'Hello mum, this is going to be hard for you to read ...'

[Sheepo]

"Cowards die many times before their deaths; The valiant never taste of death but once.
Of all the wonders that I yet have heard, it seems to me most strange that men should fear;
Seeing that death, a necessary end, will come when it will come". Julius Caesar

 

[Qonfused]

Get that ****** out of here.

lolllllll'd

 

[Krynn72]

I see. I would disagree with you there, I think it very much is a principle sort of thing - or at least a lifestyle thing.

We disagree then. However, what do you mean when you say "a lifestyle thing." Are you talking about things like "wanting to see the world" and that kind of stuff? I do know that a lot of people join up for things like that, and I still disagree with their decision, because destruction tends to follow in a soldiers wake.

What else can it be? The military by definition of being a force to protect national interests is an instrument of political will.

It could simply be a peaceful organization. It could be a institution run with moral standards, an institution that is righteous in its actions bringing help to those who truly need it and defending our nation.

We have other means of forwarding our political agenda. Ones that dont involve killing people.

Have you ever stopped to think that you wouldn't have the lifestyle or the wealth that you presently enjoy if the US wasn't so aggressive in protecting its interests worldwide?

What did I gain from the war in Vietnam? I got Vietnam war movies and anti-communism propaganda shoved down my throat as a kid. What do I get from the war in Iraq? Cheaper gasoline and the responsibility of repaying the highest national debt ever accumulated in the history of mankind.

Now, I do know that many of the things I take for granted were paid for by the deaths of American soldiers. But they were also paid for by the deaths of our "enemies" who are nothing more than other people who disagreed with our nations views. If I could forgo the luxuries I have in my life in return for the lives of all those people who died along the way to luxury, I would. Perhaps I am an idealist, and perhaps I am one of few, but I do not believe I should benefit off the suffering and deaths of another person.

The Soviet Union was a massive superpower, with an extensive network of allies around the world. I completely disagree that there was no threat. There is no longer any threat as communism has failed, never to return in any credible form.

The Soviet Union was indeed a threat to us and the rest of the world. However, communism was not what we were threatened by. It was their power hungry government and their nervous nuclear trigger finger that threatened us.

And look! We survived without going to war with them. Fancy that.

You have to look at the bigger picture. If North Korea had won the war, the whole of Korea would now be a communist state. If North Vietnam had won the war, the same applies to that country.

As I said, had we actually been there fighting to save South Vietnam or South Korea, it would have been a just war. Our intentions and our actions however, were not inline with that reasoning, and thus it was an unjust war.

North Korea may be on the verge of being a failed state, but a war with them would still have catastrophic consequences for us and for South Korea.

Agreed.

War is cruel. It also never occurs between democratic nations. Food for thought.

As I said, War being cruel doesnt make it anything any more justified. And widespread democracy hasnt been around for very long so that doesnt say much.

 

[VirusType2]

Get that ****** out of here.

A 2pac quote is always appropriate! You betta recognize.

2pac is such great scholar....

He died! ...He died.

You don't understand.


...He died.

"Cowards die many times before their deaths; The valiant never taste of death but once.
Of all the wonders that I yet have heard, it seems to me most strange that men should fear;
Seeing that death, a necessary end, will come when it will come". Julius Caesar

I figured he was quoting someone else, but 2pac said it better because he used less words.

In the heat of battle, with swords swooshing past your head and glancing off your bullet proof breastplate, emblazoned shields of strength +3 clashing with a mighty bang, you might not have time for such grandiose speeches.

 

[Letters]

I sit down with my box of Kleenex and read the obituaries in the newspaper every day.

 

[Krynn72]

I figured he was quoting someone else, but 2pac said it better because he used less words.

I'll cut your ****ing cock off for saying 2pac said it better the god damn mother****ing Caesar.

 

[VirusType2]

I thought it would be obvious I wasn't serious. No sense threatening my penis.

 

[Krynn72]

Caesar says OFF WITH YOUR DICK!

 

[VirusType2]

I put on my robe and wizard hat.

 

[Krynn72]

I arm myself with my gladius and galea.

 

[VirusType2]

Your gladius acts as a lightning rod as I cast Lv50 Lightning. Your body explodes into a red mist of blood in a pile of scrap metal.

 

[lefty]

By the way, it was hard to read.

 

[VirusType2]

I don't think I would allow my son's farewell note to roam the internet personally.

 

[Hobostomp]

It can be tough on families, but I shudder to think of where our Western civilization would lie if what we felt to be good and purposeful for ourselves had to be roadblocked and curtailed to the family's emotional sensitivities. We are expected to come into our own. Even if it may be painful or distressing to loved ones, we should have the maturity of respecting and understanding one's choices in life. Never mind the practical results of not having an army, which you have thus far seem wholly unconcerned about.

That you're trying to spin military service as a guilt trip is not only pathetic, but backward.

Lets forget about the need for the army on a national and global scale for one moment. My point is that the decision by each individual to enlist in the army is inherently selfish because they are putting their families through anguish to either go get their cheap thrills, or else because of their inexplicably overwhelming sense of 'patriotism'. Isn't there a saying, something like 'charity begins at home'?

 

[Krynn72]

Lets forget about the need for the army on a national and global scale for one moment. My point is that the decision by each individual to enlist in the army is inherently selfish

Completely untrue. While I have made obvious what I think of many soldiers decisions to join the army, doing so is absolutely not inherently selfish. Many other soldiers do actually believe they're doing good and that their actions are morally right, and nobody should deny themselves their integrity for the sakes of others, even family.

Besides, your reasoning would imply is that death would also be selfish because of what if puts your family through. Taking risks with your life in any way is not inherently selfish.

 

[Unfocused]

Sad stuff.

More than the spelling, I was surprised at all the ****s and shits (well OK, shits not so much) he used in letters to his mother. It wouldn't be anything weird if it was to a friend, but to his mother? Maybe it's just me, but I refrain from swearing while communicating with my mom.

 

[Dr0ndeh]

i wonder what he thought he was fighting for.

the real tragedy is that he even joined the army in the first place.

 

[Eejit]

He obviously didn't die for nothing, he took his choices in life (the same kind of impetus that compels people to accomplish things like discovering America, inventing flight and putting a man on the moon - extraordinary choices which involve risk) and he ran out of luck. While he was alive, he lived the life that he had always wanted to. There is no inherent virtue in living a risk-free life.

If you avoid following your dreams for fear of death then you're not living, you're just existing. And contrary to common belief in this mollycoddled, pathetic modern world, the purpose of life is not to merely exist for as long as you can hang on.

Eh it's not as bad as it may seem to you as a biker. Other dangerous sports and hobbies are nowhere near as tightly regulated as those involving the road, presumably because they are potentially more dangerous to the uninvolved.
e.g. scuba diving, surfing (most watersports really), spelunking, absailing all have their dangers and are pretty popular.

 

[Hobostomp]

Besides, your reasoning would imply is that death would also be selfish because of what if puts your family through. Taking risks with your life in any way is not inherently selfish.

I don't understand how my reasoning implies this about death itself. But if a person puts himself/herself into a situation that they KNOW could kill them, then that is absolutely selfish.

 

[MJ12]

*if this was an American Soldier*

"GOES TO SHOW YOU HOW DUMB AMERICA IS AND THEY LOVE TO KILL IN WARS, CAN'T EVEN SPELL BUT U CAN SHOOT SOMEONE IN THE HED?!"

 

[repiV]

We disagree then. However, what do you mean when you say "a lifestyle thing." Are you talking about things like "wanting to see the world" and that kind of stuff? I do know that a lot of people join up for things like that, and I still disagree with their decision, because destruction tends to follow in a soldiers wake.

I thought it was self-explanatory. Wanting to lead the outdoorsy, adventurous lifestyle found in the military. There's a hell of a lot of opportunities you don't get as a civilian.

Well, like it or not, nations needs militaries. I don't see what your problem is. Also, it shouldn't take a rocket scientist to realise that frontline forces make up only a small percentage of military personnel.

It could simply be a peaceful organization. It could be a institution run with moral standards, an institution that is righteous in its actions bringing help to those who truly need it and defending our nation.

It is run with moral standards, and righteous in its actions. That's why military personnel are subject to a much harsher legal system than civilians are. They will get punished far worse than an ordinary citizen would for the same crime. And you won't get in unless you are of previous good character.

How the government decides to utilise the military has no bearing on the moral standards of the institution.

We have other means of forwarding our political agenda. Ones that dont involve killing people.

The military would still be an instrument of political will even if it were never deployed overseas.

What did I gain from the war in Vietnam? I got Vietnam war movies and anti-communism propaganda shoved down my throat as a kid. What do I get from the war in Iraq? Cheaper gasoline and the responsibility of repaying the highest national debt ever accumulated in the history of mankind.

I think you'll find that the US is and has been engaged in many more wars you have never heard of. Did you know that Britain has been at war somewhere every year since WW2 except 1962?

Now, I do know that many of the things I take for granted were paid for by the deaths of American soldiers. But they were also paid for by the deaths of our "enemies" who are nothing more than other people who disagreed with our nations views. If I could forgo the luxuries I have in my life in return for the lives of all those people who died along the way to luxury, I would. Perhaps I am an idealist, and perhaps I am one of few, but I do not believe I should benefit off the suffering and deaths of another person.

And that's a good point of view to have. It doesn't change the fact that the US military is doing what it's supposed to do in that respect - looking after your interests.

The Soviet Union was indeed a threat to us and the rest of the world. However, communism was not what we were threatened by. It was their power hungry government and their nervous nuclear trigger finger that threatened us.

I think you'll find that the root of the threat is the ideology. Look at the world now, almost all former communist states are now capitalist. Including Russia, and China. It could have gone the other way.

And look! We survived without going to war with them. Fancy that.

By going to war with Korea, and Vietnam, you were going to war with them.

As I said, had we actually been there fighting to save South Vietnam or South Korea, it would have been a just war. Our intentions and our actions however, were not inline with that reasoning, and thus it was an unjust war.

So it's ok to go to war to save another nation, but not to protect your own?

Agreed.

So you'll see that communist states pose more of a threat than you give them credit for. North Korea is in a terrible state and basically bankrupt, but they could still annihilate Seoul if they wanted to and inflict untold death and misery upon our forces and upon their neighbours. We would win the war, but at what cost? They put far more into their military than a healthy nation would.

As I said, War being cruel doesnt make it anything any more justified. And widespread democracy hasnt been around for very long so that doesnt say much.

Well, it does say a lot. No democratic nation has ever been at war with another democratic nation. Nor can I see any eventuality where that would happen.

Lets forget about the need for the army on a national and global scale for one moment. My point is that the decision by each individual to enlist in the army is inherently selfish because they are putting their families through anguish to either go get their cheap thrills, or else because of their inexplicably overwhelming sense of 'patriotism'. Isn't there a saying, something like 'charity begins at home'?

Who on earth are you to think you know the reasons why people would join the military? You have no idea what you're talking about, and you're incredibly condescending and patronising with it. That's the polite version.

i wonder what he thought he was fighting for.

the real tragedy is that he even joined the army in the first place.

How ****ing arrogant can you get?

Eh it's not as bad as it may seem to you as a biker. Other dangerous sports and hobbies are nowhere near as tightly regulated as those involving the road, presumably because they are potentially more dangerous to the uninvolved.
e.g. scuba diving, surfing (most watersports really), spelunking, absailing all have their dangers and are pretty popular.

I wasn't thinking so much about that. We had to do a risk assessment before I could start my job. I WORK AT A DESK! WHAT POSSIBLE RISKS COULD THERE BE?!

We have to sign in and out every day at work because of fire safety, and do fire drills. Our office is one room and there are five people in the office. When the building goes up in flames because we thought it would be a good idea to have a barbecue in the office, I'll be SO glad I've practiced walking out the front door in an orderly fashion. How would I have ever survived otherwise?!

How about people wanting to teach, help out at scouts, or even authors volunteering to read to kids at school, having to take a criminal records check at their expense - and under which, rumour and hearsay is admissable to the file? The cheek of it!

Or the barrage of health propaganda messages we're assaulted with every day by the government at our expense.

I could go on and on. Common sense went out the door a while back.

 

[repiV]

I don't understand how my reasoning implies this about death itself. But if a person puts himself/herself into a situation that they KNOW could kill them, then that is absolutely selfish.

You selfish bastard. How dare you drive a car.

 

[Hobostomp]

You selfish bastard. How dare you drive a car.

Oh stop it, you know what I mean.

 

[repiV]

Oh stop it, you know what I mean.

No, actually I don't. I ride a motorbike. It's statistically far more dangerous than being a frontline soldier, as is horse riding, scuba diving, skydiving, motor racing, snowboarding and many other hobbies and activities.

Are we all selfish for living our lives as we choose to? Or should you just stop being an intolerant whinger who can't understand that different people accept different levels of risk in their lives?

If we never did anything that we knew to be dangerous because we might upset our families (WTF), the human race would still be living in caves. It's because enterprising people through the generations have taken risks and paid with their lives for pushing forward human endeavour in various ways that you can enjoy the comfortable, safe, uneventful life you have today.

So maybe before you open your mouth, you should be thankful that there are risk-taking, adventurous, ambitious people out there, because without them you wouldn't be where you are today.

 

[Minister]

It's a very sad story, but as somebody said earlier, he was doing what he wanted to do.

I heard a statistic recently that said of the British infantry in Afghanistan, 10% have become casualties of war which is apparently only 2% lower than infantry casualties in World War 2.

 

[Hobostomp]

If we never did anything that we knew to be dangerous because we might upset our families (WTF), the human race would still be living in caves. It's because enterprising people through the generations have taken risks and paid with their lives for pushing forward human endeavour in various ways that you can enjoy the comfortable, safe, uneventful life you have today.

So maybe before you open your mouth, you should be thankful that there are risk-taking, adventurous, ambitious people out there, because without them you wouldn't be where you are today.

Well again, go find Cyrus's family and tell them that. It may make them feel better.

I think you're mistaking me. You're making me out to be all "I hate soldiers" and I don't. I'm glad they're out there, I recognise the need for an army and I'm grateful to be speaking English instead of Japanese or German, but all I'm saying is that when they make that decision to enlist in the army, they are thinking of noone but themselves.

 

[Skaadi]

So....when someone joins the army....you're saying they're not thinking about their country or the people they are protecting by fighting?

 

[repiV]

Well again, go find Cyrus's family and tell them that. It may make them feel better.

An emotive comment is not an argument.

I think you're mistaking me. You're making me out to be all "I hate soldiers" and I don't. I'm glad they're out there, I recognise the need for an army and I'm grateful to be speaking English instead of Japanese or German, but all I'm saying is that when they make that decision to enlist in the army, they are thinking of noone but themselves.

Damn right. What kind of pussy makes their critical life decisions based on what anyone else wants? And what kind of tyrant would try and deny someone they supposedly care about the life they want to lead?

Now that's selfish - stopping someone from following their dreams because it might upset you. It was probably his sole ambition in life to be a soldier since a young age. Who is anyone else to deny him that?

 

[nurizeko]

And killing in war is not murder.

That's what war veterans keep telling themselves. I'm sure the whole PTS and other psychological issues have nothing to do with the act of ending another persons life.

There is no inherent virtue in living a risk-free life.

I reject your premise based on the fact I am alive and quite content with that life while this fella is now dead, and he no longer exists to feel anything.

Game, set, match, me. My genes will be carried on, his are consigned to oblivion. Good for him. :cheers:

Really though, this notion going off and dying for nothing is not heroic, its not noble, you've protected nothing. Except maybe the gene pool.

 

[Hobostomp]

Damn right. What kind of pussy makes their critical life decisions based on what anyone else wants? And what kind of tyrant would try and deny someone they supposedly care about the life they want to lead?

Now that's selfish - stopping someone from following their dreams because it might upset you. It was probably his sole ambition in life to be a soldier since a young age. Who is anyone else to deny him that?

Huh? What are you on? Noone stopped him from doing anything... he went, he's dead, go Cyrus. I'm just sharing my opinion.

 

[Skaadi]

I think what he was getting at that people in general shouldnt be stopped from doing the things that they are passionate about, even if those things are risk filled, simply because it might upset someone else, he wasn't referring to you personally.

 

[Hobostomp]

Well whatever, it doesn't upset me, he's gone and while it's sad, he's certainly not my hero. Anyway I've had enough now... the argument has become so much bigger than my original point.

R.I.P Cyrus.

 

[Eejit]

I wasn't thinking so much about that. We had to do a risk assessment before I could start my job. I WORK AT A DESK! WHAT POSSIBLE RISKS COULD THERE BE?!

We have to sign in and out every day at work because of fire safety, and do fire drills. Our office is one room and there are five people in the office. When the building goes up in flames because we thought it would be a good idea to have a barbecue in the office, I'll be SO glad I've practiced walking out the front door in an orderly fashion. How would I have ever survived otherwise?!

How about people wanting to teach, help out at scouts, or even authors volunteering to read to kids at school, having to take a criminal records check at their expense - and under which, rumour and hearsay is admissable to the file? The cheek of it!

I could go on and on. Common sense went out the door a while back.

Eh to be fair I think that's more a case of covering ones ass against retarded lawsuits than lack of common sense.

 

[repiV]

That's what war veterans keep telling themselves. I'm sure the whole PTS and other psychological issues have nothing to do with the act of ending another persons life.

PTSD has nothing whatsoever to do with the definition of murder.

I reject your premise based on the fact I am alive and quite content with that life while this fella is now dead, and he no longer exists to feel anything.

Game, set, match, me. My genes will be carried on, his are consigned to oblivion. Good for him. :cheers:

And yet if he was living your life, he surely wouldn't be content with it because we're all driven by different things. I would have joined the military if I didn't have epilepsy. It has absolutely nothing to do with patriotism or believing in any cause, it's because I'd love to live an extraordinary life and this merciless 9-5 routine that we're forced to comply with drives me nuts. Having to go to places like Iraq sometimes is the price you pay for getting all these chances from the military. In other times, many people serve for decades without ever seeing battle.

Really though, this notion going off and dying for nothing is not heroic, its not noble, you've protected nothing.

He didn't go off to die, did he? For every Cyrus, there are many more that went and did what he did, and lived to tell the tale - and wouldn't have had it any other way. Sometimes, we pay the price for our choices in life - but it doesn't mean that the choice was wrong.

I nearly killed myself just five months after I started riding bikes. Nearly two years later I still can't do anything more strenuous than walking, and my leg will never be the same again. I regret crashing that day, but I've never once regretted taking up biking - and I was back on a bike the moment I could bear enough weight to be able to ride one.

I am aware that some day I may die doing what I love. I do everything that I can to minimise that possibility while still enjoying my passion. But I will never give it up, there would be a void in my life without it. I suspect this is exactly the same thought process that drives soldiers, deep sea divers, explorers and other people who live dangerous lives.

Perhaps by illustrating how I feel about it, you can gain a little perspective on why people make the choices that they do, and that it's not due to ignorance.

Except maybe the gene pool.

You're actually being quite insulting with this gene pool bullshit.

 

[repiV]

Eh to be fair I think that's more a case of covering ones ass against retarded lawsuits than lack of common sense.

I'm not sure about the risk assessment, but the fire register and fire drills are by law. As are the CRB checks etc.

The point is though that this is the direction our society has taken. We don't let kids play outside or learn to be independent because there's obviously a peadophile on every corner. Hence why today's young adults are getting more and more idiotic.

In every aspect, we live in a society that increasingly values maximum safety to the exclusion of all else. It's not healthy.

 

[Escaep]

I don't understand how my reasoning implies this about death itself. But if a person puts himself/herself into a situation that they KNOW could kill them, then that is absolutely selfish.

You can't think like that. Heck, when I drive my truck I know it could kill me. Going outside I know I could be struck down by a lightning bolt or kidnapped by aliens. Life is inherently dangerous and anything could kill you, but that doesn't mean the actions you take are selfish. If we all lived under the thought that "I don't want to do this action because it could kill me and put my family in worry" nothing would ever get done. People wouldn't drive/walk to work because these can kill you just as easily as being at war.

 

[15357]

For ****s sakes, some of you need to ****ing realize that there exists something that is far more important than any one of your (or mine) miserable lives.



It has been my belief that impiety (to one's parents) is the worst of all sins as taught by my ancestors, but I also have that belief that it is pardonable, and acceptable in the line of one's duty. A duty to your goddamn nation, a duty to the sacred State, a duty to the land that brought you into this world. A duty to humanity, and the common ideals that we believe in, the ideals which are fundamental to humanity, freedom, justice, and equality.

Thos are the goddamned things that are important, and I can only hope that I am granted the courage by my creator (although an asshole he might be) to willingly give my life for those things that I believe in.




So, in all, you really need to get your damnned priorities straight.



"Blessed be the soldier who gives all ... for the common good."
-Abraham ****ing Lincoln



edit: Jesus Christ what did I just write? Why did I swear so much?

 

[mechanicallizard]

'And those men afraid to go will think themselves lesser men as they hear of how we fought and died together.'

Shakespeare ftw.

Seriously though i agree with numbers.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Of course, the character who says that also wins a battle by threatening to turn his soldiers loose on the civilians inside. Having achieved the throne through trickery, deceit and betrayal, he goes on to persecute a dirty and squalid war in which vast suffering is visited on the common people of both nations - ostensibly for the good of each country, but ultimately for the benefit of their leaders.

 

[Dr0ndeh]

How ****ing arrogant can you get?

it wasnt arrogance, it was pity.