Will Cubemaps go the way of the Dodo?

[JCampbell]

I don't know if anyone else notices, but I find them (cubemaps) to be quite obvious (in a not-good way), especially on static props/walls with with flat surfaces.
For example, in HL:S, in the level "Power-up," on the floor of one of the many corridors, there is a puddle of water followed by some houndeyes. (for reference, returning on this path requires the use of boxes to avoid the same water but with New! electrically charged zapping Action!) This puddle, instead of having the Source signature water texture, has a cubemap applied on a simple material.

Oh hell..I attached a screenshot for further clarification.

I will admit cubemaps have there place, and when properly applied, can enhance the image with little or no performance loss. HOWEVER, in a situation like this, they only detract from the scene (I couldn't even tell where the water line was--see attached image).

My posed question is more for discussion than anything: do you guys think that as computers become faster and faster, that cubemaps will diminish in application and eventually cease to exist? Right now, I can see how they are a necessity. HL2's water when on full throttle take LARGE quantities of resources. Adding this reflective quality (along with several rgb filters, some diffusers, and plenty of distortion) on every texture in the scene would be a MASSIVE resource hit.

Personally, I can't wait for the day when all textures react and reflect real-time (a la Source engine water) to everything around them (even getting obscured by props and shadows).

Thoughts?

 

[Sparta]

They'll be around for a while longer i bet. Its a cheap and effective way of creating reflections rather then using a real reflecting shader

 

[ríomhaire]

Shiny!

 

[JCampbell]

Shiny!

Yes, but notice how almost nothing is accurately lined up? I tried positioning myself (heh) in various places to get a more accurate picture, but nothing would work. Maybe if they had the option for an orthographic view...

 

[Lanthanide]

The level is actually Blast Pit.

 

[JCampbell]

The level is actually Blast Pit.

Noted.
Since for some reason I can't edit my original post, it will have to remain "Power Up." It's 3AM here; the insomniac has arrived and he's kind of random regarding his subject matter's accuracy.

 

[GonzoBabbleshit]

i think the way things use cubemaps now is a much more effective method though. The fact that the example you showed is from HL: S says a lot. You wouldn't be able to find an example like this in HL2, but HL: S was just a straight port so there are gonna be problems like that. If I recall in HL1 it was very easy to tell where the water line was on that particular part

 

[Varsity]

I imagine they'll drop cubemaps eventually. They are a pain to place, but given the alternatives...

 

[SuperFurryPhil]

As technology progresses it's inevitable that cubemaps will be dropped. More realstic effects are here already, it's just a matter of waiting for hardware powerful enough to visualise them.

On a related topic, in HL2 you know how some floor textures have bump mapping and also a cubemap? Well, surely it would be possible to use a reflective effect (similar to the one used on the water except for the ripply effect obviously) instead of the cubmap?

 

[jondy]

Yup, I was thinking about that too, and it's possible. But it's easier to get away with cubemaps on shiny floors, because the reflections aren't as visible; they're refracted and blended with the floor texture.

 

[PvtRyan]

Realtime reflection either requires drawing the reflected objects twice or raytracing. And then, most objects in reality are glossy, not mirror like, this effect is already in cubemaps (they are lowres = glossy, not sharp) and would require extra processing to do this with realtime reflections. On top of that, when you finally have glossy realtime reflections, you won't notice the realtime part because it's too blurry.

The only part that needs improving atm is the transition between cubemaps. It's pretty noticable when the cubemap on your weapon changes to another one. They should somehow blend it in. Especially noticable on the desert eagle in CSS and weapons with a scope.

 

[Cypher19]

I also wouldn't mind that the shader used for cubemap reflections be affected by the surrounding light. As it is, it makes some stuff such as the crowbar or the new CT model look absolutely HORRIBLE in the dark.

 

[jondy]

Realtime reflection either requires drawing the reflected objects twice or raytracing. And then, most objects in reality are glossy, not mirror like, this effect is already in cubemaps (they are lowres = glossy, not sharp) and would require extra processing to do this with realtime reflections.

Render to texture is the technique used - drawing stuff twice is old tech. and raytracing won't be used for quite some time. Because render to texture produces a texture similar to a cubemap ( but rendered in realtime ), it can be used on floor textures as specular maps in the same way that cubemaps can, with the obvious increase in positioning accuracy.

 

[The Dark Elf]

cubemaps wont be dropped entirely for a very long time, even when technology has advanced to the point where it doesn't make much difference, simply cause they have little to no framerate hit. And they can do effects that other methods would slow the thing down trying to do, as PvtRyan has said, the glossy blurred look is much easier with a cubemap than using other methods such as realtime ones. It's also a waste of resources to use the slower methods on something you'd probably not really notice the difference anyway. I'd rather cubemaps be used in those cases than a more accurate method which would end up preventing something else being done or having to be lower quality.

I think in the case of the original posters example, it was just a bad place to use it. cubemaps are better used for subtle effects ala many area's in HL2, not large featureless surfaces of a single color with no real bump or texture to it.

 

[PvtRyan]

Render to texture is the technique used - drawing stuff twice is old tech. and raytracing won't be used for quite some time. Because render to texture produces a texture similar to a cubemap ( but rendered in realtime ), it can be used on floor textures as specular maps in the same way that cubemaps can, with the obvious increase in positioning accuracy.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the HL2 water renders things twice (three times actually) and then also uses render to texture?
From what I've gathered, it draws the normal scene without water, it draws everything above the watersurface, disturbs it with a normalmap and renders it to a texture for the reflection. Then it draws everything below the surface of the water and disturbs that too and then uses it for refraction.

Could be very wrong ofcourse.

 

[JCampbell]

cubemaps wont be dropped entirely for a very long time, even when technology has advanced to the point where it doesn't make much difference, simply cause they have little to no framerate hit. And they can do effects that other methods would slow the thing down trying to do, as PvtRyan has said, the glossy blurred look is much easier with a cubemap than using other methods such as realtime ones. It's also a waste of resources to use the slower methods on something you'd probably not really notice the difference anyway. I'd rather cubemaps be used in those cases than a more accurate method which would end up preventing something else being done or having to be lower quality.

I think in the case of the original posters example, it was just a bad place to use it. cubemaps are better used for subtle effects ala many area's in HL2, not large featureless surfaces of a single color with no real bump or texture to it.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was getting at. It probably isn't worth it for the time being, but I notice it (heh). There are examples I can think of in HL2, but they're a lot harder to point out with screenshots as opposed to video footage.
I'm not complaining as much as I'm trying to bring a new topic for discussion.