Matter (Culture)

[Sulkdodds]

http://www.waterstones.com/waterstonesweb/displayProductDetails.do?sku=5926171
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter_(novel)

Going to buy this today. Anyone read it or know anything about it?
I start a new thread because Banks is class and the book sounds awesome:

It's 204,000 words long and the last 4,000 consist of appendices and glossaries. It's so complicated that even in its complexity it's complex.

man WHAT!

 

[Jangle]

Ehh, I do like a bit of SF and I've heard Banks is an awesome writer, but the whole epic space opera thing has never really appealed to me. I dunno, maybe I'd get into it if I started reading it... Let us know if it's any good

 

[Sulkdodds]

It didn't to me, either, but reading the first Culture novel - Consider Phlebas - made me a convert, at least to Banks' opera. Mainly because his characters are immaculate.

I highly recommend you read immediately any one of the first three C books - Consider Phlebas, Player of Games or Use of Weapons.

 

[theotherguy]

I hate, hate books that throw a bunch of unfamiliar terms at you from the get-go and expect you to pick up what they mean. Fantasy and SF books are notorious for this sort of thing.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Why? Most narrative tends to work by witholding or defering meaning or definition - the chief example being a whodunnit. In a story that is in part an exploration into another culture or society, esoteric terms, that is, fictional ones, will form blocks for meaning the eventual revelation or removal of which might be paramount to the flow of the narrative. Exposition is possible, but one doesn't always want to hear two thousand words of encyclopaedia before one understands the context. The art of it is always in making sure that context is revealed organically, or at least interestingly.

I throw in the 'interestingly' because rules are made to be broken. Try reading Riddley Walker - written in a language which bears only a vague resemblance to modern, clear english (an alienation which is central to the book). Or any of James Joyce's later novels - where language is often unreliable or intractable.

Luckily, such musings aside, Banks isn't prone to xenoglossia. Past novels of his have used alien terminology either sparingly, or explained it artfully, or made it of importance without making it an irritation (such as the irregular use of the word Mind in Consider Phlebas).

That is why my reaction to the idea that the book will have a four thousand word glossary/appendix is not "oh. great?" but an interested "oooooh", because I already know that Banks is a skillful and intelligent craftsman. I imagine that there will be a reason for it, that it will be unobtrusive, that it will be interesting, whatever.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday
Doomsday - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So far my expectations haven't been disappointed. I'm maybe a sixth of the way through. So far, I have not been overwhelmed. I've occasionally felt compelled to look things up in the appendix, and doing so's been beneficial. Terminology has been introduced sparingly, or in a way which intriguingly foregrounds it and leads a reader to guess at the meaning, usually not too inaccurately. And, being a little crass, isn't it better to provide a dictionary than unjustifiably expect you to pick things up? Furthermore, in this case, the appendix is also intended to allow one to keep track of the many plot threads - useful, when the text refers to a character you've forgotten the name of, to check them up and remember, ah yes, they were the handservant of so and so who was the prince of whatever.

It's pretty good so far. I am not amazed, yet, but I am thoroughly entertained.

EDIT: Oh, and please don't be offended or tired with my relentless evangelising. I don't mean to be annoying. Like the Culture, I know what's best for you!

 

[theotherguy]

Why? Most narrative tends to work by witholding or defering meaning or definition - the chief example being a whodunnit. In a story that is in part an exploration into another culture or society, esoteric terms, that is, fictional ones, will form blocks for meaning the eventual revelation or removal of which might be paramount to the flow of the narrative. Exposition is possible, but one doesn't always want to hear two thousand words of encyclopaedia before one understands the context. The art of it is always in making sure that context is revealed organically, or at least interestingly.

I throw in the 'interestingly' because rules are made to be broken. Try reading Riddley Walker - written in a language which bears only a vague resemblance to modern, clear english (an alienation which is central to the book). Or any of James Joyce's later novels - where language is often unreliable or intractable.

Luckily, such musings aside, Banks isn't prone to xenoglossia. Past novels of his have used alien terminology either sparingly, or explained it artfully, or made it of importance without making it an irritation (such as the irregular use of the word Mind in Consider Phlebas).

That is why my reaction to the idea that the book will have a four thousand word glossary/appendix is not "oh. great?" but an interested "oooooh", because I already know that Banks is a skillful and intelligent craftsman. I imagine that there will be a reason for it, that it will be unobtrusive, that it will be interesting, whatever.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday
Doomsday - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So far my expectations haven't been disappointed. I'm maybe a sixth of the way through. So far, I have not been overwhelmed. I've occasionally felt compelled to look things up in the appendix, and doing so's been beneficial. Terminology has been introduced sparingly, or in a way which intriguingly foregrounds it and leads a reader to guess at the meaning, usually not too inaccurately. And, being a little crass, isn't it better to provide a dictionary than unjustifiably expect you to pick things up? Furthermore, in this case, the appendix is also intended to allow one to keep track of the many plot threads - useful, when the text refers to a character you've forgotten the name of, to check them up and remember, ah yes, they were the handservant of so and so who was the prince of whatever.

It's pretty good so far. I am not amazed, yet, but I am thoroughly entertained.

EDIT: Oh, and please don't be offended or tired with my relentless evangelising. I don't mean to be annoying. Like the Culture, I know what's best for you!

I understand, but I feel that if an author introduces a term, he at least does not have the narrator using it at first, just to clarify for the reader. And the first time an object or idea is introduced, it should be explained, at least in passing.

I put down Hyperion because of this. The first few chapters are laden with garbage about "treeships" and "world web" and "F.O.R.C.E and other things that make absolutely no sense to the reader, and which aren't really described in any detail, yet which are used constantly by both the narrator and the charachters.

Its a neat effect for say, the opening chapter, or the introduction of a character, to make them feel immersed, but there is no need for the author to prop up this entire world simply for the purpose of propping it up.

I don't know. I suppose its a crime of science fiction in general.

 

[Sulkdodds]

I can totally see how terminology would become overwhelming and just piss a guy off. Still, maybe Hyperion expects you to work it out through context? Sometimes it's difficult to pull off. I'm writing something in the future which is, for all intents and purposes, in free indirect first person - explaining terminology would break the illusion these are the thoughts of a character who knows and is acquainted with the mistopia that they live in. You've just got to...be subtle, I guess, with hints and context.

I think you'd be really interested to read Riddley Walker. It's another book I'm an evangelist for.

 

[Eejit]

I'm going to buy Matter after I finish reading my current book, I'm a big fan of Ian M Banks and the Culture novels in particular. Excession is probably my favourite so far, but Matter looks great too.

 

[Narvi]

Eh, I hear they cut down the appendices way too much. Apparently it's a good book though.

Oh, and theotherguy... wait. That happens in the Culture novels. *remembers wondering what a gerontocracy was*. But not that much. Read them anyway.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Just to say I've finished this and it's well 'ard. I would write a review, but, you know, it's just good. Builds slowly (but never unexciting) and then when things kick off they are nasty.

You can actually listen to the author reading Chapter 1:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=xwPYw615Ud4

 

[Slug Advisor]

Do you need to read the previous Culture novels to understand this? I am considering purchasing this book at my local WHSmith, but I'm not sure whether I am willing to start from Consider Phlebas.

 

[Sulkdodds]

You don't really. Consider Phlebas is great, though. And will certainly be cheaper.

 

[Eejit]

Yeah I started with Consider Phlebas too, I think it's a pretty good introduction but tbh you can read them in pretty much any order.

 

[Slug Advisor]

Okay, if I conveniently find Consider Phlebas somewhere I might buy it, but I'll probably just try reading Matter.

 

[Narvi]

If you can find Consider Phlebas, get Look to Windward too.

 

[Sulkdodds]

I think Use of Weapons is my favourite.

Kind of related, I recently discovered that my dad has, among his enormous store of books, a signed first edition copy of Inversions. Score!

 

[Slug Advisor]

That's it, I'm buying Matter.

EDIT: Bought it. Hardcover edition. For some reason I find this kind of unnerving, probably because I should have begun reading the series with Consider Phlebas and read the whole of it, as I usually do. But I'll start reading now.