Is this guy correct?

Brian Damage

Brian Damage

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Not sure if this is the right forum for this, but anyway:

Modeling article at traptown

Is this guy just a MAX fanboy, or should we all listen to what he's saying about not using XSI, gMAX or others (near the end of the article)...?

I need to sort out which modeling proggy I'm going to use, so is kind of important to me...
 
You might want to get used to XSI because, from what I understand, it's going to be the main modelling program for HL2.
 
Use Lightwave!


honestly, you'll all find it much easier than you will XSI, XSI ain't for n00bs as the kiddies say :)
 
I wuv XSI. I wuv Max more! I need Max. I wish I had the $$.
 
Point is, basically XSI is Valve's app of choice.. but you can use Max, Maya, Lightwave, probably even Truespace and C4D. Softimage would just like you to use their software, though where the hell they think kids are gonna find the thousands to pay for it is beyond me :(
 
Well, most kids are students. And there are student discounts. Still too steep for me.
 
In the end I doubt it matters what you use for HL2 or any other game.

And really, he doesn't seem like a max fan boy;

"Yep. Now, 3D Studio MAX isn’t exactly the number one choice for modders, being that it was designed for studios that can afford multiple licenses and such. That being said, 3D Studio MAX is the industry standard for game studios, and there is no point to argue about it."


Jesus Christ, this is an absolute 100% fact. 3D Studio Max, long ago, offered a good product for like 1/3 the cost of every other program out there. So what did game companies do? Got the license and people who knew how to run it.

But today? Max has changed very little and it uses an archaic interface and control scheme that only a retarded monkey could design. Now, every other 3D program is competitively priced and they keep up with the times, unlike Max so it just pains me to see new studios popping up and using such a clunky product.

But facts are facts; those old studios that got a deal on max long ago have spent the last 4-10 years using it, their entire art staff knows it, they have programmed their own plug ins and scripts, their tech support knows every inch of it; to change now is almost impossible.

And really I think what program people prefer is what they have been most successful in, the fact is they are all very capable of the same things, but they are designed for different people.

In my opinion:


3D Studio Max: Ok, I do have a little bit of a negative view on Max. I took one of those grand, bull s@#$, "game art" programs you hear about so much lately(more on that later) and by the sound of my view on the program, I might have to blame the education for my hatred.

I found it clunky and not easy to use, I understand it completely, but the interface was not user friendly and content creation seemed to be slow for me. I went back to max a month ago hoping to see a revolution of changes like SoftImage went through (updated for today's artists, not yesterdays) and nothing has changed other then more useless preset content and some add-ons to keep max in the game. However nothing done with usability and to help someone actually work in it. That's four years with little progress.... they are falling behind.

Maya: My experience in Maya is the most limited, however I have people swear by it, even my own classmates. I believe it's on par with SoftImage XSI, and both programs have features that nudge them over the other. The main feature about Maya I hear is that it's stable as hell, it hardly crashes and your work doesn't get corrupted very often... which would be nice. Maya doesn't update as much as they used to(so I am told) but it has a workflow method for this decade unlike Max.

SoftImage XSI: Again, I am a bit biased, but the next line is can be seen quoted by any industry professional who has taken the time to compare. "SoftImage XSI is without a doubt, the easiest program to learn and generate lots of a content very quickly.

SoftImage 3d has a negative view of, well, being like what I said Max is; however SoftImage XSI is a new complete overhaul they did a couple years ago and it truly shows they have todays technology in mind. The interface is fast and easy, the poly modeling tools are the best(though we could use some new ones) the animation tools are great, and after seeing the HL2 videos on using normal mapping and such and going through it like a tutorial, it's added some really nice, extremely easy to use game functions with in it to add game shaders onto your models.

Negative views are that XSI crashes, it was bad in 2.0+, it was stable as hell(comparatively) in 3.0+, however the new 3.5+ has made it back to a crashy/corrupt your data prone program which isn't that fun.

If you want to learn XSI to get a job in the industry, don't hold your breath. It isn't used. I know, it's sad, it's very capable to do things well and quickly saving studios lots and lots of money, but no one uses it. Mostly due to the fact that I mentioned they have been using something else for years and are too deep in with those other programs. Though for new studios I wholly recommend it; seeing new studios go with Max and then seeing that their models, animation, overall game just blows, I have to wonder what it would have been like if they used a more efficient program that would have cut time and costs so they could polish their graphics.

Nurbs, I hear they are great in Maya, but absolutely are 100% useless in XSI... in fact you can almost induce crashing by just making a nurb and adding an iso.

Of course there are more, but they are nit picking you could do with anything...


Final Thoughts: Ok the thread isn't about this, but he mentioned it over in the article to take a "Game Art" course. For the love of God don't do it. Not to say it won't work out, but at schools like Full Sail the game art program is nothing more then a way to dupe people in taking a half assed animation program that talks about games.

If your going to go to one of these schools take the high end 3D stuff for tv/movies; because guess what, those people want to go into games too and when they can produce these super realistic/high res characters with all the tricks from the tv/movie industry that ranges in the 400,000 quad polygon limit(ala the stuff that was released on Quake 4 that they will be uses as a base for normal maps); it isn't hard to make a 1000 character.

And the facts are, times are changing. I couldn't be told enough when I was at school(a second time doing tv/movie style stuff) to do high res characters simply because that is where the game industry is heading. Can we do 400k poly limit on a character today? No, but companies still need someone to do those high res characters to get the normal map information from them to slap them on a 2000 poly character. And while this may be more applicable to things like the new Doom engine and the Farcry engine, it makes sense to use it for the time being now and in future games.


So that's just my opinion and excuse anything that doesn't make sense, as I just woke up and sentece structure might not be coherent... I honestly don't want to read it over to make corrections, lol.
 
No, no that was very helpful... I think I'll just get the free version of XSI when I can run it, then...

EDIT: Oh, it is, Fenric?

I'm going crazy here. Someone explain it aaaaaaaaallllll!
 
Brian Damage said:
No, no that was very helpful... I think I'll just get the free version of XSI when I can run it, then...

EDIT: Oh, it is, Fenric?

I'm going crazy here. Someone explain it aaaaaaaaallllll!
Click to expand...
He's speaking on behalf of an Industry he has no intimate knowlege of. How does he know XSI isn't used anywhere, thats a bit silly when many companies including ILM are well known for using XSI, Maya Lightwave and I believe Houdini in some cases.

My advice, use whatever your comfortable with, HL2 will need files in a certain format to use, and most apps out there that are any good can save in the majority of formats. If it requires a specific XSI format such as its own, use the demo to convert and clean up

If your comfotable in Max, use Max, if you prefer Maya use that.
 
The free version of XSI it is.

I wouldn't even be able to afford any student versions :E.
 
I WANT MAX!! Argh! I am d/ling it! This price bullshit is ****ing crazy. $3000 ****ing dollars for a ****ing computer program?!!?! BULL****INGSHIT!!!1 :cat:
 
Iyt doesn't really matter what prog you use max, xsi, maya. It's 100% dependent on the dude pushing the mouse.

Personally I think XSI is the prog of the future.
 
That's what I'm going with, then.

ray: Mmmmmmfffmmfmfm mfmmmmgggggmmggmfmf mmmmfmfmfmmmffllll!

EDIT: Does anyone know what the limits on the free version of XSI are, then?
 
Modelling is not about whats the best program, its about personal prefrence. Each program has a very different work flow and way of doing things. When it comes to games modelling any 3d program can be used it jsut depends how much u like the program and feel comfertable with it. I profer XSI because of its file systems, but I cba to learn everything over again so I just stick with 3dsmax. 3dsmax is quick and easy to do things.
 
I'm more worried about whether or not it's going to be possible to transfer the files I make to HL2's format...
 
Blender is terrible. Gamespace I have never tried. It is $200 though.
 
Just stick with one of the following

Max
Maya
XSI
Lightwave

and you'll be fine, those play nice together and each have a large enough pro user base that will ensure if you need a plugin for doing something, someone will be able to do one or one will exist already

Don't jump back and forth though while your learning, pick one and stick with it and invest your time and money in that one until your competent, then worry about learning other apps if you really want to. But unless your doing it as a career and the work you bring in covers purchases of all kinds of apps, there's not much need to know all of them. Just try the demo's of the ones above, whichever you like the most, use that. As IchI said, he prefers XSI but is sticking with Max as he doesn't need to use XSI to do what he wants to do and would simply spend time learning it that he would better spend on using the app he already knows how to use.
 
The fact XSI is used nowhere in the *gaming industry* is no hersay, it's a damn fact. Trust me, 6 months trying to find a job in the gaming industry and over 200+ companies and most of the time the jobs I was qualified for didn't get simply because I didn't know Max or Maya. The only company I came in contact with that used XSI for gaming was EA.
 
Jaenos said:
The fact XSI is used nowhere in the *gaming industry* is no hersay, it's a damn fact. Trust me, 6 months trying to find a job in the gaming industry and over 200+ companies and most of the time the jobs I was qualified for didn't get simply because I didn't know Max or Maya. The only company I came in contact with that used XSI for gaming was EA.
Click to expand...
Ouch, you couldn't get a job in over 200 companies in six months. Thats... pretty bad. You sure this is the sort of job you should be trying for?
 
To my knowlege, XSI is the prefered tool for those who want to have an easy to go at, and effecient as hell... i prefer it 10 times over both 3dsmax and maya.

oh and fenric, he stated that it was because of the fact tat he uses XSI...please stop being an ass at every oportunity(sorry if i have misjudged you, but it seems so, to me)
 
Nostradamus said:
To my knowlege, XSI is the prefered tool for those who want to have an easy to go at, and effecient as hell... i prefer it 10 times over both 3dsmax and maya.

oh and fenric, he stated that it was because of the fact tat he uses XSI...please stop being an ass at every oportunity(sorry if i have misjudged you, but it seems so, to me)
Click to expand...
yes you misjudged me ;(

There are hundreds of XSI users having no problems getting work. If someone is experienced in XSI then they can quite easily handle the other apps after a short time practicing on them, same goes for advanced Max, LW, Maya users, in the games industry or others.

A prospective employee who has the talent the company is looking for, will get the job if he's good enough and be trained up, companies don't expect everyone to have the funds for learning all the packages out there, its not possible for 90% of the people. A company wont turn someone away just because they haven't happened to use an app that for all intents and purposes is not very different from the one their using. Companies turn applicants away if they don't need to hire anyone or if they simply are not good enough.

Maybe turning people down because they hadn't used a particular program was a problem a few years ago. But these days its not, if someone is talented they can learn a new app easily, especially when surrounded by other talented people who can help you out without having to spend ages on every little thing, since you already know much of it, your basically getting used to a different UI, the rest will just come naturally. A polygon is still a polygon in whatever app you use. Points are points, scale, transform and rotate. keyframes and bones. It's no hardship learning a new program once you've mastered another high end app. You just need a time to get used to it, like switching from an automatic to a gearshift.

By the sounds of it you think its a great app, as do I and I use a lot in my work, I find it flexible and little need to search for plugins and addons as with some effort it can pretty much do everything I need from it. Blaming XSI simply sounds like an excuse for why over 200 companies don't want to hire him. Which is why I asked, is it really the career for him. I wasn't being rude, its a perfectly sensible question, which in many interviews you'd be asked anyway, but if he can't handle a simple question like that then he really isn't ready for this kind of work, so many think they want to do work like this for a living, thinking its always a lot of fun, which of course its not, ok sometimes it can be great fun, but not always. Its very hard work, its not always the most rewarding job, when starting out you often have to things you don't enjoy, its far from glamorous and isn't for everyone.

Sorry you misunderstood though :(
 
Fenric, we weren't talking about companies hiring someone who has skills but happens to know XSI, we were talking about companies that actually use XSI.

Yeah it's true, modeling principles are exactly the same in every program. While it's a great fantasy to think that it doesn't matter what programs you don't know (Which is probably the case for those luck 10% who has crazy skills, but for the rest of us that aren't "the best" it does matter very much)

Consider this, your a company looking for a modeler to start producing models for your time/money budgeted project, you need this guy to stay on track and bust out models from day 1. You won't take a chance on someone who doesn't know the program you use in that case, unless he's a good friend or has the most insane portfolio you've seen. It is way too risky to bring someone on the team who doesn't know the program and may not be able to perform what you need the first week; it's way too risky and companies won't do it.

But we are getting off topic.


Edit: And no, I am not blaming XSI, but I can tell you, if I had done my reel in Max or Maya things MAY be different. You don't think asking a person who has invested money, time, and every possible effort to achieve a dream "might be wrong for them" isn't rude, you seriously need a lesson in manners, but I won't even go further because it would simply get out of hand. I would very much like to know what you have accomplished in the world of game development to be able to bestow such motivating advice to people trying to break in.

To put it simply I believe I am good enough for almost any company out there and yet I still can't get a job. You would be blind to not wonder why, but to simply give up because of an initial bump would be ludicrous.
 
Ok well tell you what Jaenos.. I hire people, I own a number of studios, have been in the business for years, I've worked for people, I've got people working for me. I know the sorts of things other employers are looking for.

So send to me what you send to other companies, just pretend im one of them and I will give you my complete and honest opinion, but I wont just send some shitty unhelpful letter like we all do usually, thats no real help to you in this case. I'll go into detail on all of it and offer as much advice as I can. Depending on the quality of your work it might be a good response it might be a bad response, I don't want you at any point though thinking I'm being unfairly cruel in that case. I'm just not going to lie to you, if your work isn't upto scratch I will tell you and point out how it can be improved. If I told you it was great work and it wasn't. I wouldn't be helping you much would I :)

We'll do this via email as its nobody's business but yours and mine and I've no intention of publicly humiliating anyone, it serves no purpose. I wont be biased and I've ignored your comments about me, your angry its understood, all in the past to me. I'll simply treat you like I would anyone applying for a job accept I'll give you a proper in depth reply. Heck if your any good I'll hire you myself!. I've trained people before too, its fun and I enjoy it, and if your any good I'm gonna want you working for me, not the competition :D

That ok by you?

Send your stuff to [email protected]
 
Fenric said:
Ouch, you couldn't get a job in over 200 companies in six months. Thats... pretty bad. You sure this is the sort of job you should be trying for?
Click to expand...
Ohhhhhh SNAP

Sorry, I had to do it.
 
hmm.... i dunno if u noticed but sofimage are a ****ing massive company. I dought very much that not many companies use it because they make the pkp for xbox. Which I am guessing nearly all xbox games creaters might use. They also have loads of animation software. In terms of power, I thought XSI was better than 3dsmax 5. Dunno about 3dsmax 6 not saying that there is XSI 4.0 I hardly know anything about any of the programs, but if I had to pick one that looks and flows more proffesional it would be XSI. But 3dsmax is kinda simple and hates sorting files.
 
Max $3,500
XSI $4,000 (plus no need for any pluggins to make it work)

umm....
 
Besides once you know the concepts behind 3d modeling, the actual modeling engines are very similar in most progs just the implementation and UI differs, which with a bit of study can be overcome quite quickly.

Jeanos, are you applying and saying you only know XSI? why in the world? Get your hands on a copy of max and maya and after 2 weeks to a month you'll be fluent in both. (Assuming you're good with XSI)

Also how are you applying? I assume you have a nice demo reel, make sure you show some high poly work. Low poly isn't that hard and often doesn't get people very exited. Plus it's extremely hard to show of any artistic ability and imagination in low poly.

But you're probably more experienced than I am...

:afro:
 
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