MINERVA on Wikipedia

[Cargo Cult]

It's happened, thanks to the devoted acolytes on the development blog.

There's definitely some mistakes remaining, so anyone want to fix things? I'm steering clear of making any edits, what with it needing to be non-autobiographical and all that. So, source those statements!

 

[smokeythebear]

Adam Foster is critical of Valve Software's design process. He believes that pursuing a gameplay-oriented map design can result in forced and unnatural architecture, which resembles "a series of unconnected boxes".

yeah right

Valves level design is based on real world architecture, hence halflife 2 having the best level design out there

 

[Puzzlemaker]

yeah right

Valves level design is based on real world architecture, hence halflife 2 having the best level design out there

Actually, I agree with him; they are pretty boxes, but they are boxes.

 

[Campaignjunkie]

I agree to an extent - because if the gameplay is fun enough, the player generally won't notice the boxy/disconnectedness of things. But it can still feel that way, irregardless; I think it's most evident in Ravenholm and the C17 streetwars chapters.

But remember that as professionals, Valve is focused on the end result (a map), and the gameplay-oriented method definitely makes something playable and fun in an efficient manner.

However, since I'm just a modder, I'm more concerned about my personal enjoyment/satisfaction from level design, and making orange maps is really REALLY boring.

I think it's a matter of efficiency vs. enjoyment, or "Work vs. Pleasure" - and I definitely choose pleasure. I think modders who use the orange-map method are a little... masochistic.

 

[Crispy]

You see, I thought that when I was designing an NS map, but blocking things in is actually really helpful. When you have textures that are tiled to 256 units it helps you work from largescale down to small scale, and the optimisation process is something you do as you go rather than one bigass project at the end. Earlier rooms in the map didn't have enough space, which they would have if I'd worked with one (dev) texture to give me a reference of scale.

Working on a larger scale lets you think more about your overall layout (very important for multiplayer maps). With NS you need to make sure locations aren't too biased and that the corridors are wide enough for Aliens to move around freely. Because I knew I didn't have to worry about the textures, I knew I could concentrate on the design.

Once you've got a solid structure you can go into a bit more detail, and add the textures, such as I was doing here: (crappy squashed image I know).

It's a central platform with one bridge connected and the another out of action (kinda inspired from Star Wars). It was an alternate shortcut right next to an Alien Hive so I wanted Aliens to be able to get to the other side but not the Marines, who would have to go the long way round to activate the other side of the bridge that links the (untextured) entrance on the left and the (textured) one on the far right.

The blue texture is what I worked in (this is HL engine, so no dev textures). Believe it or not I created all of that brushwork in the horrible blue texture. All the time I was keeping an eye on the r_speeds to make sure it was optimised (in this shot it's reading 533, so I still had about 200 for extra detail if I wanted). Although the pic's crappy quality and you can't see how much brushwork is there, those pipelines that turn into that blue turnnel in the middle of the picture are 6-sided, so take up quite a few wpolys, but because of the way I was working I knew I could spare the polys. Rather than going into great detail on features I would eventually discard, wasting time, I went from largescale to smallscale.

It's a clean way to work, but not unenjoyable, since when you come to texture it's much more rewarding. Sometimes when you texture as you go you end up conforming to the boundaries of the textures around you, but if you work in dev textures you can be a bit more free with your design and then fit the textures to your design, not the other way round. I find it a more creative process where you have more overall control of your work.

[ON-TOPIC] Anyway, the Wiki seems quite good, if a bit too heavy on the praise for originality. Minerva's clever and well put together, but giving players glimpses of where they'll go next isn't revelatory nor revolutionary. The cyclic element is mainly what makes it stand out for me. Instead of the descent/ascent through levels introduced by Wolfenstein 3D or the linear route that you see in other games, like HL2, Minerva:Metastasis was great to work your way towards the centre.

 

[Cargo Cult]

But remember that as professionals, Valve is focused on the end result (a map), and the gameplay-oriented method definitely makes something playable and fun in an efficient manner.

I've seen the process up-close, and they've done a fantastic job of separating the visual aspects from the gameplay ones - but conversely, they seem to really admire my slightly bizarre way of doing the whole lot, simultaneously.

For Valve, each room can be considered almost as an independent scene - the game is usually divided into definite, short segments which are in the order they are for gameplay and pacing reasons, not one of overall architectural verisimilitude. Witness the overview 'maps' people have tried making for the Half-Life games - they just don't make sense.

I like building full worlds, though, and that's part of the fun for me. It most likely wouldn't work for a full-scale computer game, but it's a different, not-too-original approach - and I've definitely got my own influences...

Oh, and if anyone thinks the Wikipedia article is too gushing, overlong or whatever, Be Bold! and edit it...

 

[Asknoone]

For Valve, each room can be considered almost as an independent scene - the game is usually divided into definite, short segments which are in the order they are for gameplay and pacing reasons, not one of overall architectural verisimilitude. Witness the overview 'maps' people have tried making for the Half-Life games - they just don't make sense.

When I'm mapping I tend to lean towards Valve's approach. I fail at adding areas like corridor and things such as because every area I create tends to be as detailed as possible. For example Halo, on the Covenant ship...you walk through a series of similar corridors over and over again...I couldn't map that.

It ends up being more linear that way and I never manage to really get that MINERVA feel but bleh, I've tried.

 

[Crispy]

I think the problem with most HL2 maps is that players haven't got a wonderful array of great maps to inspire them. The other problem is the setting. While SP mappers for the Quake series had a Sci-Fi setting to excuse their bolder experiments with architecture, HL2 mappers tend not to think they can take those risks. If only more HL2 mappers took a step back, and played through the vaults of custom SP maps for the Quake or Unreal series they'd get more of an idea of what makes for great single-player experiences.

Anyway, I think I should shut up here, because I haven't touched a map in way too long. :bonce: But I'm quietly confident that projects like MINERVA could help to envigorate the HL2 SP mapping scene. *Fingers crossed*

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

There is something in what Crispy said - a lot of mappers do just set out to make more HL2 maps - they're almost all variations on a City 17 theme. Get creative!

As for technique, I've been doing this too long now to change. I start on an area, then fill it in (texturing, adding the detail etc) then move on to the next small area. Afterwards, I go back and make another couple of detail passes, until I'm nearly happy with it.

 

[Asknoone]

There is something in what Crispy said - a lot of mappers do just set out to make more HL2 maps - they're almost all variations on a City 17 theme. Get creative!

I'm sure that's the first time you've used explanation marks Pi.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

I'm not given to bouts of excessive external enthusiasm.

 

[kupocake]

You just know that the wikipedia nazis will descend on this article and demand its expulsion because it's too fandom based and a niche interest

 

[SimonomiS]

You just know that the wikipedia nazis will descend on this article and demand its expulsion because it's too fandom based and a niche interest

I wouldn't think so, there's an entire list of HL2 mods, quite a few of which link off into their own page.

 

[Asknoone]

The wikipedia nazis annoy me greatly. Persistent editing of my HL2: Episode 1 information-adding. My latest additions have gone untouched however...
They also decided my "It has also been speculated, and what is a more plausible theory to Gman controlling time is that he was merely altering Gordons perception of it, rather than time itself." on the Gman page was just not welcome. And took it away.

 

[CrazyHarij]

i havent done alot of mapping but when i did i always sketched a big top-down view map on a3 paper. it works really damn well, not only because it's a more fun way of getting ideas in my personal opinion, but once you're working on the map you're not going to get stuck every hour thinking "hmm what should i add next?", you can just check with the paper. It's amazing when the environment starts to become a 3d version of what you drew.

like cargo cult most things i do creatively pursue the goal of creating a cohesive world that is plausible enough to be immersive and giving the illusion of a real existing place. i loved making space-cities in jk2.

 

[Crispy]

They also decided my "It has also been speculated, and what is a more plausible theory to Gman controlling time is that he was merely altering Gordons perception of it, rather than time itself." on the Gman page was just not welcome. And took it away.

I actually think that's a fair comment using fairly impressive postmodernist lateral thinking.

i havent done alot of mapping but when i did i always sketched a big top-down view map on a3 paper. it works really damn well, not only because it's a more fun way of getting ideas in my personal opinion, but once you're working on the map you're not going to get stuck every hour thinking "hmm what should i add next?", you can just check with the paper. It's amazing when the environment starts to become a 3d version of what you drew.

Yeah, I always (used to) draw top down views (or cross-sectional views if it's a repeated design like in a corridor). Sometimes I (used to) do a rough sketch that shows a particular view that encompasses the main features of the location. Works a treat.

 

[smokeythebear]

Actually, I agree with him; they are pretty boxes, but they are boxes.

yeah but then there are maps like highway 17, were it never feels like a box

I think i like Valves mapping style more ever since i listened to all the comments on lost coast

 

[Cargo Cult]

I'll plan the overall layout and events in my head beforehand (my brain's much faster for mapping than Hammer...) and then sketch out the visuals with rough blocks before applying polish to each room.

Paper is cheating - the only thing I wrote down for MINERVA was an unused title for the project. MINERVA: Phosphenes, anyone?

Incidentally, I've posted a new blog entry whatsit thingy. Lots of typing. Enjoy.

 

[sinkoman]

I'm a little late to the thread, but BAH, this page sucks major.

My oppinion on the page...

Somebody needs to edit this page major. It's way too oppinionated.

The page SHOULD describe his maps as they are literally presented. At current, the author of this page is describing the maps from his own point of view, most prominent in the section headed "Design".

It's also written in a form that one would expect while talking to a friend face to face, not one that you'd expect in an encyclopedia.

Example: It is revealed that you are not the only person Minerva has manipulated. She compares you against at least one other such avatar - most likely a reference to Pericles but it is also possible it refers to the player character of Someplace Else[5]

I, personally, going by content standards I see plastered around wikipedia, would expect this to be presented more as the following: In game, it is revealed that you are not the only person Minerva has contracted. The player is compared against another character (insert example). This could possibly be a slight reference to the Greek General Pericles. It may also refer to the lead character in the Adam Foster mod, Someplace Else[5]

This needs a flag or something. This page is horrible :/

 

[Cargo Cult]

I'm a little late to the thread, but BAH, this page sucks major.

It's a wiki - edit it?

 

[okidoki]

It also says "meatstasis" at one point, which is deliciously provocative.