Some level design issues (Gold Source)

[Colonel Kernel]

Hey,
I've been struggling recently with the proper way of level design - OK, I've been mapping for a while but one question pops up: when do many brushes kill the map?

I mean, leaks are caused by not closing the map properly from the void OR not letting the tools know which is in - and which is out of the map. If I start out making a map just as hollow boxes that get connected eventually by tunnels, that causes leaks. But if I fill the "gaps" between the rooms with other brushes, and if there are a lot of them, and eventually form the map as one huge polygon (ceiled shut from the void), would that cause high polygon counts - because of the multiple brushes used to fill the gaps?

I hope you got my idea and concerns, I had a hard time explaining it.

 

[Vegeta897]

I don't understand how you are getting leaks from connecting empty rooms together.

 

[Colonel Kernel]

Well, you wouldn't get leaks if you used the Valve tools (or they wouldn't be that much of a problem if they occurred) but when you use ZHLT, the leak doesn't even let you compile - like that. Basically the tools can't base what is IN and what, OUT of the map when you make levels the "easy" way (hollowing out big blocks and then connecting them with tunnels made the same way). But filling the gaps between the blocks may fix this problem, but the question remains - will the tools recognize which is IN/OUT of the map and will it increase polygon counts that drastically?

 

[Vegeta897]

I don't know what 'gaps' you are talking about. If you are doing things correctly, there should be no gaps. And what is the problem you're referring to of the tools not recognizing what is in and what is out? I've never had that problem, and you shouldn't either as long as you make your maps properly. And what does any of that have to do with polygon counts?

Can you post an rmf or something to demonstrate what you're talking about?

 

[Colonel Kernel]

What do you mean by making my maps properly - certain laws of mapping that I need to follow?

And here, this is what I wanted to say by "gaps":

http://www.filefront.com/16470857/gaps-no_gaps.rar

Wouldn't the fact that there are many brushes affect polygon counts?

 

[Vegeta897]

Uhh what the hell. What's with those huge blocks around everything? Those are completely unnecessary. If you are making your map correctly, you should not need those. This map is made very sloppily, you've got lots of intersecting brushes and shit.

Let me fix this up for you so you can see what I mean by 'made properly'.

Edit: http://www.mediafire.com/?ext5wojanl4

Having a player start probably helps determine what is 'in'

 

[Colonel Kernel]

First of all, I'm sorry for the bad examples, I was quite in a hurry yesterday night.

So, let me put it this way, why did Valve chose to take the time and fill in the spaces with brushes like me? There must be a reason, no doubt. Try decompiling some Half-Life 1 levels and check them out if you haven't - this is what you'll see. Each level looks like a polygon from the outside.

I think the thing that determines what is "In" are the spaces but if they are not sealed, they are considered "unfinished" by the compile tools and report a leak.

 

[Vegeta897]

I seriously have no god damn idea what you are talking about. What ****ing "spaces" are being "filled in"? There should be no spaces that need filling in if you don't make mistakes when making your map. Look at the map you uploaded with all those useless extra blocks compared to the fixed version I uploaded. The version I have is how the map should be made.

 

[Colonel Kernel]

Spaces? I meant putting those extra blocks - why did Valve make it that way? Why did they put those brushes in the first place?

This is snark_pit from the outside:

See the difference? It is this way because it has extra blocks all around the map.

Now, could you tell me why it is like that, if you know?

Here is a shot from gasworks:

Note that the camera was inside an "extra block" and as you see from that, there are other blocks bellow and besides this one.

Check for yourself - decompile a deathmatch map and look around.

 

[Vegeta897]

Like I said, I have no idea why those are there, but all the mapping guides I've ever read, and also common sense, tells me that there is no point to those.

 

[Barnz]

they didn't. that's how decompile process work. it creates new brushes.

 

[Vegeta897]

I suspected that.

 

[Colonel Kernel]

Why the hell?

 

[Barnz]

http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Decompiling_Maps

 

[Colonel Kernel]

Oh, I see.

OK, so what should I be aware of, mostly.. concerning leaks?
...No player start outside the map...No light outside the map... No entities whatsoever outside the map...
is there anything I've missed?

 

[Barnz]

Nothing outside of the map, except the stuff like camera room, or 3D skybox room.

 

[Vegeta897]

Well he's making Gold Source maps so...

Also, just incase you didn't know, you shouldn't have your brushes be like this:

That may cause leaking.

Also I hope you know as a general rule (nothing to do with leaks) that you should be very careful with the carve function.

 

[Colonel Kernel]

Right, I got it. Thank you, and sorry for the headaches I've caused to you recently.




Never mind this:

Spoiler

Yay, 200 posts!