on the import of foreign made semi-auto assault weapons for civilians. There's to many stupid laws to keep track of.

 

[CptStern]

Some are and others are for shits and giggles. I see no reason to validate them beyond that. When I can afford it I plan to buy pre-89 transferable machine guns. They are literally the best investment you can make. Since no machine guns have been registered for civilians since 89 the price for these transferable MG's has sky-rocketed. The price doubles almost every 4 years. A full auto M16 in the 80's that would cost someone like me $700-$800 now goes for about $12,000. I am only talking about registered transferable one's. Someone in law enforcement could go get new stuff with their departments permission for about the price of it's civilian legal semi-auto version.

There is a need to have the ability to protect one's family in my opinion. Some will say in "you live in Oklahoma." There is crime in Oklahoma just like anywhere else especially in the OKC metro area which is where I live. Women are raped, people are murdered weekly if not daily, businesses are robbed. There was a convenience store recently robbed for freaking lottery tickets this week. There are several registered sex offenders that live within one mile of my home. To ignore that and say there is no need for protection is ridiculous. I have a carry permit, but I am only allowed to use my gun as an absolute last resort. I can't simply shoot someone if they want to fight me. My life has to be in immenent danger if I don't want to do federal time.

Assault weapons are no different. I keep several 30rd AK-47 mags loaded in my safe/vault just in case. Look at the aftermath of Katrina. If some disaster happens there is not only a need for food and water, but also the need to protect your resources. I know that is an extreme example, but it is completely valid.

To be blunt though I need no reason. I like to shoot stuff up. It's fun. It is important for protection though.

if you dont mind me asking, how old are you and do you have a family of your own?

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

There is no 5-day waiting period in states such as Arizona who use the instant background check system. Arizona is about the most gun friendly state in the nation.

Wow seriously? Knew we were the most fun friendly but as far as the background check thing goes I was not aware of that . Never been into handguns myself much, mainly rifles, but that's cool (I'm looking to try some out and such), less of hoops to jump through.

I should probably edit that to say gun sanity, at least in my experience. People are much more aware of the problem these days and seem to take the matter much more seriously.

Definately, but I could say on some levels irrationality has taken hold. I think we'd be well off if we had gun safety back around pushed a lot more than it ever was. People are growing afraid to touch a gun and campaign against safety programs because they see it as being pro gun, so they become not aware of what to do in a scenerio involving one, and so on. The NRA has a good program for children, Eddie Eagle. Having things like this shown to children at a young age mainly in school and such would be great.

Eddie Eagle also isn't at all political, he's got basic principles, if you come across a gun, Stop! Don't Touch! Get an Adult!

It builds on these main points and goes into further safety for children. At the very least that much should be known. Knowing how to handle a gun safely needs to be taught too. It'll decrease the accident rate.

 

[SIGbastard]

if you dont mind me asking, how old are you and do you have a family of your own?

I'm 24 years of age about to be 25. I have a wife of 3 1/2 years. My first son will be here in December. All my firearms are kept in a safe which weighs several hundred lbs and is bolted to the concrete slab foundation in my house from the inside. So neither my son or anyone else has access. I do keep one in my nightstand at night, but I will have to get an electronic lock box for that when my son starts walking. I wouldn't want to take any chances while he's a little kid.

I don't have paranoid delusions. I am not waiting for havoc to break out. I just simply live by the philosophy that you should try to be prepared for whatever you can especially if you are the man of the house. Mainly my guns are for my hobby, but they do serve as protection in case something goes bump in the night. I hope I never truly need them.

I'm in dental school so I'm not some hick. Before school started I worked with people with developmental disabilities for about 4 years. I am still friends with some of my clients. I promised one of them I'd come over next friday to play on his nintendo game cube with him.

There are lots of people in the States with the same hobby that are normal citizens. My best friend is a restaraunt manager and has much more firearms than I currently do.

 

[Flyingdebris]

sigbastard is a collector of guns, i don't see anything wrong with that.

Rakurai is right, the first step to gun safety is knowledge. If you know what a gun is capable of, how it works, and how to handle it, you will be significantly safer around them even if you have no plans on ever purchasing one.

 

[SIGbastard]

if you dont mind me asking, how old are you and do you have a family of your own?

CptStern,

I've come to the conclusion you are not from the US and if you are you are not from the south. If I am right don't try and understand.

I plan on going to Knob Creek this year. It's where the biggest civilian machine gun shoots in the country go on. There are people out there with explosives licenses. People shoot dynamite, have napalm, and all sorts of shit. Please even if you don't like this sort of stuff watch this video:
http://www.biggerhammer.net/videos/kcr_fall_2000.asf
There is nothing that looks even close to as much fun as that. It's not about hurting anyone. It just looks like a grand old time.

Really everyone watch this video. You really don't know what you are missing.

 

[SIGbastard]

Here's one more. It's much shorter with bigger explosions:
http://www.knobcreekshoot.com/images/videos/Machine Gun Mayhem300.wmv

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

CptStern,

I've come to the conclusion you are not from the US and if you are you are not from the south. If I am right don't try and understand.

I plan on going to Knob Creek this year. It's where the biggest civilian machine gun shoots in the country go on. There are people out there with explosives licenses. People shoot dynamite, have napalm, and all sorts of shit. Please even if you don't like this sort of stuff watch this video:
http://www.biggerhammer.net/videos/kcr_fall_2000.asf
There is nothing that looks even close to as much fun as that. It's not about hurting anyone. It just looks like a grand old time.

Really everyone watch this video. You really don't know what you are missing.

http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?t=94120

Check that thread out, I posted a ton of Knob Creek footage there. I'd like to oh so badly, but it's so expensive. Wish someone around here was a Class III owner to go there with

 

[Direwolf]

Our family vaules have been on the decline for a long time. We just have a problem with violence in general. I bet if there was a way for more families to have a stay at home parent crime would drop in the long term.

I've always agreed with this, and if thats the marker to go by then we're not doing too bad. Violent crime in the US is at the lowest its been in 30 years.