What would you do?

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I have recently read Mark Bowden's account of the U.S. Marine Corps invasion of Somalia in the early 1990's, to protect retreating U.N. Peacekeepers (Black Hawk Down). As you may recall, we invaded the city of Mogadishu to take down a prominant warlord, what ensued was (until now) the bloodiest U.S. conflict since the Vietnam War. The news reports of the time showed thousands of Somalians, men, women, and children armed to the teeth moving in on our soldiers. Our troops acted with selflessness and bravery (several were awarded the U.S. congressional medal of honor.) but many were killed in the line of duty. The book tells of women walking into the street to pick up the weapons of dead men, so as to continue thier resistance. This civilian dissention is similar to the "insurgency" the U.S. now faces in Iraq, people fighting U.S. soldiers. In no means am I trying to condone what these people are doing, I do not accept or tolerate the killing of American Soldiers and innocent Iraqi people, this is just a line of thinking I came across while trying to justify the fierceness of the Somalians resistance.
What if this happened to us, I know it is far fetched, we are afterall, the most powerful country in the world, but say it did. How would you react to a foreign invasion, if everything you knew since you grew up was said to be lies by foreigners (the very foreigners you were indoctrined to hate since childhood). If they marched down your street setting up military bases in your city hall. They take away your president. (Now I know not every Iraqi, not even the majority, loved Saddam, or hated foreigners, but there were some. Now imagine your friends, some family members (maybe those who were treated well by the government, or served in its military) began to fight off the invaders. I decided that I would take up arms, feel frightened, try to protect my family, I would feel it was my duty to resist the change to what I knew my whole life. I suppose I am just trying to walk a mile in their shoes before I judge and I realize I cannot begin to judge these people. They lost everything they had, they feel betrayed, they are willing to give their lives to a cause (a misguided one that is hard for us, in our expensive homes, typing on our expensive computers, to imagine) that they believe in. They are attacking innocent civilians in Iraq, which I cannot comprehend doing, under my previous scenario, that would be like killing a group of your neighbors at the supermarket, inconcieveable. But in Somalia it was different, in a world where they had NOTHING, the only things they could work for (warlords) were being taken away and they were forced to fight for it.
What would you do?
 
^^ Exactly what I say to people who label the many anti-coalition groups in the middle east as 'freedom haters' 'evil doers' etc *waits to be told I support terrorism*

I don't know what I'd do, likely keep my head down, because I value my life over the concept of governing bodies and patriotism.
 
burner69 said:
*waits to be told I support terrorism*

I should hope not. We obviously do not support terrorism, if you believe we do, please send a PM as I don't want an opinion like that being spread.
 
kmack said:
I should hope not. We obviously do not support terrorism, if you believe we do, please send a PM as I don't want an opinion like that being spread.

Lol, just look at any thread where me, or indeed anyone else has made a point like this.
 
That may explain why they would hit Americans. Your theory does not support the killing of innocent Iraqis.
 
Thats a very good way of looking at what's going on, it's opened my eyes alittle. If i was in iraq and in some way the old regieme benefitted me, i'd probably be up in arms about it... because now, with the US coming in, i've lost everything I grew up with. In just the same way, if France invaded the UK and took away the university education and lifestyle im benefitting from.
 
seinfeldrules said:
That may explain why they would hit Americans. Your theory does not support the killing of innocent Iraqis.

Well, they see those Iraqi's as the enemy, those Iraqi's were joining a U.S. trained military, or a U.S. backed police force. Those Iraqi's are also the one's who insurgents feel have taken over the Iraqi government.

If you go back to the American revolution, americans would turn on each other if they felt their neighbors were helping the British.

Or what about the McCarthy hearings? U.S. citizens turned on their neighbors, calling them communists, while it's not exactly murder, it is turning on your fellow americans and destroying their lives :|
 
oldagerocker said:
Thats a very good way of looking at what's going on, it's opened my eyes alittle. If i was in iraq and in some way the old regieme benefitted me, i'd probably be up in arms about it... because now, with the US coming in, i've lost everything I grew up with. In just the same way, if France invaded the UK and took away the university education and lifestyle im benefitting from.

That's exactly the way I am seeing it. We really have no right to condemn these people from our positions. Face it, we are a bunch of middle or upper class white kids, not many of us have lived like that, or had our lives uprooted in such a drastic way. Frankly, I like to think I'd have the courage to fight against something I didn't believe in.
 
Well, they see those Iraqi's as the enemy, those Iraqi's were joining a U.S. trained military, or a U.S. backed police force. Those Iraqi's are also the one's who insurgents feel have taken over the Iraqi government.
They see random Iraqis as a threat? How is a mortar attack in the middle of a town singling out those seen as a threat? It isnt. Singling out people unable to protect themselves is the low of the low. No excuses.
 
seinfeldrules said:
They see random Iraqis as a threat? How is a mortar attack in the middle of a town singling out those seen as a threat? It isnt. Singling out people unable to protect themselves is the low of the low. No excuses.

As i have said before, they generally do not attack RANDOMLY.

The attacks are directed at the police departments, and military recruitment areas. The attack today (largest in 2 years) was directed at men waiting for their physicals so they can join the police. They are also directed at Shi'ites and near the election time they were directed at voters, voting officials and polling places. In general they are not random attacks but directed to scare people off from the Police departments and military, and previously from voting. This really isn't what the topic is about, and especially since you are incorrect, making the same incorrect statement over and over, and offering nothing to back it up, I would ask you to get back to the topic at hand and stop trolling, or, leave my thread. thank you.
 
Or what about the McCarthy hearings? U.S. citizens turned on their neighbors, calling them communists, while it's not exactly murder, it is turning on your fellow americans and destroying their lives

I'm glad you mentioned that. Comparing accusations with wholescale slaughter are two completely different fields.

This really isn't what the topic is about, and especially since you are incorrect, making the same incorrect statement over and over, and offering nothing to back it up, I would ask you to get back to the topic at hand and stop trolling, or, leave my thread. thank you.
Are you kidding me? If you dont want people disagreeing with you then dont make a thread.

Look at this:

On August 29, 2003, a car bomb exploded outside of the Imam Ali Mosque in Najaf during Friday prayers killing at least 95 people

Man, people praying must be seen as a great threat to Iraq now. This is one of many similar examples.
 
seinfeldrules said:
I'm glad you mentioned that. Comparing accusations with wholescale slaughter are two completely different fields.

Lives were ruined by the McCarthy hearings, I'm just saying that it's not hard to see a country mates turning on one another. Ever heard of the US Civil War? Or any civil war?

Since you are not capable of putting yourself in these people shoes, and seem to be missing my point entirely, please stop trolling. I want people to see this from A DIFFERENT POINT OF VIEW. I don't want people to come here, skim through my post, then go about posting thier preset opinions that barely relate to this. Stop spamming my thread, I don't want your petty, uninformed argument stopping people from responding with their opinions. Please, PLEASE, PM me with the rest of your repetitive arguments.

Oh, and those people praying, Shi'ites, and I already told you why the Iraqi insurgents target Shi'ites, at least read my posts before you bring up examples of things i have already explained. "They are also directed at Shi'ites" I said that In post 10, to clarify, the insurgents see these people as their enemies because they have won the elections that the insurgents so fiercly fought and opposed. They see the Shi'ites as benefitting from the U.S. The friend of my enemy is my enemy so to speak.
 
You are saying that people should see things exactly as you put them. I am merely pointing out how it really is. These people arent in it for freedom, they are in it for terrorism. Do you honestly think Zarqawi (sp) cares one way or another how it ends up in the end? If they were attempting to fight for 'freedom' then they should be recruiting Iraqis, not killing them.

Lives were ruined by the McCarthy hearings,
At least they werent dead.
 
Your premise is flawed to begin with. Here is an actual parallel to Iraq.

*The US govt. is brought down by Anarchist West Virginian milltia fanatics in a bloody coup.

The American people live under oppression and torture for decades by this group.

The British come in at their own great expense and take out the nutcase millitia and set up a democratic election to let a proper American govt. be formed. The British are more then happy to leave once the US can stand on its own.*

Now, what would you do?

If I were involved in this situation I would probably do a lot of dropping to my knees and thanking every British soldier I saw. Killing them, or americans who had nothing to do with it would be the last thing on my mind.
 
seinfeldrules said:
You are saying that people should see things exactly as you put them. I am merely pointing out how it really is. These people arent in it for freedom, they are in it for terrorism. Do you honestly think Zarqawi (sp) cares one way or another how it ends up in the end? If they were attempting to fight for 'freedom' then they should be recruiting Iraqis, not killing them.


At least they werent dead.

"They are in it for Terrorism" I'm sorry, but that is absolute ignorance, you do not strap a bomb to yourself and commit suicide "for terrorism" what does that even mean. If you want, think of reasons they do this, but TERRORISM is not a valid reason.
 
GhostFox said:
Your premise is flawed to begin with. Here is an actual parallel to Iraq.

*The US govt. is brought down by Anarchist West Virginian milltia fanatics in a bloody coup.

The American people live under oppression and torture for decades by this group.

The British come in at their own great expense and take out the nutcase millitia and set up a democratic election to let a proper American govt. be formed. The British are more then happy to leave once the US can stand on its own.*

Now, what would you do?

If I were involved in this situation I would probably do a lot of dropping to my knees and thanking every British soldier I saw. Killing them, or americans who had nothing to do with it would be the last thing on my mind.

I'm thinking more of the people who are insurgents. They don't know the life of the oppressed people. They knew a life where they relied on saddam's regime for their liveliehood. They are not good people but their it's not just them. Their families are involved as well. Just like the Somalian conflict, you are looking at this problem from our viewpoint. I DONT WANT THAT. Please don't look at this as Joe American who can afford a nice shiny computer, and lives in relative luxury (half the forum members probably never had a steady job, have never gone hungry, or worried about not being able to heat their homes). Look at this as someone whose entire livelihood, the food to feed their families, was from Saddam Hussein's power. These people don't know what we know (or think we know). I am saying, that if your way of life was stolen from you, would you not lash out? You make the perfect point, but not from the view of the insurgents. Yes they are probably bad people, but many are from Saddams army. They are men who were forced into the army or believed in it, now everything they fought for (some I'm sure still remember the Gulf war) is lost, they will resist.
 
I'm thinking more of the people who are insurgents.

So am I. Just because the Sunni's were treated better by Saddam then the Shiites, doesn't mean they were treated well. You are talking about Joe Insurgent whose life was still much worse under Saddam. The Baathist elites might be upset to have their power stolen, but they were all muderers and terrorists to begin with, so I don't care what they think their reasons are.

The motivation of Joe Insurgent comes from brainwashing.
 
GhostFox said:
The Baathist elites might be upset to have their power stolen, but they were all muderers and terrorists to begin with, so I don't care what they think their reasons are.

That is a horrible, horrible thing to say. Frankly I didn't think racism was tolerated on these boards. I would like you to remove that. Just because you know nothing about them, does not give you the right to categorize people like that. If you want to spew racism, DO NOT do it here.

As far as I am concerned this thread is over, civil discussion apparently is impossible. Racism is the retort of the weak.
 
That is a horrible, horrible thing to say. Frankly I didn't think racism was tolerated on these boards. I would like you to remove that. Just because you know nothing about them, does not give you the right to categorize people like that. If you want to spew racism, DO NOT do it here.

That's racist how? My statement was factually correct.
 
GhostFox said:
The Baathist elites might be upset to have their power stolen, but they were all muderers and terrorists to begin with, so I don't care what they think their reasons are.


GhostFox said:
That's racist how? My statement was factually correct.

I'm terribly sorry, please indulge me and show me the factual evidence that proves that they were all muderers and terrorists to begin with and then I will withdraw my remark that what you said is racism.
 
Mod, please close this thread, I do not want it to be associated with racism, and ignorant racist points of view. I'm sorry for some of the responses, this was not my intention.
 
I'm terribly sorry, please indulge me and show me the factual evidence that proves that they were all muderers and terrorists to begin with and then I will withdraw my remark that what you said is racism.

Item A: How they acheived power.
Item B: How they oppressed, tortured, and killed Iraqi's.

Are you going to give an angry speech defending Hitler and the Nazi's next?
 
Baathists were members of Saddam's party...

Its like calling Nazis a bunch of murderers.

I'm holding my breath for that retraction :upstare:
 
Haha, oh man I just have to pop in here. kmack, you do know Baathists are members of a *political* party, not a race, right?
 
If anyone like Saddam, Hitler, Farradad Aideed, Assad from Syria was in power where I lived, I would be praying for the US or som1 to come. Problem is, that most times, no1 comes. Its good that the US has the balls to come when it can.
 
GhostFox said:
Item A: How they acheived power.
Item B: How they oppressed, tortured, and killed Iraqi's.

Are you going to give an angry speech defending Hitler and the Nazi's next?

Baathists are not limited to the Government of Iraq, to single them out as alone in the insurgency is incorrect. In fact the insurgency is also comprised of Sunnis and even some of the majority shi'ites. Hell the shi'ites INVENTED the modern guerrilla warfare occuring in Iraq. They started the wave of muslim suicide bombings that have torn apart the middle east for several decades. The Shi'ite history is a steeped in violence and terrorism as the Baathist, do you mean to tell me this is the geovernment we are putting in power?
 
kmack said:
As i have said before, they generally do not attack RANDOMLY.

The attacks are directed at the police departments, and military recruitment areas. The attack today (largest in 2 years) was directed at men waiting for their physicals so they can join the police. They are also directed at Shi'ites and near the election time they were directed at voters, voting officials and polling places. In general they are not random attacks but directed to scare people off from the Police departments and military, and previously from voting. This really isn't what the topic is about, and especially since you are incorrect, making the same incorrect statement over and over, and offering nothing to back it up, I would ask you to get back to the topic at hand and stop trolling, or, leave my thread. thank you.


Too kill unarmed men queueing up to join the police force and get the country under control is disgusting and they are murderers. Too kill innocent, unarmed men and women who want to vote in the countries first election, is disgusting and they are murderers.
Too attack and try to kill armed American, British soldiers, etc, who are in your country, to try to help you, because some extremely religious fanatical that has lost everything because he was a supporter of Sadame tells you too, is terrorism/insurgency.
Too attack a foreign soldier who is part of a foreign army invading your country and trying to take away yours and your peoples freedom, raping your women, murdering your children, is couragous and you're a freedom fighter.
 
kmack said:
Well, they see those Iraqi's as the enemy, those Iraqi's were joining a U.S. trained military, or a U.S. backed police force. Those Iraqi's are also the one's who insurgents feel have taken over the Iraqi government.

If you go back to the American revolution, americans would turn on each other if they felt their neighbors were helping the British.

Or what about the McCarthy hearings? U.S. citizens turned on their neighbors, calling them communists, while it's not exactly murder, it is turning on your fellow americans and destroying their lives :|


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7038038/site/newsweek/

I fail to see how a woman dressed in nice clothes could be labeled an enemy of the state.

These are fanatical extremists willing to kill and die for a twisted and mangled version of their religion, ready to kill anyone who fails to pick up arms and support them, ready to kill anyone who has a slightly different view to theirs, etc, etc, etc.
 
Razor said:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7038038/site/newsweek/

I fail to see how a woman dressed in nice clothes could be labeled an enemy of the state.

These are fanatical extremists willing to kill and die for a twisted and mangled version of their religion, ready to kill anyone who fails to pick up arms and support them, ready to kill anyone who has a slightly different view to theirs, etc, etc, etc.

yes they are.
 
Let's make a little comparison here. Because I agree totally with what Kmack is saying, and think it's nice that people are trying to look at both sides of the war rather than just saying "we're good, they're evil - end discussion."

OK. In Iraq the people blowing themselves up for a cause that they believe in. They don't think; "well, I'm feeling pretty evil today, what I should really do is blow myself up and kill some civilians."
No, what they see is an army invading that in the past has done a lot of nasty things to them you can't dispute that. The UN sanctions and bombings of water treatment facilities killed half a million people, that is undisputable. They have a reason to commit these acts of terrorism. It may have been hammered at their skulls by their leaders for some time, which you can call brainwashing if you like, it's still based around fact.

Now comparison #1:
The reason we blew up the water treatment facilities was to get the civilian population to otherthrow Saddam, the leader the west wanted out of power. To do so we put innocent Iraqis in a situation where it was: Overthrow this leader and we'll stop you from dying. We'll stop bombing these water treatment facilities, we'll fix them, you'll live.
Do what we want you to do or you'll die

Now, in Iraq the terrorists are using terror on a smaller scale. Running around blowing up innocent people siding with 'the enemy' and saying; right, we'll stop doing this if you do what we want you to do.
Do what we want you to do or you'll die

Comparison #2: We are in uproar, and rightly so, that innocent people are being killed by terrorists. It is wrong, it is evil. However the terrorists, limited in resources, have to resort to such methods of fear to get their message across. I don't agree with that message, but its what they believe in and they are desperate to get their message across.
These innocents are dying for a cause that the terrorists believe in

Now, look at our invasion. Our campaign has killed somewhere between 16'000 and 100'000 Iraqis. However it was for something we believe in, and it seems something the Iraqis as a majority believe in.
Then there's the prisons. People being arrested and imprisoned, frequently tortured and occasionally killed; many have been found to be innocent. Yet that is war, we are told.
These innocents are dying for a cause that the west believe in

In both of these comparisons you're gonna agree with the second example, but not the first. One is evil, one is okay. Yet one kills more people, one kills less.

We have bias opinions, of course, but to just dismiss the other side's beliefs as evil, brainwashed or whatever, and embracing our own is idiotic.
 
burner69 said:
Let's make a little comparison here. Because I agree totally with what Kmack is saying, and think it's nice that people are trying to look at both sides of the war rather than just saying "we're good, they're evil - end discussion."

OK. In Iraq the people blowing themselves up for a cause that they believe in. They don't think; "well, I'm feeling pretty evil today, what I should really do is blow myself up and kill some civilians."
No, what they see is an army invading that in the past has done a lot of nasty things to them you can't dispute that. The UN sanctions and bombings of water treatment facilities killed half a million people, that is undisputable. They have a reason to commit these acts of terrorism. It may have been hammered at their skulls by their leaders for some time, which you can call brainwashing if you like, it's still based around fact.

Now comparison #1:
The reason we blew up the water treatment facilities was to get the civilian population to otherthrow Saddam, the leader the west wanted out of power. To do so we put innocent Iraqis in a situation where it was: Overthrow this leader and we'll stop you from dying. We'll stop bombing these water treatment facilities, we'll fix them, you'll live.
Do what we want you to do or you'll die

Now, in Iraq the terrorists are using terror on a smaller scale. Running around blowing up innocent people siding with 'the enemy' and saying; right, we'll stop doing this if you do what we want you to do.
Do what we want you to do or you'll die

Comparison #2: We are in uproar, and rightly so, that innocent people are being killed by terrorists. It is wrong, it is evil. However the terrorists, limited in resources, have to resort to such methods of fear to get their message across. I don't agree with that message, but its what they believe in and they are desperate to get their message across.
These innocents are dying for a cause that the terrorists believe in

Now, look at our invasion. Our campaign has killed somewhere between 16'000 and 100'000 Iraqis. However it was for something we believe in, and it seems something the Iraqis as a majority believe in.
Then there's the prisons. People being arrested and imprisoned, frequently tortured and occasionally killed; many have been found to be innocent. Yet that is war, we are told.
These innocents are dying for a cause that the west believe in

In both of these comparisons you're gonna agree with the second example, but not the first. One is evil, one is okay. Yet one kills more people, one kills less.

We have bias opinions, of course, but to just dismiss the other side's beliefs as evil, brainwashed or whatever, and embracing our own is idiotic.

I totally agree with that, but a lot of the people dying aren't freedom fighters, they are just terrorists wanting to cause trouble and insecurity to try to attack the West, not to try to help the Iraqi people. If they were just attacking the soldiers, that is fine, but they aren't, they are attacking anyone and everyone at random.

Also, anyone who would attack the water treatment tank, not the person firing the missiles, but the person that made that decision should also be up on charges of war crimes.
 
Razor said:
I totally agree with that, but a lot of the people dying aren't freedom fighters, they are just terrorists wanting to cause trouble and insecurity to try to attack the West, not to try to help the Iraqi people. If they were just attacking the soldiers, that is fine, but they aren't, they are attacking anyone and everyone at random.

I agree but not all "insurgents" are created equal ...not all target civilians ..some target coalition soldiers such as in fallujah

Razor said:
Also, anyone who would attack the water treatment tank, not the person firing the missiles, but the person that made that decision should also be up on charges of war crimes.


tried and failed
 
Razor said:
I totally agree with that, but a lot of the people dying aren't freedom fighters, they are just terrorists wanting to cause trouble and insecurity to try to attack the West, not to try to help the Iraqi people. If they were just attacking the soldiers, that is fine, but they aren't, they are attacking anyone and everyone at random.
It's controlled randomness. By that I mean randomly targetting specific groups; like innocents voting, innocents signing on for the Iraqi police. They aren't just terrorists wanting to cause trouble, they are terrorists wanting to cause trouble because such trouble may bring about resistance to their enemy, the west, while at the same time killing those who are siding with them.
It's sick, I don't condone or legitimate any killing, but it's what is happening.

Also, anyone who would attack the water treatment tank, not the person firing the missiles, but the person that made that decision should also be up on charges of war crimes.

It's in direct breach of geneva conventions, as is the arrest without trial of terrorist suspects, as is the torture that goes on. Will anything happen about that? Don't hold your breath.
 
Baathists are not limited to the Government of Iraq, to single them out as alone in the insurgency is incorrect. In fact the insurgency is also comprised of Sunnis

You're right, many of those Sunnis received special treatment from Saddam because they shared a religion. Thats why they're so pissed we're there. You still arent getting that Baathists arent a race, they were a party much like the Nazis.

OK. In Iraq the people blowing themselves up for a cause that they believe in. They don't think; "well, I'm feeling pretty evil today, what I should really do is blow myself up and kill some civilians."

Yes you're right, there is a reason they are blowing themselves up. Most of them were receiving special treatment from Saddam, and now cannot stand that they are going to be viewed as equals.
 
I'm sorry I started this thread. It is becoming obvious to me that most of the forum goers are wealthy American (or other 1st world countries) kids brought up in relative luxury. The simple fact that you have the leisure time for gaming (not to mention i see the specs of the computer you bought, or had bought for you and can tell you have a lot of excess income.) manny have probably not even had a job. It is impossible in this narrow scheme to see things from any other point of view. Apparently they concept that the US intervention removed their jobs (the jobs seem horrible to us, but to them it was a job) and that means there families could starve, these people obviously feel powerfully enough about something to give thier lives for the effort. I was admiring the strength of character and belief that some people have to be able to die for their cause. As noted by your outraged responses, typed in your comfortable homes, after eating a large meal, it is obviously impossible to comprehend a life other than your own. Self centered :sleep: . Can you please just stop responding to this thread, its obvious mommy and daddy raised you so well that you just can't understand why someone would be upset that everything they worked for and believed in was taken away by infidels. These people are different from us, they did not live the way we did, think outside of your tiny little worlds for a second, that's all I asked. You just didn't get it, probably my fault. And please, don't spam now with your sob stories about how your life was so hard and mommy made you get a part time job to insure the mercedes she gave you, I don't give a sh*t. Frankly, no one here has the right to say anything in this thread from their opinions, unless they were raised in the third world, or were intelligent enough to see the world through someones elses eyes. But hey, we are the fattest, richest nation in the world, so what do we care what happens?
And don't you realize that you (as a christian, jew, or atheist but definatly not a muslim) have absolutely no idea as the the religious past for these people? Their hatred is older than all of us by THOUSANDS of years, they hold these beliefs sacred to their very core. You cannot comprehend these things from your viewpoints, and you cannot handle viewing them from a different angle.
 
Isnt it discrimination to only be allowed to respond to a thread if you are poor?
 
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