Mass Effect Box Art

[CptStern]

hmm I havent played kotor 2 and only briefly kotor 1 ..but wasnt one the biggest problems with kotor it's plot? didnt the dev team have to scrap a big portion of the game just to rush it to stores on ime? isnt there a fan made mod that aims to correct the huge holes in it's plot?

 

[Max35]

I just watched the ME trailer again (where you go to the mining world). The dialog options are aren't like [threaten him] or [sweet talk], it's a summary of what is going to be said. Watch the trailer to see what I'm saying. Therefore, you don't need to read a paragraph to decide what you're going to say next. There is still a conversation, so the excellent writing has the potential to be there.

Generally, conversations imply an exchange of information, not one-liners. Information usually consists of text. Therefore, removing text equals dumbing down.

That's a bit of a narrow-minded view in my opinion. Information can come through talking, and not reading piles of text. I don't mind reading piles of text, actually, but I'm keeping an open mind with this new approach. Remember, this is a game, not a novel. The player wants to be doing something. It's not dumbing it down, it's removing a tedious precusor to conversation (some might percieve it that way).

Yes, I like being able to read my full response to a character before I actually give it, but it's not a big deal and allows conversations to progress at a quicker pace, instead of the unnatural "think for two minutes before choosing a dialog option." (<exaggeration) It is simplifying an activity, while increasing another. It's a trade off.

Honestly, I kind of understand where you are coming from. At times, I like reading all that text, but that's the reader in me, not the gamer. Dialogue in games does not require alot of text. You simply need a summary of what you're going to say, and your character talks. You get the same amount of dialog in a sense, but you're doing less reading. As I said, either way isn't a big deal to me, but I'm not going to miss a potentially great game because of old-school conventions.

 

[Tagaziel]

Heh, Stern, you're (sadly) right. Gothic 3 attempted to be excellent in every category, and we got 'just' a good game, which comes dangerously close to being an RPG on par with Fallout, if only character development was refined similarly to the Night of the Raven and we had more character interaction in terms of dialogue... (branching dialogue trees FTW!)

I just watched the ME trailer again (where you go to the mining world). The dialog options are aren't like [threaten him] or [sweet talk], it's a summary of what is going to be said. Watch the trailer to see what I'm saying. Therefore, you don't need to read a paragraph to decide what you're going to say next. There is still a conversation, so the excellent writing has the potential to be there.

Summaries aren't dialogue. You just choose the next dialogue path for the cutscene, nothing more. Mass Effect has excellent potential, but Bioware is ruining it with 'next-gen' summaries.

That's a bit of a narrow-minded view in my opinion. Information can come through talking, and not reading piles of text. I don't mind reading piles of text, actually, but I'm keeping an open mind with this new approach.

Wait, I don't get it. Dialogues ARE piles of text, animated only by their execution and writing. Remember Planescape: Torment? That was a lot of text, but it was an excellent read and the options... distilled awesomeness. While true, Planescape: Torment was not the game your average Halo Kiddy would enjoy, it has shown just how much power well written dialogue without voiceovers has.

Remember, this is a game, not a novel. The player wants to be doing something. It's not dumbing it down, it's removing a tedious precusor to conversation (some might percieve it that way).

It is. Well written dialogues EQUAL doing something. When you select a summary, you just do that - choose a sumamry of the next dialogue path for the cutscene. But when you are provided with a few options, when you see what you are going to say, you become that character.

Dialogues are a must for this game, a game of such magnitude that isn't a strategy game. Branching dialogue choices form the conversation, and enrich the game. Removing them, replacing it with summaries ruins the potential.

Yes, I like being able to read my full response to a character before I actually give it, but it's not a big deal and allows conversations to progress at a quicker pace, instead of the unnatural "think for two minutes before choosing a dialog option." (<exaggeration) It is simplifying an activity, while increasing another. It's a trade off.

Yes, but an unnecessary and harmful one. It's also a big deal, because you still have to choose between different stances, and that alone takes time.

Honestly, I kind of understand where you are coming from. At times, I like reading all that text, but that's the reader in me, not the gamer. Dialogue in games does not require alot of text. You simply need a summary of what you're going to say, and your character talks. You get the same amount of dialog in a sense, but you're doing less reading. As I said, either way isn't a big deal to me, but I'm not going to miss a potentially great game because of old-school conventions.

Play Planescape: Torment. Then you'll understand my point.

And remember one thing: writing will never be old-school, as without writing, any game would be just a game with pretty pictures.

 

[Max35]

Summaries aren't dialogue. You just choose the next dialogue path for the cutscene, nothing more. Mass Effect has excellent potential, but Bioware is ruining it with 'next-gen' summaries.

You are right on that account, I'll grant you. But choosing a summary allows the conversation to continue. It is a step away from participating in a convo... but while it makes it natural in one sense (faster responses) it makes it unnatural in another, meaning you don't choose your actual response.

Wait, I don't get it. Dialogues ARE piles of text, animated only by their execution and writing. Remember Planescape: Torment? That was a lot of text, but it was an excellent read and the options... distilled awesomeness. While true, Planescape: Torment was not the game your average Halo Kiddy would enjoy, it has shown just how much power well written dialogue without voiceovers has.

Actually, a dialogue can be written (well, technically, it's all written, but bear with me) or it can be talking between two or more people (that is an alternate definition of dialogue, check on merriam webster.com if you don't believe me).

I remember Planescape: Torment, because I just recently found and played it. Of course, PT was an amazing game, the written dialogue making it that much more enjoyable. Don't get me wrong, I love story-driven games, the with piles of text included. But, to get that much closer to a real-time conversation is something I would like to experience. I don't know, it gives the conversation a more accesible feel and flow, this is hard to describe.

It is. Well written dialogues EQUAL doing something. When you select a summary, you just do that - choose a sumamry of the next dialogue path for the cutscene. But when you are provided with a few options, when you see what you are going to say, you become that character.

Yes, it is doing something. But there can be a large space of time doing nothing but reading THEN picking a response. The reader part of me has nothing against it, the gamer part clashes with it though. I do agree though, having written out responses for the PC would add to the character. But, it detracts from the realism.

Dialogues are a must for this game, a game of such magnitude that isn't a strategy game. Branching dialogue choices form the conversation, and enrich the game. Removing them, replacing it with summaries ruins the potential.

Again, dialogues are taking place in the game, but you're not in complete control of what you say. That's a shame, but it is also an important experiment. This is testing the flow of conversation, and visually reading the emotions of other characters, which was something never possible before in old-school RPGs. This isn't a perfect system, but it is pushing the boundaries of certain areas of convo while deflating itself in other areas (characterization).

Perhaps a mixture of summaries for non-important conversations, and fully-written responses for the character-defining moments (like in romances).

Yes, but an unnecessary and harmful one. It's also a big deal, because you still have to choose between different stances, and that alone takes time.

True, I guess.

And remember one thing: writing will never be old-school, as without writing, any game would be just a game with pretty pictures.

I never said writing will be old school, but certain writing styles (especially in gaming) have become outdated. It has to adapt to the increased level of interactivity. That's all I meant.

And anyway, I am a person that DEMANDS story in games, not an afterthought, but a thought that is front-and-center with the game design. But, different approaches are welcome, for me. I'll wait and see before I judge ME.

 

[Tagaziel]

True, I agree.

However, the problem with this system is, what if you hesitate with making a choice? If you hesitate and the others fail to respond to that, that kills immersion a great deal more than regular dialogues.

I'll refer you to Deus Ex and Gothic, as well as KOTORs, where conversations were occuring in real time, as the world around you continued it's work and talk. It was done perfectly in Gothics.