Setting up a RAID system

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staddydaddy

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I've been looking into RAID setup for a while now and I was posting a thread to get some of your opinions and ideas.

To start out, I do alot of digital photography and on my current set up I am practically out of space. What I need to accomplish is mass storage and secure my data against failure (drives crashing etc). At first I was thinking about buying a dvd-r drive so I could backup my photography data. As I was thinking about it, I thought I would probably be pretty inconvenient cause dvd-r's (I think) only store up to 5 gigs.

My next thought was a RAID setup. I've researched it a bit and I'm thinking that I'm going to go with a RAID 1 setup. Basically I don't want to have backup my files on removeable media cause it's a hassel. I would really be devistated if I lost all my photography data because I've spent so many hours working on it.

Has anyone here setup or do you run a RAID setup? If so what should I be looking for in drives. It's my understanding that You have to buy 2 identicle drives. My mobo currently supports RAID 0 and 1 so I believe I'm good on the harware side. My mobo also supports SATA but I'm not really sure on the pros/cons of SATA vs IDE. Is SATA more reliable, faster? When buying drives for my RAID setup should I favor SATA? I'm looking at buying two 250 gig, 7k, 8mb buffer drives

So my prioities are:

1.) Stability (against crashes)
2.) Capacity
3.) Performance (as in access times / speed)
4.) Noise (low if possible)

If you could, any recommendations or comment would be extremely appreciated.
 
Im interested in setting up a Raid 0 configuration. So if anyone knows any good websites explaining how to set up Raid arrays I think wed both appreciate it.
 
you should try some hardware sites like tomshardware, anandtech maybe some overclocking sites for reviews and roundups of harddrives. The ones I used (in sig) were rated quite high and run fast and quiet.
 
Yes, you want to buy 2 identical harddrives if you are doing RAID (makes it easier).

Tips on buying a Harddrive
1) By a name brand harddrive (Western Digital, Maxtor, Seagate, etc) for stability. Check out www.newegg.com and see how many people suffer from harddrive failures.
2) Pay attention to rotational speed (7200 is good)
3) Pay attention to cache size. 8 MB is recommended.
4) Pay attention to access time. Faster is better. IIRC, something below 9 ms second should be good.

I personally have a SATA RAID 0 setup right now. I would go with SATA RAID since SATA supports RAID natively. Installing a SATA raid on windows XP requries you to do this when installing Windows.

Be sure to put your motherboard SATA drivers on a floppy disk. You will use that when installing Windows XP.

1) Set up your array according to your motherboard manual.
2) Install Windows 2000/XP is setting up, at the first blue screen hit F6 to load a third party mass storage driver. If you miss this, you will be warned that there are no hard drives attached. Restart the machine and tap the F6 key and complete the routine. It will then prompt you for an OEM disk for your Mass Storage Controller. Insert the floppy your created and load the driver. This will let you use your raid. Leave this floppy in the drive.
3) Choose install to the empty disk and choose NTFS Full format, not quick. If you don't have any other hard drisks on your regular IDE channels, there can be a LONG pause after the forat, be patient.
4) If you had a the long pause during isntall, you will have teh same booting into windows. Once teh install is all done, go into the BIOS, and change "Auto" to "None" for all channels where there are no devices connected. This is for your regular IDE channels, NOT your RAID array.
5) Let WIndows do its thing.
 
Thanks alot man, that was extremly informative. I didn't know I had to reinstall windows! haha well looks like im going to have to. Maybe that will fix my fps problem with VST.

Is SATA faster than IDE? or what makes it different?

Also I have two IDE drives already do you know If I'll be able to keep them or since I'm running RAID will it not a allow non RAID drives to be running?

Thanks again, I read my mobo manual but it wasn't that informative. I'll probably be back for approval for drives I've looked at.
 
Theoretically, SATA allows for more bandwith (150 MB/s compared to 130MB/s). In reality, harddrive only currentlyhave a burst speed of 80 MB/s. So the extra bandwith provided by SATA is not put to use. However, SATA has a much smaller cable, which improves airflow. SATA also has no jumpers, and is the future standard for the ATA interface. It has some other really minor differences, but for the most part an identical SATA and IDE drive will perform the same. I would get the SATA drives just because it is so much easier to work with SATA cables.

As for other hard drives, sure they can run as seperate drives. They can't be part of the RAID array though. They will be labeled as Drive D, E, etc.

For installing them, if you don't want to nuke everything, you may be able to install the drives (with the IDE one's still attached), boot up windows and then install the drivers that way. That may save you the hassle of reformating (remember to set up your RAID in your bios though).

You may want to e-mail your motherboards tech support and see what they suggest. They can also tell you what specific SATA driver to use (my motherboard CD came with several driver versions) and they can provide you with better, motherboard specific guidance than I can.
 
Intell provided a floppy already with the RAID drivers so I think I'm good on drivers. Thank you for all your advice that you've given me.

How do these drives look to you slash which one would you buy? Do you think that that WD "raid specific" drive is worth it? or just marketting?

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=22-145-071&depa=1
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=22-144-327&depa=1
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=22-144-179&depa=1
 
http://www.wdc.com/en/products/Products.asp?DriveID=87

Raid Edition Hard Drive said:
IMPORTANT: Because of the time-limited error recovery feature, this product is intended for server applications and is not recommended for use in desktop systems.
Click to expand...

I'm a bit skeptical about that raid edition harddrive. Primarily because I don't know anything about it. Maybe somebody can elighten you and me about its special features.

The safe bet would be going with the Maxtor harddrive. However, the Western Digital Caviar series has a better reputation. You may want to go to Compusa (or where ever) and see if they sell the Western Digital Caviar drive in 250 GB. You can also buy the Western Digital Caviar drive through WD's website. (look on right hand side on the link below). The Maxtor is still a good drive though.

http://www.wdc.com/en/products/Products.asp?DriveID=59

One other thing, you want to make sure you have adequate airflow with your case. These fancier harddrives put out a decent amount of heat. Make sure they are going to receive a fair amount of intake airflow to keep them properly cool. That will help prolong the life of a harddrive. You don't need to buy those harddrive cooling kits (it does provides a little bit of extra cooling, but creates a lot of extra noise), just make sure that your harddrives will get some proper airflow.
 
The average seek time is 9.3 ms which is a pretty significant jump. If you really need the space, go for it, otherwise the 250 GB's look a bit better. You want to find a hard drive with an average seek time around 8.9 ms or lower.
 
I noticed that difference too. Is .4 ms really that big of a jump? Maybe it's cause I dont know alot of technical info about how seek time affects how fast the drive is but .4 ms seems neglible to me.

how much better is the 16mb buffer?
 
Do you think a .4 difference in a seek time should be (what ever is the opposite of neglible)
 
staddydaddy said:
Do you think a .4 difference in a seek time should be (what ever is the opposite of neglible)
Click to expand...

Do you want the extra speed, or the extra storage space? It really is up to you. Which feature is more important to you? Some more speed or some more space? Don't forget to add price into the mix as well.

The .4 ms seek time difference will result in a slightly slower harddrive. If you are using it primarily for archiving stuff, it shouldn't matter that much. You may notice a difference with game loading times and if you ever use those hard drives as a server.

Also the 300 GB Maxtor HD requires the use of SATA power connectors. If your power supply doesn't have 2 of them (one for each hard drive), you will either have to find another hard drive or buy a new power supply.

The Maxtor MaXLine III or the Western Digital Caviar are both great choices. Find the one with the features that fit you the best. I can't decide that for you. Both of those harddrive are excellent.
 
blahblahblah said:
the 300 GB Maxtor HD requires the use of SATA power connectors. If your power supply doesn't have 2 of them (one for each hard drive), you will either have to find another hard drive or buy a new power supply.
Click to expand...
uhh couldn't I just buy an adapter?

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=12-105-008&depa=0

and does my mobo/raid controller/something have to support NCQ [Native Command Queuing] or does NCQ work no matter what controller I have?

Thanks again man, You've been so extremely helpful.
 
staddydaddy said:
uhh couldn't I just buy an adapter?

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=12-105-008&depa=0

and does my mobo/raid controller/something have to support NCQ [Native Command Queuing] or does NCQ work no matter what controller I have?

Thanks again man, You've been so extremely helpful.
Click to expand...

I didn't know they made adapters. Yeah, you can use those instead.

AFAIK, NCQ is part of the SATA specification. There should be no extra requirements to use NCQ. The only thing NCQ requires is to have a program that takes full advantage of it.
 
Yeah, they make adapters for basically any power need. I had to have the special P4 power plug thing and I was ussing an old PSU and just got an adapter for it.
 
I bought two of the maxtor maxline III 300gb 16mb buffer tonight. Now I got to put together a game plan of how to set them up in raid 1. Thanks for you help BLAH BLAH BLAH.
 
Those are some sweet hard drives. I was looking at getting one but in the end I decided I didnt need another HD. I have seen some bencmarks where they are almost on par with the raptors for game loading.

Anyways can someone clear this up for me. I have heard some people say that NCQ can only be used in dual cpu systems while others say that you dont need a dual CPU system. I am wondering if there is a difference between NCQ on scsi drives vs sata. Can someone clear that up for me?
 
blahblahblah said:
Yes, you want to buy 2 identical harddrives if you are doing RAID (makes it easier).

Tips on buying a Harddrive
1) By a name brand harddrive (Western Digital, Maxtor, Seagate, etc) for stability. Check out www.newegg.com and see how many people suffer from harddrive failures.
2) Pay attention to rotational speed (7200 is good)
3) Pay attention to cache size. 8 MB is recommended.
4) Pay attention to access time. Faster is better. IIRC, something below 9 ms second should be good.

...........
Click to expand...

I'd like to add that you cannot have any other HDDs attatched to your computer when you install a SATA disk or a RAID array...

I've got the experience :(
 
Well, The drives arrived at my house on friday and I started getting them setup but now I'm having trouple. I'll run you through what I did and what problems I am encountering.

Ok so I took out my old drives ( The IDE cable is still attached to the mobo). Plugged the SATA cable in, got the power adapter plugged in). Got the RAID driver diskette that came with my mobo ready, and put my windows XP CD in the cd rom drive. I boot up the windows install thing. Tapped F6 to install a mass storage device, inserted the RAID drivers floppy.

Now this is where something kinda wierd happened but I'm not exactly sure that it matters. When the windows installer read the floppy, and then said

"You have chosen to configure a SCSI Adapter for use with Windows, using a device support disk provided by an adapter manufacturer."

Should it be saying this even though I'm installing RAID drivers?

The windows installation continued and it then prompted me to choose where I wanted to install windows to. At this point it gave me the option of installing it on either drive. I thought this was wierd because shouldn't the computer see the two drives as one? I wasn't sure so I installed it on the first drive. Something else that was wierd that happened was that it was showing the drives at ~120gb when they are 300 gig drives. I know there is something about how mathematically an IDE drive isnt suppose to be able to go above 120gigs but I'm not sure if that's related in this case. I did a full format and then installed windows. It installed properly and I could boot it up and run windows. I then went into the My Computer folder and it showed one drive having 120gigs of free space and something like 270 gig used up.

After I installed acouple of drives, I went into the RAID "bios" (not sure what you call it) set up. I noticed that it was seeing the two drives seperately and not as one raid volume. I then set the two drives up to run in RAID 1. I rebooted the computer and it cant recognize any drives.

I'm in a real jam here because I think I have multiple problems going on, the 120gig cap and I don't think that the computer is running the drives in RAID. I also leave for college tomorrow morning and would like to take care of this today. I greatly appreciate any help anyone would have to offer.
 
You probably have to do a completely fresh install.

The first step is to create the raid array according to your motherboard manual (through your bios or something similar). If you don't do that, Windows doesn't even know where to start looking. Then you follow the steps listed above.

For windows, you want to install SATA drivers (which also double for RAID duty). Just want to make sure you put the right drivers on the floppy disk.

For Windows installing warnings, IIRC, windows always calls my SATA raid 0 a SCSI or mass storage controller. So I wouldn't worry too much. The key is to make sure you set up your RAID in your motherboard and then install the proper drivers in windows setup.
 
I don't think that I had my raid array configured when I installed windows the first time. I went to make a fresh install after I configured the two drives into one RAID 1 array. I hit F6 and loaded my RAID drivers properly. Then windows loaded the other drivers for cd roms drives and all that stuff. IIRC, after this you should be prompted with a screen on where you want to install windows.

Instead, I get this message:
"Setup did not find any hard disk drives install in your computer.

Make sure any hard disk drives are powered on and properly connected to your computer, and that any disk-related hardware configuration is correct. This may involve running a manufacturer-supplied diagonstic or setup program.

Setup cannot continue. To quit Setup, press F3"

I don't understand why the windows install cd cant see the drives. When I got into the bios, and choose what boot priority I want it sees the two drives as one.
 
ack sorry. I just got these drivers right before you posted. I feel bad you're helpin me so much man. You extremely helpful.

I think the original drivers (3.0) that came with my mobo didn't support RAID1 and now these new ones (3.5) do. I think this because I reconfigured the raid array into RAID 0 and the windows install was able to recognize the drives.

I'll see how this turns out.
 
Also something else that is wierd. In my BIOS when I check the stat's on the drives it shows them as 300.1 gigs but then when I go into the "RAID bios" it shows them as 279.4 gigs. Should there be a discrepancy like that?
 
staddydaddy said:
Also something else that is wierd. In my BIOS when I check the stat's on the drives it shows them as 300.1 gigs but then when I go into the "RAID bios" it shows them as 279.4 gigs. Should there be a discrepancy like that?
Click to expand...

There are two ways to measure bytes, MB, GB, etc.

Some programs (like Windows) and harddrive manufacturers use 1,000,000 bytes equals a megabyte. While others use 1,048,576 bytes equals a megabyte.

That is the reason why you have different programs showing your harddrive has different storage capabilites.
 
ok I thought it was the whole Binanry <-> numeric difference but I wasnt sure.

windows is installing and working well. I'm noticing some clicking noises coming from the drives? Should I be concerned about this?

I read alot about deskstars clicking alot and then dieing? Same case? I think it would be quite ironic if i stopped using my "deathstar" and had a supposedly "more stable" drive fail on me.
 
staddydaddy said:
ok I thought it was the whole Binanry <-> numeric difference but I wasnt sure.

windows is installing and working well. I'm noticing some clicking noises coming from the drives? Should I be concerned about this?

I read alot about deskstars clicking alot and then dieing? Same case? I think it would be quite ironic if i stopped using my "deathstar" and had a supposedly "more stable" drive fail on me.
Click to expand...

LOL, at the deathstar.

Send an email to Maxtor tech support and see what they say about the clicking noise. I would call that unusual.

They also have a nifty utility called powermax that can be used as a diagnosis tool. However, they are slow as dirt for updating it for new harddrives, so it may not work with yours. It's worth a shot though.

http://www.maxtor.com/portal/site/M...tware Downloads/ATA Hard Drives&downloadID=22

Also, my motherboard came with a nifty program called SATARaid. It is a program that logs and notify you of any events going on with your harddrive. However, it is only meant for Silicon Image's hardware. Your motherboard may have a similar utility. It would be worth another look on your motherboard driver's CD.

PS - Double check to make sure your SATA cables and your molex connectors are making good connections to the harddrives.
 
This is wierd, I layed the computer on it's side (so that the HD platters would be prependicular to the ground) and the clicking stopped. They were clicking when the platters were parallel.
 
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