Legally why they had to Fake the "hack"

You quote this source:

VU Games president of international operations, Christophe Ramboz, blamed the now-infamous source code theft for the delay. "A third of the source code was stolen," said Ramboz. "It's serious because it forces us to delay the launch of the game by at least four months--to April 2004."

Nice how you quote a source that says that only a third of the code was leaked when it was infact much much more. So already your source of information is suspect.

I also like how you keep avoiding my question. As I said before, unless you explain why valve would allow the leak of their source code you don't have any valid argument.
 
Neutrino said:
You quote this source:



Nice how you quote a source that says that only a third of the code was leaked when it was infact much much more. So already your source of information is suspect.

I also like how you keep avoiding my question. As I said before, unless you explain why valve would allow the leak of their source code you don't have any valid argument.

No one is avoiding anything, I told you already to read my first post, it explains it all out right there, and to say "your source of information is suspect" is just dumb. Hes quoted all over the internet. Hes a President at VU, he knows what hes talking about.
 
Games get delayed all the time. It's a rare event when one isn't, especially one with this much hype to live up to.

Why would valve need to generate an elaborate, bizarre and thouroughly illegal deception to excuse their delay... and then announce that they were delaying the game for legitimate, unrelated reasons anyways?

So, um, this conspiracy theory has successfully revealed that:
Claims that Valve did not make are evidence of an FBI conspiracy, in which Valve and the United States Government teamed up to commit an attack against themselves that would be lastingly harmful to both, all so that Valve could recieve funds that they could have gotten through legitimate means with much less effort?

:x

Edit: Oh yeah, just because it's quoted all over the internet, it must be true. How could it be otherwise?
 
amneziac85 said:
No one is avoiding anything, I told you already to read my first post, it explains it all out right there, and to say "your source of information is suspect" is just dumb. Hes quoted all over the internet. Hes a President at VU, he knows what hes talking about.

Wow, just wow. I have read through your whole first post that supposedly "expalins all". Well it doesn't explain the question that I asked you. First off, do you even know what the terms "source code" mean? You seem to be confusing it with some kind of demo or something. You can't play the source code as you seem to imply. It's the core programming behind the game engine that they built. It is the code they will liscense to other companies for large sums of money so they can use it to make their own games. The leak of the "beta" was small change compared to the leak of the source code. No company would ever, ever leak their source code for any reason. So as I said before you need to explain how that was leaked by valve before your argument begins to make any sort of sense.

Also, you missed my entire point about the quote you used. You say that since he is the president of VU "he knows what he is talking about". Well how come in the quote that you used he says something that wasn't true? I'm not saying he lied, but he obviously didn't have all the information and thus that is why I say you cannot rely on everything he says.

I would suggest you go do some more research and present a better argument before just coming back and saying "read my first post, it explains everything." when it clearly does not.
 
Mechagodzilla said:
Games get delayed all the time. It's a rare event when one isn't, especially one with this much hype to live up to.

Why would valve need to generate an elaborate, bizarre and thouroughly illegal deception to excuse their delay... and then announce that they were delaying the game for legitimate, unrelated reasons anyways?

So, um, this conspiracy theory has successfully revealed that:
Claims that Valve did not make are evidence of an FBI conspiracy, in which Valve and the United States Government teamed up to commit an attack against themselves that would be lastingly harmful to both, all so that Valve could recieve funds that they could have gotten through legitimate means with much less effort?

:x


Some people...sheesh....Ill say it again...Read the message board before you post, your asking why to questions that were answered in the big original post. I hate that, people always jump to the responding before actually reading all the posts. But please do.
 
I read your original post, but it does not change the fact that Valve has stated specifically that the game was not done, and that is why it was delayed.

How does your first post deal with that?

The source code is obviously something that needed to be dealt with, but they were going to delay the game anyways, so why all the black ops conspiracy huey to create a deception that was never implemented!

Be more cocky once you're making sense, please.

Oh yeah, and one reason why people don't want to read that brick of text in your much-balleyhooed first post:
The lack of paragraphs makes it a real bitch to read.
 
Did it ever occur to you that the leak was not faked and there was a contract between Valve and ATI that gave Valve the right to delay the game and not be liable for damages to ATI? If i was ATI i would certainly have taken that risk and signed up with the HL2 coupon deal.
 
Neutrino said:
Wow, just wow. I have read through your whole first post that supposedly "expalins all". Well it doesn't explain the question that I asked you. First off, do you even know what the terms "source code" mean? You seem to be confusing it with some kind of demo or something. You can't play the source code as you seem to imply. It's the core programming behind the game engine that they built. It is the code they will liscense to other companies for large sums of money so they can use it to make their own games. The leak of the "beta" was small change compared to the leak of the source code. No company would ever, ever leak their source code for any reason. So as I said before you need to explain how that was leaked by valve before your argument begins to make any sort of sense.

Also, you missed my entire point about the quote you used. You say that since he is the president of VU "he knows what he is talking about". Well how come in the quote that you used he says something that wasn't true? I'm not saying he lied, but he obviously didn't have all the information and thus that is why I say you cannot rely on everything he says.

I would suggest you go do some more research and present a better argument before just coming back and saying "read my first post, it explains everything." when it clearly does not.

The original post explains why they would leak the source, stop being so anal, why dont you show me an article where it explicitly says MORE then a third was stolen. Your talking about what the supposed hacker has said, the person who claims to be the hacker claims to have stolen much more then a third. Please do your research bud.
 
amneziac85 said:
The original post explains why they would leak the source, stop being so anal, why dont you show me an article where it explicitly says MORE then a third was stolen. Your talking about what the supposed hacker has said, the person who claims to be the hacker claims to have stolen much more then a third. Please do your research bud.

Nevermind...your immpossible to even have a logical argument with. I am NOT being anal. The difference between a leaked "beta" and a leaked source is HUGE. If you can't see that than your not in a position to be making these arguments. Also, try looking around the web a little and do your own research. The statement about a third of the source code being leaked has been shown to be wrong.

Also, did you ever stop to wonder why EVERY SINGLE PERSON in this thread disagrees with you? There is a point at which egotism starts interfering with rational thought you know.
 
Sigh.

-Valve has stated specifically that the game was not done.

-The source code was released over the internet, and downloaded by thousands. Obviously, people would know if it were only a third or not.

-ATI would not sue the biggest company that is most likely to make the biggest profits this year for any amount.

-Your first post deals with none of this!
So, if you're going to say that it's all covered in your first post, then please do us all a favour and quote the relevant section in any responses you make. No one really wants to read that, let alone re-read it.
 
Mechagodzilla said:
I read your original post, but it does not change the fact that Valve has stated specifically that the game was not done, and that is why it was delayed.

How does your first post deal with that?

The source code is obviously something that needed to be dealt with, but they were going to delay the game anyways, so why all the black ops conspiracy huey to create a deception that was never implemented!

Be more cocky once you're making sense, please.

Oh yeah, and one reason why people don't want to read that brick of text in your much-balleyhooed first post:
The lack of paragraphs makes it a real bitch to read.


Wheres the article we can all quote that says the game would have been delayed anyway? And there are two paragraphs, if you or anyone else has a problem reading it, they shouldnt post. They should instead go back to their 8th grade teacher and file a complaint.

Instead of being a flamer and talking fluff, you should give me a fact as to why what I have spelled out wouldnt work. My post is based on facts, knowledge of the industry and speculation. But if you cant give me a fact as to why something I wrote is wrong, your only speculating.
 
I still see NO quotes, articles...anything to back up anything you guys are saying...If I can provide links, so can you.
 
amneziac85 said:
.....your only speculating.


Exactly....just like you are.

(Oh and it's "you're" by the way. Just for future reference on those 8th grade spelling bees.....sorry couldn't resist)
 
One way or another they get into this deal with ATI, its not known if ATI went to them with the offer coupons deal but they did eventually get into it with one another. So ATI basically pulls up with a truck load of money and says "Here, we'll put coupons in our boxes for HL2 and you can have all these millions of dollars". Sure anyone can see that they could have just told ATI the release date was bullsh*t, but one of the first rules of business is "A bird in the hand is better then two in the bush" let alone one in the bush in this case. So Valve agrees this and chalks it up as easy money, after all, they wouldnt have wanted Doom 3 to get this offer from ATI if they turned it down. So all is well until the release date starts to creep closer and Valve knows damn well it wont be ready in time. So do they tell ATI "Hey, turns out it wont be ready for another year...sorry"? Hell no, for the fact that saying the game "Just isnt done" and wont be for another year would mean a lawsuit by ATI because they were told the same thing we were, that they were finishing up meaning the game was done except for some minor things, because if you remember, ALLL the way up until the source was stolen, they were saying that the game would make its release date. You cant suddenly be a month from release then whoa hey delay it by a year. ATI would sue you saying you knew this the whole time and lied for their money, end of story. So they needed an excuse to delay it, its the difference between First Degree Premeditated Manslaughter and Third Degree Accidental. Its the difference between a lawsuit where you would have to give back all the money plus ALOT more and break your new friendship with ATI (which could seriously hurt you on many levels, use your imagination) and getting free publicity while being able to keep the money and keep the train moving. So they realease a source, that they know will be very hard to get, that if youve played it, reveals very little about the story, is ugly and clunky. I think its obvious, but let me know what you guys think.

That's the thing I'm talking about. It's an eyesore.
 
Neutrino said:
Exactly....just like you are.

(Oh and it's "you're" by the way. Just for future reference on those 8th grade spelling bees.....sorry couldn't resist)

O I didnt know this was one...>your< being a child now by correcting spelling hiccups on a message board. Your arguement has no merit so you flame. Buddy, come up with some facts to back up why what Ive said isnt true or dont post. Thanks tho, its the thought that counts. :)
 
But to everyone, stop it with the fluff posts, if you have nothing educated to say, dont post, its not appreciated.
 
Um, correcting your spelling isn't 'flaming' of any sort. We're just trying to make it easier to understand your rants.

Actually, upon reflection, these little grammar tips are likely the most 'educated' things here.

The more you know!
 
Since as you claim yourself, "all the answers are in your first post", I shall respond to that in full and thus address every point that you've made since your entire agrument is apparently in this one post as you say.

amneziac85 said:
I always hear "they didnt need to create an excuse to delay HL2", when I say they used the "hack" of their system as and manufactured excuse to delay the game. But infact, they did. Heres the deal...

Alright, your saying they used the hack of their system as an excuse to delay the game. Gotcha.

amneziac85 said:
Everytime a high profile game gives a release date, they get tens of thousands of pre release orders,

Your the one making these claims here. Where's a source to back up this statement please?

amneziac85 said:
and they are actually PAID for those orders even before the game is out. So multiply 20,000 preorders by $50

20,000 preorders
x $50
$1,000,000 cash advance

Thats a 1 Million dollar cash advance! If your running low on funds but dont want to borrow the money from the bank, this is what you do. ESSPECIALLY when dealing with a very long development cycle. Everyone knows HL1 made alot of money and everyone knows HL2 is costing ALOT of money to develop.

How doing this got them in trouble....

One way or another they get into this deal with ATI, its not known if ATI went to them with the offer coupons deal but they did eventually get into it with one another. So ATI basically pulls up with a truck load of money and says "Here, we'll put coupons in our boxes for HL2 and you can have all these millions of dollars". Sure anyone can see that they could have just told ATI the release date was bullsh*t,

Speculation here. We don't, and can't, know if they realized they would not make the release date at this time since we don't know the true cause of the delay.

amneziac85 said:
but one of the first rules of business is "A bird in the hand is better then two in the bush" let alone one in the bush in this case. So Valve agrees this and chalks it up as easy money, after all, they wouldnt have wanted Doom 3 to get this offer from ATI if they turned it down. So all is well until the release date starts to creep closer and Valve knows damn well it wont be ready in time.

Again, speculation. Unless you are an employee of Valve you cannot know why it was delayed and thus cannot say at what time they knew it would be so.

amneziac85 said:
So do they tell ATI "Hey, turns out it wont be ready for another year...sorry"? Hell no, for the fact that saying the game "Just isnt done" and wont be for another year would mean a lawsuit by ATI because they were told the same thing we were, that they were finishing up meaning the game was done except for some minor things, because if you remember, ALLL the way up until the source was stolen, they were saying that the game would make its release date. You cant suddenly be a month from release then whoa hey delay it by a year. ATI would sue you saying you knew this the whole time and lied for their money, end of story.

No, not end of story. I find it doubtful that ATI could sue Valve over a release date. Broken release dates are notoriously common in the industry. Show me some legal precedent that says that ATI could have won such a case.

amneziac85 said:
So they needed an excuse to delay it, its the difference between First Degree Premeditated Manslaughter and Third Degree Accidental. Its the difference between a lawsuit where you would have to give back all the money plus ALOT more and break your new friendship with ATI (which could seriously hurt you on many levels, use your imagination) and getting free publicity while being able to keep the money and keep the train moving.

I hate to sound like a broken record here, but you are again speculating on the interworkings of Valve and ATI. Unless you know specifically what was in the contract between them nothing you say is proven.

amneziac85 said:
, butSo they realease a source, that they know will be very hard to get,

Try reading any beta related website. It does not seem very hard to get for anyone that is slightly computer literate.

amneziac85 said:
that if youve played it, reveals very little about the story,

Actually there was just a thread saying that it practically reveals the whole story if you know where to look.

amneziac85 said:
is ugly and clunky. I think its obvious, but let me know what you guys think.

Ok, I've let you know what I think. You have very little evidence of anything solid. It is just SPECULATION. But the major point against you is that you do not and never have addressed the issue of the source code as I've now said three or four times now. You say they release a "source" that you can "play". This shows you do not understand what I'm even talking about here. You CANNOT play the source. It is something different than a leaked unfinished demo. It is the engine's source code and would be very very bad to intentionally release it. Also take into consideration that since the source code is the egine code it probably contains the physics system, which was liscensed by Havok. If Valve had any hand in releasing the source code they would be liable to Havok which would result in a lawsuit against them in all likely hood.
 
^^^ Bravo!

amneziac85, if you're going to accuse a major company of commiting fraud against the United states for profit, you might want to clear up those little inconsistencies.

Citing more than one source can't hurt either.
 
Sept 30th rolled around and HL2 was not released. Valve claimed "it was not done". It was days/weeks after that date that Valve got hacked and the source code stolen.

The reason HL2 was delayed is because it was not done (same with Steam). So some p'ed off hacker decided to hack valve because they delayed the game. This hacker then made a statement that what he/she stole was everything that Valve had, nothing more/nothing less. They stated this to try and fool you. Try to make you believe that HL2 was no where near completion (and that the AI was scripted - but who you gonna trust, Valve or a hacker? :p ).

Summarize: HL2 was originally delayed because Valve stated it was not done. But now that the source code was stolen, Valve will have to delay it ever longer.
 
I agree that the SOURCE code issue hasn't been addressed.
Why would toyota "accidentaly" <nudge nudge wink wink> have its plans for its new competition bashing car availible to other companies?

The engine they came up with took millions to produce didn't it? Why give expensive research away when you paid for everything? Why give it to competition.?

I think the biggest fault with arguement is that you are willing to believe a VP from vivendi universal, which is an outside company, and not other sources, such as Valve.

Now if Valve might be lying, why would Vivendi be a good source of information? They would be in cahoots wouldn't they?

No matter who is reporting, I'm willing to bet that the VU official or a hackers account or what valve tells us is not the entire story.

Therefore

you cannot trust one over others; especially if they are working together.
 
You know, VALVe was hacked BEFORE Septemeber 30th. Infact, the hacker had no way of knowing if the game was to be delayed, because, as Gabe stated, it all started around September 11th.

Just thought I'd chime in there, with people saying the hacker was pissed that the game got delayed, when they had no way to know because it was done before the 30th. But yes, the game wasn't done, as stated by VALVe many times.
 
amneziac85 said:
I still see NO quotes, articles...anything to back up anything you guys are saying...If I can provide links, so can you.

It's strange how you ask us to do something that you don't.
 
There's a time difference between the game being delayed, and the source code being stolen. If they did leak the source code themselves, don't you think that it would've happened the other way round? I mean, they delayed the game, then faked an excuse two weeks after? It doesn't make sense that way.

Chris D was saying that. The game was delayed before the leak was announced. The game was not finished. So they said it will be released "Holidays". Then the code was leaked.

As for your quotes, you're quoting that the leak of the Source Code delayed the game. Well done. If Valve wanted to delay the game, couldn't they have come up with an excuse that wouldn't make them have to do 6 months more work?
 
amneziac85 said:
What facts did I get wrong? They said that the delay was because the source created security holes. If you were to tell me that one of the biggest games ever costing tens of millions of dollars to develop would have its source code stolen with a damn keylogger I would have told you one word, "Norton". A word they want us to bellieve they have never heard. I just think their smarter then that. And we all know that whenever theres a story, theres 10 times more to that story then you even realise.

I believe there's about 200 times more to everything than you realise.

Regarding the keylogger thing. Valve did virus scan, but Virus scanners aren't perfect. They only detect trojans/viriuses that have been seen before. That's why you have to keep updating them.

GabeNewell said:
Ever have one of those weeks? This has just not been the best couple of days for me or for Valve.

Yes, the source code that has been posted is the HL-2 source code.

Here is what we know:

1) Starting around 9/11 of this year, someone other than me was accessing my email account. This has been determined by looking at traffic on our email server versus my travel schedule.

2) Shortly afterwards my machine started acting weird (right-clicking on executables would crash explorer). I was unable to find a virus or trojan on my machine, I reformatted my hard drive, and reinstalled.

3) For the next week, there appears to have been suspicious activity on my webmail account.

4) Around 9/19 someone made a copy of the HL-2 source tree.

5) At some point, keystroke recorders got installed on several machines at Valve. Our speculation is that these were done via a buffer overflow in Outlook's preview pane. This recorder is apparently a customized version of RemoteAnywhere created to infect Valve (at least it hasn't been seen anywhere else, and isn't detected by normal virus scanning tools).

6) Periodically for the last year we've been the subject of a variety of denial of service attacks targetted at our webservers and at Steam. We don't know if these are related or independent.

Well, this sucks.

What I'd appreciate is the assistance of the community in tracking this down. I have a special email address for people to send information to, [email protected]. If you have information about the denial of service attacks or the infiltration of our network, please send the details. There are some pretty obvious places to start with the posts and records in IRC, so if you can point us in the right direction, that would be great.

We at Valve have always thought of ourselves as being part of a community, and I can't imagine a better group of people to help us take care of these problems than this community.

Gabe
 
Reopened, because I believe this merits discussion.

Flames or abuse will not be tolerated, and will be subject to extremely sarcastic editing. You have been warned.
 
By the way, the reason for the delay ("it wasn't ready") is in the Info from Valve thread. Enjoy.
 
Thank you SO much Neutrino, Mechagodzilla, Feath, Chris_D and everyone else who have put this guy to rights. Such consipracy theories are insulting in the extreme to Valve.
 
It's just common sense really. And you know I would really like to hear what he has to say in defense, but if he doesn't respond I guess we'll just have no choice but to claim victory. Break out a couple cold ones.
 
There won't be a response. If someone comes up with valid rebutalls, he just ignores it, or calls them homosexual.
 
PiMuRho said:
There won't be a response. If someone comes up with valid rebutalls, he just ignores it, or calls them homosexual.
I'd say that the association of stalking with being homosexual is a bit of a bad attitude to be spouting.
 
Think about it - do you really think valve would risk HL2's story line by hacking it ?

Do you think they would risk liein about the AI that was supposedly faked?

Would they throw away two/three years of work?

i dont think so!!!
 
yeah...that

amneziac85 said:
I always hear "they didnt need to create an excuse to delay HL2", when I say they used the "hack" of their system as and manufactured excuse to delay the game. But infact, they did. Heres the deal...

Everytime a high profile game gives a release date, they get tens of thousands of pre release orders, and they are actually PAID for those orders even before the game is out. So multiply 20,000 preorders by $50

20,000 preorders
x $50
$1,000,000 cash advance

Thats a 1 Million dollar cash advance! If your running low on funds but dont want to borrow the money from the bank, this is what you do. ESSPECIALLY when dealing with a very long development cycle. Everyone knows HL1 made alot of money and everyone knows HL2 is costing ALOT of money to develop.

How doing this got them in trouble....

One way or another they get into this deal with ATI, its not known if ATI went to them with the offer coupons deal but they did eventually get into it with one another. So ATI basically pulls up with a truck load of money and says "Here, we'll put coupons in our boxes for HL2 and you can have all these millions of dollars". Sure anyone can see that they could have just told ATI the release date was bullsh*t, but one of the first rules of business is "A bird in the hand is better then two in the bush" let alone one in the bush in this case. So Valve agrees this and chalks it up as easy money, after all, they wouldnt have wanted Doom 3 to get this offer from ATI if they turned it down. So all is well until the release date starts to creep closer and Valve knows damn well it wont be ready in time. So do they tell ATI "Hey, turns out it wont be ready for another year...sorry"? Hell no, for the fact that saying the game "Just isnt done" and wont be for another year would mean a lawsuit by ATI because they were told the same thing we were, that they were finishing up meaning the game was done except for some minor things, because if you remember, ALLL the way up until the source was stolen, they were saying that the game would make its release date. You cant suddenly be a month from release then whoa hey delay it by a year. ATI would sue you saying you knew this the whole time and lied for their money, end of story. So they needed an excuse to delay it, its the difference between First Degree Premeditated Manslaughter and Third Degree Accidental. Its the difference between a lawsuit where you would have to give back all the money plus ALOT more and break your new friendship with ATI (which could seriously hurt you on many levels, use your imagination) and getting free publicity while being able to keep the money and keep the train moving. So they realease a source, that they know will be very hard to get, that if youve played it, reveals very little about the story, is ugly and clunky. I think its obvious, but let me know what you guys think.

he brings up alot of good points and I think it is a possibility.
 
His entire house of cards rests upon his belief that Valve need the money.

HL sold about 13 million copies at about $40 each.

That makes $520,000,000

Assume that the evil publisher take 90%

That leaves Valve $52,000,000

HL2's budget so far is $40,000,000

So what makes you think they were low on cash?

So, now the house of cards begins to fall. Valve didn't require any cash from ATI, but made a deal with them because that's what businesses do. It's for mutual benefit.

Also, releasing the actual source code to your engine? As a stunt to gain more time, it would be even more financially suicidal than telling ATI to go f**k themselves. Any proficient coder could take that source and write their own engine, or create a game with it.

Also, Mr Amneziac also conveniently forgets (haha) that Gabe has stated that the game was delayed because it wasn't ready (it's in the Info from Valve thread - find it yourself). Did we see a huge lawsuit from ATI? No, of course not.

Amneziac likes to amuse himself by posting conspiracy theories and idle speculation, then resorts to kiddy tactics when people call him out or provide evidence of why he's wrong.
 
i recommend this thread for any1 having a bad day.

its very amusing and has cheered me up.


Its wierd how he didnt notice NO1 agreed with him and he didnt think something was wrong with that :laugh:
 
*Wonder why they don't do it each and every day..* :rolleyes:
 
amneziac85 said:
whats funny is i posted it 15 seconds ago...there no way any of you have even read it...how typical.

I read it, and I agree with you on 1 part, that is that Valve knew all to well they wouldnt be finished in time.

But hey, so did that guy @ PHL :p so you are like 8 months late with your non-facts :laugh:
 
Amenisiac read these 3 statements:-

If Valve 'deliberately' leaked the Source code of the HL² engine in order to make a quick buck from pre-orders they would need to have their ****ing heads examined.

If Valve 'deliberately' leaked the Source code of the HL² engine in order to make a quick buck out of ATI they would need to have their ****ing heads examined.

If Valve 'deliberately' leaked the Source code of the HL² engine in order to justify a delay to the games release they would need to have their ****ing heads examined.

Notice the common thread running through all 3 statements? Deliberately leaked Source code = Head examined.

The leak of the source code hasn't netted Valve any money, infact it has probably cost them a lot more, and I'm not talking about game sales here. I'm talking about legal consulation (good lawyers don't come cheap). Potential licencing of the HL² engine, and loss of revenue from maintaining the steam network without profit, the list goes ever onward.

I commend you for coming up with an ingenious theory, but unfortunately it just doesn't stand up to close scrutiny.

If valve wanted to delay the game, they could of just leaked the 'beta' and they could of swung themselves a good few months to tie up 'security' issues, but to deliberately release your games source code, you would have to clinically insane. An individual yes, a whole company? Unlikely.
 
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