The problem with difficulty

[Roland Deschain]

Anybody who has played Far Cry knows how difficut these new generation first person shooters can get.

I mean, with bigger environment, smarter AI, a lot more interactivity makes for a lot more confustion; also all these new complexities can make the game difficult (on any difficulty level) and therefore tedious (as was the case with FarCry).

In FarCry they tried to address that with what 6 difficulty setting, but it really wasn't effective, since it was really frustrating to play on normal (2 easiest).

This may have nothing to do with HL2 (god knows, Half Life 1 was really easy on hard), but I do hope they look at FarCry's many shortfalling (no quicksave, cough cough) and try to solve them.

 

[SubKamran]

Anybody who has played Far Cry knows how difficut these new generation first person shooters can get.

I mean, with bigger environment, smarter AI, a lot more interactivity makes for a lot more confustion; also all these new complexities can make the game difficult (on any difficulty level) and therefore tedious (as was the case with FarCry).

In FarCry they tried to address that with what 6 difficulty setting, but it really wasn't effective, since it was really frustrating to play on normal (2 easiest).

This may have nothing to do with HL2 (god knows, Half Life 1 was really easy on hard), but I do hope they look at FarCry's many shortfalling (no quicksave, cough cough) and try to solve them.

I miss the days of going in all guns blazing I didn't like FarCry because it took so long to aim and I didn't like the weapons.

 

[ailevation]

:x Everything is sluggish in FarCry, and it actually takes time and thinking just to get past to the next part.

 

[Neutrino]

I miss the days of going in all guns blazing I didn't like FarCry because it took so long to aim and I didn't like the weapons.

Try Painkiller then.

 

[Roland Deschain]

Bah, no Painkiller is as bad as FarCry. I didn't find the weapons sluggish, but playing through one checkpoint 20 times does take away the joy.

Plus, HL2 please don't create unbelivingly fast monsters that with one swipe can take away all your shield (talking about farcry again).

 

[A.I.]

I didn't like the gameplay of FarCry too. It's somehow an alien feeling with those weapons, AI (those stupid comments) and stuff. But when the Trigons started to show up I just gave up... My brother and my cousin also lost the will to continue after encountering Trigons. The story and the way that story is told (really poorly) just enough far-fetched to kill the will to continue...

 

[AJ Rimmer]

I tried far cry, wasn't impressed. Pretty mindless and my graphic card wasn't good enough to make me go ohhh and ahhhh over the graphic.

 

[marksmanHL2 :)]

I hated the controls in farcry... they "lagged" on my computer.. .which it just shouldnt at 3.2ghz, 9800 pro and 1024bm ram.... :naughty:


Ahem, however! I did find a way to easily finish the game...


Go to a place where they find it hard to reach you...

Then snipe some random guards...

Then just wait for the enemy to fall into your crosshairs...

They all go the same way...

Death.

 

[Chris D]

I agree that Far Cry was a bit over-challenging.

Valve aren't into making the game difficult for no reason though. They thrive on making the best experience possible, that includes making sure the game is as balanced as possible.

 

[merc]

far cry was easy but on the matter of quick save in hl2, i can say that it is in their as they had me quicksave before a few areas because they knew i was going to die a couple times... lol

-merc

 

[Citizen 1150421]

i feel far cry was kinda clunky and sluggish mainly because of how the tech was implemented to run on a wide range of comps. it was just poorly done. Hl 2 however, valve knows how to optimize a game so that its getting every ounce of juice out of oyu comp for the best game play. far cry felt like the guns were too heavy or something (bulky?) the ai wasn't great once you see them act from a distance then all the character patterns were pradictable. i finished the game however but didn;t like the levels where you have to baby sit the girl god damn was that poorly done. you are crouching or laying down trying to infiltrate and she is walking besides you ..damn that was lame. plus i think the poly counts on all the characters was too high cause when they are alot of them in the scene the comp slowed down cause it was too busy thinking

i can go on and on dissin far cry.. i don't know why it got such a high rating i guess the world was just aching for a next gen shooter.. i wonder when those will come out.

F.E.A.R

 

[AJ Rimmer]

far cry was easy but on the matter of quick save in hl2, i can say that it is in their as they had me quicksave before a few areas because they knew i was going to die a couple times... lol

-merc

Glad to hear it. Call me a n00b if you'd like but I like the security of being able to quick-save.
I like Max Payne's system of auto-adjusting difficulty, it works pretty well.
It could definately work well in HL2

 

[obiwanquinobi]

Personally, I loved FarCry - I liked the idea of not being able to just wade in 'gung ho' style....

The second time around - I found I missed about 70% of the game - It really is HUUUUGGE!

I hope Half Life 2 is just as hard as FarCry - theres nothing like spending ages on the same bit - then finally cracking it!! Such satisfaction :frog:

Maybe im a Masochist???

 

[Dalamari]

I dont like games in which I need to work on the same part over and over, I like when the difficulty varies in a game, so it isn't a slow progression of difficulty and you never know what might be around the next corner.

 

[A2597]

the humans in farcry were pretty easy, challenging for a gun-ho person? Sure. But I have ALWAYS been a sniper. the missions with mercs consisted of sneaking around with the binoculars adding guys to radar, choosing a good vantage point using sniper if I was far away, or single shot MP5 from closer. max attempts on a mission: 2. one where I missed a Rocket lancher, and the demo mission, because they moved two people....

 

[iamaelephant]

Just to get back on topic, instead of mindless, pointless Far Cry bashing, I agree with the topic poster. In fact I posted something similar a couple of months ago.

Although I really enjoyed Far Cry, I did think it was a bit difficult. I almost always play FPS games on Easy because, well, I suck at them. I really, really enjoy playing FPS games on easy, just running around shooting stuff and admiring the environments. Unfortauntely this was not possible in FC (or mny other modern FPS games) because for some reason Easy doesnt mean Easy anymore.

What is the point in giving us the option of multiple difficulties if you're just going to make it really hard on Easy? What if some kid who has never played a FPS before buys Far Cry, do you think he is going to enjoy it? Of course not. I love that we have the option of difficulties, but it just seems strange to me that so many new games are so hard, even on Easy.

 

[KagePrototype]

I don't find Far Cry that hard really...it just tests your patience. It's a very slow game, you can't move too quickly. Plus you gotta know how to hide effectively.

 

[iamaelephant]

I don't find Far Cry that hard really...it just tests your patience. It's a very slow game, you can't move too quickly. Plus you gotta know how to hide effectively.

Maybe you didn't find it difficult, but you're probably better at games than people like me. I dont play FPS games a huge amount, so when I pick Easy I want to be able to play through the game without having to repeat bits over and over.

 

[guchi]

in the e3 demos, the guy lost like 3 health, total :| i think that might be the easy setting , or possibly just a super easy version made specifficly for e3...

 

[A True Canadian]

I started to play Far Cry agaain because I was bored. I tried it on Realistic and I am having a great time. I only finished the first level and I know that once the Trigens come in I won't be continuing, but the gameplay does change.


The only real difference that the Realistic setting presented was that the enemies did more damage to you. This forces you to be more sneaky and think before you act. Far Cry did this really well before the Trigens were introduced and stole the fun away. :flame:
I became scared to do things because the Trigens were too powerful and fast.


Anyway, I feel that there should be a system similar to Far Cry's when upping the difficulty. Keep the damage system the same for them, but increase the damage dealt to you as the setting goes up. Like Max Payne, have the AI get smarter as the difficulty is increased and adjust to your playing methods. And include more things to shoot at instead of making the enemies tougher to kill. :sniper::sniper::sniper: :sniper::sniper::sniper:


Quick-saves should not be needed if Valve uses the auto-save function like they did in the first Half-Life. Before an encounter with a lot of enemies the game would auto-save (usually in great locations) and you wouldn't need to redo areas over again. It wasn't perfect, but it saved me a few times.


Far Cry's levels took quite a long time to load, and I'm hoping that Valve continues with the small load times scattered about to make it seem like one big level. With Far Cry, you could skip unwanted levels and go to the one's you had fun with. :hmph: This takes away the longevity of the game unfortunately. With the original Half-Life, it wasn't so easy. Far Cry's short-comings are more obvious because of this level-by-level transition.


Almost all games have this level-by-level style and a save system that allows you to access any level you want, once you've played it through the first time. Let's think of successful games that do not have this save system:

• Half-Life
• Grand Theft Auto 3 & Vice City
• Deus Ex

I'm babbling again, but I have faith in Valve. No matter what they decide to do, I will still replay the game over and over. :cheers:

 

[Dr0ndeh]

some of us played and finished farcry on the hardest setting, and loved every minute of it. i dont like the 'i cant wait for hl2 therefore ever other shooter is shit' attitude of some of the people on this board. farcry is a fantastic game that deserves all the praise it gets. i suspect that i wont find hl2 challenging in the slightest compaired to farcry. we'll have to see tho.

 

[adulus]

Farcry was meaqnt to be a lil slower than most FPS. Also, it was meant to make you think about taking down the merc camps. If you went in all guns blazing, you where likely to go out in a body bag. But I find it fun once in a while to just take out the snipers in the towers and hunt down the rest with an MP5sd(no power, but accurate enough to make good headshots) But i digress. I found the harder difficulty made you think and shoot rather than shoot. An the levels. Wow, such huge level. They really took advantage of the 1.2KM draw distance.
My gripe about it is though, that the finished game is very buggy, and Punkbuster ruined multiplayer. It feels more like a beta release than a finished game.

 

[Chadda]

Far Cry on realistic is the only way to play it. You really had to think about everything you're doing. Fantastic. Plus for other people that don't like it too difficult you could use the Adjustable AI setting where if you failed a certain part a few times the AI would back off a bit to help you through.

One thing that was a bit dodgey about Far Cry though was the ability of the AI to see you hidden in the jungle etc. This didn't always happen but I really got pee'd off when someone shot me from across the map when I just spent 15mins crawling through jungle...utter BS. But then again maybe they had their special binoculars as well as randomly scanned the jungle...still it was a bit dodgey.

Also, this may need a new thread, but does ne1 know if HL2 will have fluid dynamics as in "if I drop an object (heavy ball for example) in some water, ripples will radiate in a realistic way and even create a lapping motion at the shore line". If HL2 did this I think I will wet my pants!

 

[HeadcrabOnMyAss]

No, that won't happen. The only thing you will get is a 'splash' sprite.

 

[Mountain Man]

Anybody who has played Far Cry knows how difficut these new generation first person shooters can get.

Far Cry was unevenly paced and poorly balanced. Bad example. Valve's meticulous and endless playtesting will ensure that the game is consistently paced, properly balanced, and entertaining from beginning to end.

 

[Sai]

wtf, did you guys actully try to go run and gun on the medium difficulty in far cry? that's probably the dumbest thing ever to possibly do when playing the game, it's almost a first person stealth game.

the trick is pretty simple, find one guard that's away from the pack...kill him, then hide in bushes and center your crosshair, wait for it to change color then shoot shoot shoot.......they never know where your coming from

 

[Roland Deschain]

About FarCry, and this will relate nicely to HL2:

Basicly the game enemies are divided in two categories: Human (merc) and mutants (can't remember the name). The human's were very well balanced although later in the game when they get helmets it gets tedious.

But here is the real problem (and one HL2 has to address): once you get to supernatural enemies (be they Xen alians or mutants from FarCry) but in a nice balance. Strong monsters are slow and dump: weak monster are fast and quickwitted (more variation of course, but you get the point).

Now what did far cry do: the fasters monsters, with one swipe, take away all your shield. The slowest mosters have a ton of HP, body armour and guess what people, rocked launchers attached to their arms. (In the final level there are four of them in a small space, so much fun).

I'm not bashing FarCry, but it has gotten too much praise. The draw distance is, well, WOW, and graphics are beautiful, but the core gameplay just didn't stack it. I don't mean it being slow; Deus Ex is slow and I play it again and again without any weapons in my invertory (just for fun), but it is tedious, and I hate nothing more than tedious (especially the boss in the helicopter, jesus).

Enjoyed FarCry but a lot of improvement needed: people at Valve, take some hints of farcry both good and bad.

 

[Tiddalick]

I always play the hardest skill possible first up....Its never very challenging...maybe im gosu
Painkiller for example, easy game even on the hardest skill level. I guess its because I have played blood. If you can play blood on the hardest skill then you can play any game at all.

 

[Lanthanide]

Far Cry, most of the time, was of acceptible difficulty (on medium). There were about 4 or 5 places that were stupidly tedious though, mainly caused by there being about 10+ riot gear troops coming at you at once, and of course the last level with the idiot rocket launcher guys.

Whereas Half Life 1 didn't really have any parts that were difficult because of the monsters (perhaps some parts of xen with the overlord doods and maybe a couple of spots with the grunts), but instead difficult because of the puzzles or obsticals in your path. I think I'd prefer more of a mix in HL2.

 

[Ahnteis]

Far Cry's levels took quite a long time to load, and I'm hoping that Valve continues with the small load times scattered about to make it seem like one big level. With Far Cry, you could skip unwanted levels and go to the one's you had fun with. :hmph: This takes away the longevity of the game unfortunately. With the original Half-Life, it wasn't so easy. Far Cry's short-comings are more obvious because of this level-by-level transition.

Load times are supposed to be about the same in HL2. (Valve thread I believe.)

 

[ailevation]

:dozey: Also, in FarCry it would only take about 4-5 hits from a SMG, Rifle, or pistol, while most explosions would kill instantly, some just tear away your life gauge and armor. Those Trigens are too strong as well, one swipe bam bye bye... well sometimes you get lucky and one claw at you leaves you alive, but almost at death.

 

[what!?]

I thought that Far Cry was moderately difficult at the normal setting. If you just took some time to plan your attack you could dispatch guards with ease, and in some cases bypass entire encampments. The jungle levels were awesome, but the indoor levels were so linear they made me cry. Far Cry was a great game and it really expanded on the FPS genre (the jungle levels with tons of routes and a very smart enemy AI), albiet being a bit unpolished.

P.S. I agree about the trigens, they were tough mothers. You know something is unbalanced when it can eviscerate you in one second from 40 ft. away and only one weapon can stop them ** caresses shotgun lovingly**.

 

[Mr-Fusion]

I only ever remember getting stuck on that last part in Far Cry, with the huge catwalk thing. Other than that it was pretty easy.

On that note i've been playing through all these games recently to pass the time till hl2 is out. What i've noticed playing through all these games on the hardest settings.

MOHAA is probably the most annoying FPS ever. The AI sees you through walls and the infinite spawning troops in that level where you have to steal the tank plans....shocking.

CoD has a really good damage system. Well balanced, doesn't get too hard.

Half-Life 1 damage system is insanely stupid. Marines take about 20 rounds from my mp5 to die. 2 shots from the magnum. After playing these modern games where guys die after a reasonable amount of bullets it seems really silly and unrealistic.

Painkiller, i'm currently playing through for the first time. I have to kill the swamp monster by shooting the bubbles. So far i'm having a shitload of fun with this game. The sound design is probably the best i've ever heard, the ambience is fantastically creepy, the gameplay is PURE SPAM!!! Love it! The havok 2 physics engine is also awesome, animation blending and detatchable limbs just add that extra bit of "omfg that's cool"

 

[crabcakes66]

I hope Half Life 2 is just as hard as FarCry - theres nothing like spending ages on the same bit - then finally cracking it!! Such satisfaction :frog:

Funny... This is probobly the thing that infuriates me most about a game.

I dont want to spend a week trying to get some impossible task just right(we get enough of that in real life)...i want to have fun.

 

[adulus]

what are you guys talking about? The monkey trigens maybe killed me twice. Just shoot them like 3 times and they're dead, jeez.

 

[Janet Reno]

Funny... This is probobly the thing that infuriates me most about a game.

I dont want to spend a week trying to get some impossible task just right(we get enough of that in real life)...i want to have fun.

So true. That's the reason I begin to hate and quit games. They should be fun and entertaining and I think valve realises that when they said they're trying to work with the gamer. If HL2 is impossibly hard I will not buy it. Some days I want to be able to enjoy the story the game offers and relax after getting home from a long day.

And I can't believe someone said HL on hard was easy. Did you get through the game without any deaths or something? I mean come on, who can honestly say that those assassin chicks were EASY to kill, especially on hard? For me, it took some work. They cloaked in Opp Forces too and that made it painful. Using explosives was my main way of killing them from what I remember because they're super fast, jumpy, ran in packs, and accurate. Usually ending me up in death But they were pretty fun to go up against.

 

[Roland Deschain]

Ha, the cloak was annoying but one/two hits from the Magnum and down they go, plus Valve put a lot of health and shield in that area (which really didn't matter since you get captured right after it).

What was annoying on hard was the headcrap mother (can't remember the name); I wasted all my radioactive ammunition as well as my bazooka ammo before that bitch died.

 

[PatPwnt]

The only problem I had beating farcry was the big fat ones with rocket launchers on their hand... in realistic that is.

 

[Flyingdebris]

i played through farcry on realistic right off the bat.

while it was fun and all, the thing that bugged me was the severe lack of scripting. As i played the game i became painfully aware of the fact that nothing would ever knock down any walls to get me, the level would not suddenly begin to collapse (with the exeption of the tanker and one cave in) The game had little fright factor because of this. As soon as you figured out the AI patterns it was only a matter of not going down in a hail of bullets.

i didn't so much mind the trigens as i minded the rediculous amounts of bullets it took to bring them down.

there was the piss poor voice acting

then there was the way that "realistic" meant that the enemy mercs seemed to have nigh impenetrable body armor and that only headshots were affective. meanwhile, they shot through your body armor (which is technically theirs) in like 1.5 seconds.

and finally what pisses me off the most is the fact that i'd have to redo an area (no matter how hard it was) even if it was totally cleared out but i managed to die in some little skirmish before the next save point. often this resulted in having very long walks or drives and repeating the same actions over and over just to get to the part where you died, to die again.

 

[Nightmare]

I loved playing FarCry against the mercs but when it got to the Trigents it kinda lost the plot, the story was, well dumb and pritty boring to say the least.

I would rather see HL2 with difficulty settings that on easy means we can walk though just mowing everything down and a hard setting that means we gota slow down and think about how the best way to go about completing a battle.