More on Team Fortress 2 Closed Beta

[Evo]

Valve's Robin Walker has revealed some more details about the Team Fortress 2 closed beta to Shacknews. A key point to reassure you non-competitive players that you won't be forgotten:[br]

"This doesn't reflect any change of our attitude towards non-competitive TF2 play, it's just going to give us more data. We'll continue to talk and listen to the non-competitive TF2 players, as we have done in the two years since we shipped. The more data we have, the more effective we'll be as we continue striving for design choices that work for all TF2 players."

Robin also briefly talks about why they have taken this approach with the competitive community. Read all his comments on Shacknews.

 

[Sloth]

Think its an interesting way of getting the simple ideas onto the playing field, no models or skinning needed. Hopefully some of the additions into the competitive side see their way to the more casual TF2.

 

[Darkside55]

To hell with casua--

fire-repellent suit for the spy

That is the most casual idea I have ever heard.

 

[Eejit]

Firesuit is the worst idea I've heard for TF2.

 

[Great Grizzly]

Firesuit?

The pyro is the *only* hard counter to the spy. Now they are taking that away?

They should take away some of the hard counters to the heavy, then maybe competitive players might want to actually use the class.

 

[Eejit]

Yeah that would be like giving the heavy a headshot-proof helmet and backstab-resistant armor.

 

[Tamer17]

Obviously if there were to be a firesuit for the Spy, it would have downsides to balance it out. And if these ideas are approved by the competitive players, then hopefully, the winers will shut up.

 

[Eejit]

Yeah, damn those vinophiles and their constant chattering about a faint scent of oak or a slight hint of hazelnut.

 

[Dcode]

Nice to see a developer focusing on the hardcore bunch for once.

 

[Laivasse]

Disclaimer: a non competitive gamer's perspective.

Is it just me or is the competitive scene missing the point of TF2 slightly? From what I understand, clans pretty much only play 6v6 matches, using 2 medics, 2 soldiers, a scout, and a wild card class, which is usually situation specific, eg. an engy to defend the last point, a sniper to pin down a struggling team, etc. Don't they only pick from a limited pool of maps too...? It's like half the game just gets overlooked.

Is it really worth Valve's effort to incorporate features specifically for a playerbase who are already pretty settled in the way they play the game? Wouldn't it be better for clans to change up their attitude towards the game slightly, play some larger scale matches in different game modes...? Maybe have an 'unswitchable class' mode, in which you remain as your chosen class until the end of the entire round, so that the other classes could get more of an airing in competitive play without creating an imbalance between highly skilled teams (the idea being that teams would agree upon their class choices beforehand).

It just seems like TF2 players have a bit of a skewed choice; you can play on pubs, where you experience the full variety of the game but often with uncoordinated, uncooperative, unskilled or stacked teams, or you can polish up and play competitively, in which case you're pretty much funneled into a fairly restrictive manner of play. Neither is ideal IMO.

 

[i_liek_shootan]

From what I've seen and played of TF2 it does seem to be a much less competitive game than TFC for one main reason - the lack of difficult "skillz" to learn

ie,

trimping, bunnyhopping, conc jumping, gliding etc

I don't see as much difference b/w "pro" (I hate that word - no1 is getting paid for this shiz) TF2 gamers and casual TF2 gamers as I did when I used to play TFC competitively.

Anyone else with experience of both games agree?

 

[ríomhaire]

I don't understand the whole 6v6 thing for competitive play. That sounds like a crap number of players for a class-based team game.

 

[Darkside55]

From what I've seen and played of TF2 it does seem to be a much less competitive game than TFC for one main reason - the lack of difficult "skillz" to learn

Anyone else with experience of both games agree?

I can already tell you and I will get along greatly. You're echoing what I've been saying on this forum since TF2 was released; the entire problem with Team Fortress 2 was that it was designed for the casual gamer: there is no learning curve.

TFC was perfect because its design was simple enough for anyone to jump into the game and play it; you pick a class and you figure out its basics, and you can easily have a good time like that. Once you started playing at a more advanced level you'd learn things that'd set you apart from casual players; the game became a whole new experience from what you'd play in a pub versus clan play.

TF2 is just simple. You jump into the game, pick a class, figure out its basics and then...that's it. No more to learn. And what with all the unlocks and this-and-that...is it any wonder the game actually needs to be rebalanced to allow for good clan play?

But just FYI, this board doesn't give a shit about TFC. These people enjoy their CASUAL GAEM and hate hearing about how TFC is superior. I'd be willing to bet about 90% of this forum has never even touched TFC.

I don't understand the whole 6v6 thing for competitive play. That sounds like a crap number of players for a class-based team game.

We used to do 5v5 in TFC. Standard ladders were 5v5 or 8v8.

 

[i_liek_shootan]

Glad to lend my support in that case

My point was also touching upon the egos of "big clan" TF2 players. I bet a whole load of them have no idea what a tough learning curve is

 

[Warbie]

the entire problem with Team Fortress 2 was that it was designed for the casual gamer: there is no learning curve.

We are destined to battle in all things, it seems

There couldn't be any more difference between TF2 on publics and clan play. On publics it's spammy chaos with neither rhyme nor reason. They're for enjoying the spectacle and carnage, and nothing else. Competitively, TF2 is a ridiculously punishing test of teamplay and twitch aiming. The learning curve is as tough as any clan game i've played (which includes RTCW, the real daddy of team/class based gaming).

As with all games of this type, if you havn't played TF2 at a decent level you have no idea what you're talking about and would be useless in a clan match. So there

 

[i_liek_shootan]

TF2 is a ridiculously punishing test of teamplay and twitch aiming. The learning curve is as tough as any clan game i've played (which includes RTCW, the real daddy of team/class based gaming).

Sorry, I just lol'd my pants.

TF2 twitch aiming?
"ridiculously punishing test of teamplay"?

You're like those bottom half Premier League managers who keep banging on about teamwork to make up for the individual skill deficiencies of their players. TF2 imposes a low individual skill ceiling so noone can dominate individually. That's when you start hearing tards tsaying how theyre a "good teem playar".

http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?p=3003553

Go here for a more lively discussion of this.

 

[Sheepo]

I can already tell you and I will get along greatly. You're echoing what I've been saying on this forum since TF2 was released; the entire problem with Team Fortress 2 was that it was designed for the casual gamer: there is no learning curve.

TFC was perfect because its design was simple enough for anyone to jump into the game and play it; you pick a class and you figure out its basics, and you can easily have a good time like that. Once you started playing at a more advanced level you'd learn things that'd set you apart from casual players; the game became a whole new experience from what you'd play in a pub versus clan play.

TF2 is just simple. You jump into the game, pick a class, figure out its basics and then...that's it. No more to learn. And what with all the unlocks and this-and-that...is it any wonder the game actually needs to be rebalanced to allow for good clan play?

But just FYI, this board doesn't give a shit about TFC. These people enjoy their CASUAL GAEM and hate hearing about how TFC is superior. I'd be willing to bet about 90% of this forum has never even touched TFC.

Darkseid, I'm going to go out on a limb and say all this nonsense about TFC being a super hardcore, deep game, with many advanced skills to learn, total bullshit. In the end, it's ugly TF2 with many pointless weapons and THOUSANDS OF GRENADES EVERYWHERE, HOLY SHIT IF YOU JUMP ABOVE THEM AT THE RIGHT TIME YOU FLY THROUGH THE AIR REAL FAST. I guess you might think it's kind of cool, but it's kind of pointless and doesn't really add any depth or quality to the game and I've grown a little bit tired of your constant discussion of TFC as if it's mankind's greatest accomplishment.

Spoiler

I like TFC

Edit: And Warbie is referring to TF2 clan play.

 

[Laivasse]

You're like those bottom half Premier League managers who keep banging on about teamwork to make up for the individual skill deficiencies of their players. TF2 imposes a low individual skill ceiling so noone can dominate individually. That's when you start hearing tards tsaying how theyre a "good teem playar".

It's interesting that you mention this because a comparison with professional football kept popping into my mind also, but as evidence for why TF2 is potentially such a great team game - and also of how competitive players aren't really prepared to commit themselves to the spirit of it.

Anyone who knows how to play football and plays it in a park with friends is essentially playing the same game as televised professionals. The professionals may do it with immeasurably greater polish, and they may have an untouchable level of mental and physical conditioning but they don't base their game around obscure tricks which are impenetrable to those who play in the park. They don't, for example, find some improbable way of using the corner flag to launch themselves across the pitch to perform a diving header in the opposition 6 yard box. In much the same way, TF2 pubbers are playing essentially the same game as competitive TF2 players, using essentially the same methods, just at a different level of polish and skill.

Where I think 'pro' players are going wrong is in not accepting the full ramifications of the type of game that TF2 is. In professional football, to return to the comparison for a second, players have to accept the clear boundaries betwen their roles. Centre halves have to make do with the fact that their duties consist mostly of jumping and sticking their legs out at the right times; they're not going to ever be dribbling the length of the pitch or beating their opposite number. Goalies - or indeed forwards- might hardly get a touch, depending on how the game's going. Likewise, medics in TF2 can no longer count on being able to bounce around the entire map and score caps in a blaze of glory.

I don't think the competitive scene has really got to grips with this. They're all still gloryhunters, playing as if they want to be Cristiano fukkin Ronaldo. They rove around maps - the few that fit their tightly defined play style - in tight bands of 6, with no division between action on the frontline or people holding tight in defense. They're trying to be teams composed entirely of wingers. As such it's no wonder that they don't like half the game (and I'm not just talking about unlocks, many of which I'm not too hot on either).

TF2 has the potential to be played a little more like professional football, but it seems to me as if competitive gamers are all too happy just sticking with their indoor five-a-side.

BTW, I'd also posit that bottom-half Premiership managers, however beleaguered, know a bit more about competitive sports and team play than the 'pros' playing TF2 and TFC

 

[i_liek_shootan]

Darkseid, I'm going to go out on a limb and say all this nonsense about TFC being a super hardcore, deep game, with many advanced skills to learn, total bullshit. In the end, it's ugly TF2 with many pointless weapons and THOUSANDS OF GRENADES EVERYWHERE, HOLY SHIT IF YOU JUMP ABOVE THEM AT THE RIGHT TIME YOU FLY THROUGH THE AIR REAL FAST. I guess you might think it's kind of cool, but it's kind of pointless and doesn't really add any depth or quality to the game and I've grown a little bit tired of your constant discussion of TFC as if it's mankind's greatest accomplishment.

Spoiler

I like TFC

Edit: And Warbie is referring to TF2 clan play.

So? If you're so tired of it why do you keep posting in such threads? rofl

And let's be fair - there's a b it more to it than just jumping above grenades at the right time. Or were you one of those who couldn't do handheld conc jumps

I take it you don't play scout at clan level, and haven't come up against a pair of - usually ex quake playing - scouts in a match. It doesn't get more twitchy than that. Being a good soldier - mid air rocket shots and picking off pesky scouts - is also requires good aim. The same goes for the sniper.

It sounds like you haven't played TF2 in a clan match and are basing your decisions on public server play. Correct me if i'm wrong, of course



What rubbish. You need a great deal of skill to compete at a high level in TF2, just as you do in any other game. I find the soldier, scout and sniper classes as demanding as anything else i've played in clans over the years. I can't comment on the other classes as I don't play them (I do know that to be a good demoman in 6 vs 6 you have to be shit hot, though)

No, but I've played TFC and Quake 2/3 to a "competitive" level.

Based on those experiences, and of other FPS games, TF2 as I said originally, has the usual individual skills - hitscan aiming and rocket leading which both TFC and Quake have, but it LACKS the advanced movement skills. Therefore, the required individual skill level is lower overall.

Good to know you've got a handle on the background of most competitive scouts thou.

It's interesting that you mention this because a comparison with professional football kept popping into my mind also, but as evidence for why TF2 is potentially such a great team game - and also of how competitive players aren't really prepared to commit themselves to the spirit of it.

Anyone who knows how to play football and plays it in a park with friends is essentially playing the same game as televised professionals. The professionals may do it with immeasurably greater polish, and they may have an untouchable level of mental and physical conditioning but they don't base their game around obscure tricks which are impenetrable to those who play in the park. They don't, for example, find some improbable way of using the corner flag to launch themselves across the pitch to perform a diving header in the opposition 6 yard box. In much the same way, TF2 pubbers are playing essentially the same game as competitive TF2 players, using essentially the same methods, just at a different level of polish and skill.

Where I think 'pro' players are going wrong is in not accepting the full ramifications of the type of game that TF2 is. In professional football, to return to the comparison for a second, players have to accept the clear boundaries betwen their roles. Centre halves have to make do with the fact that their duties consist mostly of jumping and sticking their legs out at the right times; they're not going to ever be dribbling the length of the pitch or beating their opposite number. Goalies - or indeed forwards- might hardly get a touch, depending on how the game's going. Likewise, medics in TF2 can no longer count on being able to bounce around the entire map and score caps in a blaze of glory.

I don't think the competitive scene has really got to grips with this. They're all still gloryhunters, playing as if they want to be Cristiano fukkin Ronaldo. They rove around maps - the few that fit their tightly defined play style - in tight bands of 6, with no division between action on the frontline or people holding tight in defense. They're trying to be teams composed entirely of wingers. As such it's no wonder that they don't like half the game (and I'm not just talking about unlocks, many of which I'm not too hot on either).

TF2 has the potential to be played a little more like professional football, but it seems to me as if competitive gamers are all too happy just sticking with their indoor five-a-side.

BTW, I'd also posit that bottom-half Premiership managers, however beleaguered, know a bit more about competitive sports and team play than the 'pros' playing TF2 and TFC

Well I'm glad that you decided to engage in a debate rtaher than the ridiculous gang-up flaming going on in the other thread.

I think we're discussing the analogy from two differing standpoints.

On the one hand, I'm discussing how football allows for individuals to shine within the team - see Maradona at WC 86 for the quintessential example.

On the other, you're talking about how football is primarily a team game with set roles and responsibilities for each individual player as a part of that team. You draw a comparison with TF2 unfavourably, implying that TF2 players try to play as gloryhunters, within a game which no longer provides for that playing style (compared to TFC).

My point is that within football there is the opportunity to exceptional individuals to shine, and yes, using "trickery" to a certain extent as you call it - the Maradona "flip flap", Cruyff's "Cruyff Turn", etc etc. It is not surprise that the players generally considered the greatest ever or the greatest today, are the dribblers - the individual tricksters.

TFC had this depth, whether intentionally or unintentionally it was tacitly accepted by Valve. TF2, by design, doesn't. That is the crux of my point.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Learn to edit and to use multiquote. Thanks.

 

[i_liek_shootan]

Cheers Ed, except you messed up my quotes with someone elses - can't rememebr what I wrote exactly so...i'll just delete...there. done.

 

[Laivasse]

I think we're discussing the analogy from two differing standpoints.

On the one hand, I'm discussing how football allows for individuals to shine within the team - see Maradona at WC 86 for the quintessential example.

On the other, you're talking about how football is primarily a team game with set roles and responsibilities for each individual player as a part of that team. You draw a comparison with TF2 unfavourably, implying that TF2 players try to play as gloryhunters, within a game which no longer provides for that playing style (compared to TFC).

My point is that within football there is the opportunity to exceptional individuals to shine, and yes, using "trickery" to a certain extent as you call it - the Maradona "flip flap", Cruyff's "Cruyff Turn", etc etc. It is not surprise that the players generally considered the greatest ever or the greatest today, are the dribblers - the individual tricksters.

TFC had this depth, whether intentionally or unintentionally it was tacitly accepted by Valve. TF2, by design, doesn't. That is the crux of my point.

That's where I'm saying your comparison falls down, because there is still plenty of potential for individuals to shine within TF2 - the difference is that they are forced to do it by excelling at the same techniques used by casual players rather than by mastering difficult tricks which those casuals overlook.

You mention player specific trademark moves, but how many players in football have those? How many players use them as the basis of their whole game? Sure, good dribbling and man-beating requires skill, but when a paid professional barrels down the pitch and jinks around a couple of defenders he's performing essentially the same moves that kids will pull off in the park - as it is in TF2. Furthermore, there is a whole spectrum of duties which that flashy dribbler is probably never performing, because there are other 'classes' who will pick up the slack when the focus turns towards providing a good defence. Tricks might make a footballer great, but they don't make much difference to having a good team (even if that might not have been true of TFC); give me a solid back four over some showboating prima donna any day.

Whatever depth TFC did or didn't have is irrelevant, because the lack of conc grenades and movement tricks is not the only difference between the two games. It's therefore a shallow comparison to set them beside eachother and just say 'the movement tricks are missing=less potential'. Weapons all perform differently, classes are more heterogeneous (going back to the point about centre halves vs forwards), everything's balanced differently, movement 'weight' feels different; it all adds up to having to find different ways to be good at your role, and possibly redefining your role in the team totally from that which you've become accustomed to playing in the predecessors to TF2.

Maybe the new play style that you have to adopt won't involve flashy tricks that send you cannoning across the map. Maybe the fact that you can't bypass the action like that any more will place more focus on coordinated pushes and defences. Maybe it will require playing with larger teams, with more discrete class roles, and on unfamiliar maps to get the most from the game. That's just the nature of it being a new game. I don't think it has much to do with any kind of intangible 'skill cap'.

I should also note that I'm talking about what TF2 could be, if players exploited its potential. But at the moment I don't see pubbers or clanners really doing that.

Well I'm glad that you decided to engage in a debate rtaher than the ridiculous gang-up flaming going on in the other thread.

Don't patronise me - I made that post before I saw you being an knob-end in the other thread, calling people 'butthurt' for disagreeing with you.

 

[i_liek_shootan]

You said it yourself - difficult tricks. Yes they are difficult - that's why there's a steeper learning curve to the game with a higher plateau.

Everything else you've mentioned are just relative differences between the games. Faster rockets, slower rockets. Heavier movement, lighter movement, etc. The removal of movement skills of any real substance is an absolute difference.

As for football, give me TH14, or CR7 any day over Lee Cattermole. Individual brilliance marks out the great teams from the merely good. But I think the football analogy is a bit tired - let's leave it there.

As an aside I wasn't patronising you. Was genuinely glad someone was up for debating the games rather than flaming.

 

[Seagull]

I'm on one of the top teams right now in TF2.

TF2 does not have any advanced movement or anything because it has a heavy bias towards teamplay. If your team screws up, there's no carrying that can be done. One player is not going to make much of a difference.

What Valve is trying to do with the Beta (im in it) is make all classes balanced at upper levels of play as well as lower levels. Laivasse, you're saying that we're stuck in our 6v6 and it's the format's fault other classes aren't used, but it's the game's fault. I don't want to NOT choose a spy, it's just that if my team wants to be competitive with other teams at all I'm essentially required to choose 2 sold/2scout/demo/medic, because the other classes are absolutely underpowered or too situational. Hopefully, by the end of the beta we will see a balance so all classes can be viable, bridging the "competitive" and "pubber" scenes as well as increasing the amount of strategies/tactics within the game. Thus far from what I've seen Valve has already taken massive steps towards this goal.

 

[Laivasse]

You said it yourself - difficult tricks. Yes they are difficult - that's why there's a steeper learning curve to the game with a higher plateau.

Everything else you've mentioned are just relative differences between the games. Faster rockets, slower rockets. Heavier movement, lighter movement, etc. The removal of movement skills of any real substance is an absolute difference.

As for football, give me TH14, or CR7 any day over Lee Cattermole. Individual brilliance marks out the great teams from the merely good. But I think the football analogy is a bit tired - let's leave it there.

As an aside I wasn't patronising you. Was genuinely glad someone was up for debating the games rather than flaming.

OK, fair enough.

I agree the skill curve is steeper in TFC but what you see as a 'higher plateau' I say is a separate skillset which emphasises individual performances. You either conc-jump well or you don't, but it's entirely harder to quantify how well you coordinate with team mates, in the absence of flashy moves which would allow you to go solo without seriously restricting your class choice.

The football comparison is indeed getting irritating, but I'll just add that I appreciate what a top-form Hargreaves does just as much as either of those guys.

I'm on one of the top teams right now in TF2.

TF2 does not have any advanced movement or anything because it has a heavy bias towards teamplay. If your team screws up, there's no carrying that can be done. One player is not going to make much of a difference.

What Valve is trying to do with the Beta (im in it) is make all classes balanced at upper levels of play as well as lower levels. Laivasse, you're saying that we're stuck in our 6v6 and it's the format's fault other classes aren't used, but it's the game's fault. I don't want to NOT choose a spy, it's just that if my team wants to be competitive with other teams at all I'm essentially required to choose 2 sold/2scout/demo/medic, because the other classes are absolutely underpowered or too situational. Hopefully, by the end of the beta we will see a balance so all classes can be viable, bridging the "competitive" and "pubber" scenes as well as increasing the amount of strategies/tactics within the game. Thus far from what I've seen Valve has already taken massive steps towards this goal.

Cheers, it's good to have the perspective of a competitive TF2 player, and one inside the beta to boot...

You mention having to stay competitive with other teams - what if the format was shaken up to encourage clans to play 8v8, or 10v10, even 12v12? Would you really just add more soldiers and scouts? What if you set class limits and/or had a way of agreeing team loadouts beforehand and having to abide by them for the duration? How come clans don't play on a larger spread of maps?

It's encouraging that you think Valve are making big strides towards improving TF2 for both spheres of players. I might be barking up the wrong tree as someone who plays pubs exclusively (and sporadically), but I can't help feel like there's untapped potential in TF2 even in it's current form... Still, I'll wait with interest to see what this beta produces.

 

[Viperidae]

Seagull, if you can, just tell me one thing: are they fixing the goddamn FAN? What is the fate of the unlocks?

 

[i_liek_shootan]

You mention having to stay competitive with other teams - what if the format was shaken up to encourage clans to play 8v8, or 10v10, even 12v12? Would you really just add more soldiers and scouts? What if you set class limits and/or had a way of agreeing team loadouts beforehand and having to abide by them for the duration? How come clans don't play on a larger spread of maps?

It's encouraging that you think Valve are making big strides towards improving TF2 for both spheres of players. I might be barking up the wrong tree as someone who plays pubs exclusively (and sporadically), but I can't help feel like there's untapped potential in TF2 even in it's current form... Still, I'll wait with interest to see what this beta produces.

Indeed - and you could add, why not play some more CTF maps competitively too? Then perhaps you'd see the other classes come into their own more. As far as I'm aware they only play Push type maps competitively.

A bit restrictive methinks. It was the same in TFC - they got into this mindset where they wouldn't play anything else apart from CTF!

 

[Seagull]

You mention having to stay competitive with other teams - what if the format was shaken up to encourage clans to play 8v8, or 10v10, even 12v12? Would you really just add more soldiers and scouts? What if you set class limits and/or had a way of agreeing team loadouts beforehand and having to abide by them for the duration? How come clans don't play on a larger spread of maps?

It's encouraging that you think Valve are making big strides towards improving TF2 for both spheres of players. I might be barking up the wrong tree as someone who plays pubs exclusively (and sporadically), but I can't help feel like there's untapped potential in TF2 even in it's current form... Still, I'll wait with interest to see what this beta produces.

The format was never really straight-out decided on 6v6. There have been 8v8/9v9/7v7 leagues in the past and they've all failed. What happens with so many players is individual lives don't matter as much, so players can make mistakes, die, but it won't matter much to the team as a whole. 6v6 has the players balanced so that one life isn't everything, but it really means something - if one player goes down on the opposing team then I know my team can start pushing. This allows for individual skill to at least matter to the team as a whole - if one of my guys clutches a 2v1 in a 6v6 game, it's huge. If they clutch it in a 12v12, it doesn't really mean much.

Furthermore, class limits were essentially required in those formats (as it is right now in 6v6) - if there were no class limits, I would probably run 3 medics and then a variety of spam classes to hold chokepoints (specifically, soldiers and demomen). With the massive amount of spam, sentries would be useless, a spy would hardly get to my medic if I had so much spam, snipers would be spammed from long distance, scouts would be nearly useless, and a pyro would be insta-gibbed. The other team would have to play with the same classes, otherwise they would lose simply to the spam. There is also the fact that getting 6 people on a team who you like to play with and are highly skilled at their classes is difficult - I can't imagine trying to get 8, 9, or 12.

As it stands now, class limits are essentially required to have a playable game. European Leagues used to run 1 medic limit, 2 of everything else. What happened was that people would run 2 demomen/1 soldier/2 scouts/1 medic, and with that much spam power the other team would be forced to run 2 demomen as well (if they weren't already). The game would slow way down and the only way to push up on a 5CP map would be with an ubercharge since there was no other way to get through that much spam power. The league decided it made the game not even fun to play, and restricted demomen to 1 for the following tournaments.

Competitive players play all maps that are suitable for the format. We play most CP maps that are good (granary, badlands, yukon, follower, well, etc) as well as attack/defend maps (Gravelpit being the only really good attack/defend map - there are others like an edited Dustbowl with the 3rd stage removed, but players ended up not liking them since matches took forever). We used to play CTF, but the American scene gradually shifted away from that sometime early last year. I got into the game around September so I'm not sure why, but the Europeans still play balanced CTF maps like Turbine. All classes come into use on Attack/Defend maps as well as CTF - when Dustbowl was used last season my team ran 2 engys/sold/dem/med/scout, for example. On Gravelpit, the map is so good that almost all the situational classes come into use - snipers/engys are common when defending B as well as heavies when defending the C tower. In CTF, spies are used to tap the flag when it's out, as well as engys to defend the flag.

This game has a ton of potential, the game just has to be balanced first. I'm just waiting for the day when any random player can join a game, play any class and not be nearly useless to his team when compared to the top4 classes (sold/dem/med/scout). There are so many strategies that can be used/invented when Valve starts to balance the game, I'm actually pretty excited.

About the beta itself, they are throwing a ton of edited stuff at us, some aimed at competition and some aimed at pubs, you can see most of the changes we're testing here: (most, if not all, are correct): http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=930130

 

[Laivasse]

Thanks for taking the time to break that all down. It's pretty interesting to someone like me who wondered why competitive TF2 has settled into the form it has.

 

[i_liek_shootan]

Thanks for the insight.

This was one of the reasons advanced movement skills were so loved in clan play TFC - they negated the effects of spam and encouraged more strategic defence. this allowed for 8v8 games as the standard.

Still. You didn't really give a reason as to why you don't play CTF . I understand you got into the scene after that decision was made - but I'd like to know the thinking behind that one.

CTF was a nice elegant form of Team Fortress - you knew where you were with it!

 

[Sheepo]

So? If you're so tired of it why do you keep posting in such threads? rofl

And let's be fair - there's a b it more to it than just jumping above grenades at the right time. Or were you one of those who couldn't do handheld conc jumps

1) What? This thread wasn't created by Darkseid and isn't specifically about the topic in question. LOL.

2) Being above the grenade in the right location at the right time. Not sure if I don't understand your phrasing or if it's a typo, but yes, I once could do conc jumps. I wasn't spectacular but I was alright. Over time I played less TFC and going back, I can't really do them and I no longer particularly care for them. They essentially throw away all the distinction between classes (along with the thousands of unnecessary weapons).

 

[Cornerstone]

Why do I have this itching feeling that they play tested the "non casual" TF2 beta on casual fans to develop it?

 

[i_liek_shootan]

Did you used to throw the grenade on the floor and jump over it or use the prime command to keep in in your "hand"?

 

[Darkside55]

Man, you remember in 2000 when Gabe Newell wanted to remove HH in the 1.5 patch?

Lot of good that did. All that happened was it changed the dynamic a little bit, and for awhile people were like, "Oh, it's so hard to conc jump now, you have to throw it on the floor and swing the mouse this way and strafe and practically be facing the conc," and in reality it was just like, "Hold grenade. Swing mouse. Jump."

 

[i_liek_shootan]

TF 1.5 ... ahhh memories.

Also the infamous netcode release

 

[Warbie]

You mention having to stay competitive with other teams - what if the format was shaken up to encourage clans to play 8v8, or 10v10, even 12v12? Would you really just add more soldiers and scouts? What if you set class limits and/or had a way of agreeing team loadouts beforehand and having to abide by them for the duration? How come clans don't play on a larger spread of maps?

I think with teams bigger than 6 things get too messy and random in TF2 (it was the same in rtcw and et). I was in a 7 vs 7 (2 medics) and 6 vs 6 (1 medic) league for a year and the difference between the two games was massive - the former being a complete mess that came down more to individual skills and luck than teamplay. It was more like team death match. 6 vs 6 is very tight and the focus firmly on teamplay. It works well and I doubt any class rebalancing will change this as being the team size used for matches. I do hope it makes more classes viable so we can mix up tactics a little, though.

 

[i_liek_shootan]

I think with teams bigger than 6 things get too messy and random in TF2 (it was the same in rtcw and et). I was in a 7 vs 7 (2 medics) and 6 vs 6 (1 medic) league for a year and the difference between the two games was massive - the former being a complete mess that came down more to individual skills and luck than teamplay. It was more like team death match. 6 vs 6 is very tight and the focus firmly on teamplay. It works well and I doubt any class rebalancing will change this as being the team size used for matches. I do hope it makes more classes viable so we can mix up tactics a little, though.

I think that's because the game types played competitively ARE a bit more Team Deathmatchy than the classic Fortress CTF dynamic ( as in QWTF, TFC, + all non official Fortress mods).

Push type maps especially have more of a Deathmatch feel. With CTF you have a clearly defined defence and offence which I guess allows for bigger teams and more use of the other classes.

I guess whether you believe this is for the best or not in turn depends on whether or not you believe in Adam Smith's invisble hand, to make an analogy of a metaphor.

Was the best gametype landed upon by the competitive community via the invisible hand of the "market" because it is the best suited mode? Or was it just a chance fluke which gained enough traction to become a bandwagon.