YES!!! HALO 2 coming to PC

Sparta said:
Personally i just find that FPS games (especially Halo 1/2) are cheap in comparison, because all they do is up the damage the enemy does and lessen the damage you do.
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That's an oversimplification. Some games that do this fail horribly, others benefit greatly. The end result matters, not how the developers got there.

There's generally more bad guys on Legendary, and each one is dangerous. It seems unforgiving at first because a slight mistake can kill you quickly, often in seconds. However, it is possible to fly through the game on Legendary, taking the fight to the Elites, and clearing each as zone as fast as on an easy setting - it just takes practise. The need for practise, to actually get better and quicker, is what sets Halo aside from the vast majority of FPS, and stops it from being cheap.

In the few single player fps that offer any challenge, you often hit a brick wall of 'cheating' ai on the hardest settings. Winning becomes a trial of learning enemy positions, simple exploits, quick saves, and hindsight. None of this is true with Halo.
 
Warbie said:
In the few single player fps that offer any challenge, you often hit a brick wall of 'cheating' ai on the hardest settings. Winning becomes a trial of learning enemy positions, simple exploits, quick saves, and hindsight. None of this is true with Halo.
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I disagree, i felt that was all Halo was on Legendary. With the exception of having to quicksave.

What i said at the start is still true. Neither of us has persuaded the other.
 
You just seem to be explaining why it's harder. I'm saying that the extra challenge forces the player to become that much better at the game - which isn't true with the vast majority of shooters. I don't see how any game that rewards skill in this way can be considered as 'cheap'.

//edit - how is what you're saying any different from someone who's tried Ninja Gaiden on the hardest setting for the first time, and is constantly getting thier ass kicked, or someone who's jumped onto a CS/Q3 (or whatever) server against seasoned players for the first time and spends the whole evening never getting out of spawn?
 
Warbie said:
You just seem to be explaining why it's harder. I'm saying that the extra challenge forces the player to become that much better at the game - which isn't true with the vast majority of shooters. I don't see how any game that rewards skill in this way can be considered as 'cheap'.
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I've already explained everything you said in your edit so i'm cutting to the chase here.

I consider it cheap, because the game doesnt force you to do anything new when trying to beat elites or hunters or anything. It just gives the A.I more health and the ability to shoot faster. For some games all that takes is a quick edit of the C++ code of the stats of the character. Like adding +10 to health and -10 to your health. It still requires more skill and practice to survive but thats like any game on harder difficulties.

Games like UT 2004 with Godlike bots change how the A.I behaves instead of upping the stats of the A.I. Same with Ninja Gaiden. So instead of me thinking Hard is just gonna be guys with more health, instead its guys that doing crazy mother****ing flips all over the place and jumps off walls and can predict where you're gonna move and hit you with a rocket, even when you're doing the same crazy flips as well. That's why i consider the Halo games cheap. They don't make you rethink about your strategies as much by simply changing the damage the A.I does.

As for the CS/Q3 thing, thats different, thats Multiplayer. Actual People not A.I.
 
Sparta said:
I consider it cheap, because the game doesnt force you to do anything new when trying to beat elites or hunters or anything.
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This is where we disagree. Playing Halo on Legendary is very different to on the easier settings, the difference being you have to you use tactics, be accurate, and think very quickly. Counter Strike doesn't force you do anything new when facing an opponent, just shoot him untill he's dead. It's how you do it that makes the game fun - the same is with Halo.

Sparta said:
They don't make you rethink about your strategies as much by simply changing the damage the A.I does.
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That depends on the game. In Halo it makes a huge difference to how you play, and requires more 'rethinking' than any other game I can think of. Actually, thinking takes a little too long, Zen like moments of being one with the game are required at times :)

Say you you see a few elites and a grunt near by, heading straight towards you, and another elite further away coming around the flank. To your left is a nice rock to hide behind. You run for cover, passing a few weapons on the way, and get ready to fight. On normal it wouldn't matter which weapon you decide to use, it wouldn't matter that you didn't pick up one more suitable to the job while running to the rock, it wouldn't matter which bad guy you choose to attack first, it wouldn't matter that you forgot the one coming from the side untill he's started shooting you, it wouldn't matter if you weren't very accurate. To be honst, it wouldn't matter that you didn't run for cover in the first place. In short, no strategy is required.

Replay the same scene on Legendary and you'll find a world of difference - and surviving it would be very satisfying (infact, many the most memorable and enjoyable fights i've had in Halo ended up with an agonising death - but the seconds preceeding were as frantic and demanding as any online shooter. This is why I rate Halo so highly - it's the only offline shooter i've played that, at times, matches the quick thinking and 'in the zone' moments found in the best online shooters)

Sparta said:
As for the CS/Q3 thing, thats different, thats Multiplayer. Actual People not A.I.
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Sure, that wasn't my point though. The reason newcomers find online games like these so frustrating at first is because they don't know what to do yet, they don't know how to be good. If someone finds Halo on Legendary frustrating because the enemy are killing them too quickly it's because they're allowing themselves to be shot. If they're having trouble taking down groups of elites it's because they aren't accurate enough, chooing the wrong weapons, or not using the ones they have well enough. It only takes one charged plasma shot followed by 2 pistol bullets to take out any elite, regardless of the setting. Guns like the needler, which seemed nothing but useless on normal, suddenly become awsome. Not missing with your sticky grenade becomes the difference between winning an encounter and not. I could go on and on and on (and bore anyone who's still reading this thread :))
 
Yes, Halo legendary requires you to think. If you, let's say, try to use an Assault Rifle on elites you're f*cked as are you if you try to shoot a needler straight at a hunter. But, both of these are very easy to kill if you use your head. Fully charged plasma pistol shot will remove the elite's shield no matter what and then you could just use a pistol or rifle to finish it off. And hunters are easy if you can just get behind them and aim for the orange.
 
That reminds me. Does HL2's bot AI actually change, or does it add more hp? I think it was the latter.
 
Jintor said:
That reminds me. Does HL2's bot AI actually change, or does it add more hp? I think it was the latter.
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In a way they're one and the same though. You add more health, the NPCs last longer and therefore get to show off more fancy routines... HL2 is probably an exception though. Most of the NPCs are very easy to kill quickly on Hard anyway. It could well be a case of the AI being improved (I think for instance that the AI throws more grenades and seeks cover a tiny bit more often), it's just that the HP isn't upped enough so that you'll never see the improvements.
 
Warbie said:
That depends on the game. In Halo it makes a huge difference to how you play, and requires more 'rethinking' than any other game I can think of. Actually, thinking takes a little too long, Zen like moments of being one with the game are required at times :)
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I've said it before and I"ll say it again this principle applies to any and I repeat any high quality game. The ammount you side with Halo is crazy, a game is a game.
 
Halo's just a fast-paced shooter... that does require some tactics.

That is all.

Can we get back on topic please? x.x
 
Kyo said:
I've said it before and I"ll say it again this principle applies to any and I repeat any high quality game. The ammount you side with Halo is crazy, a game is a game.
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eh? I don't get you.

I know it's game, just one that's happened to entertain me a great deal for a few years. Seeing as most last a week or two at most, I see no reason for me to 'side' with Halo any less. The happy memories of playing co-op with my brother/friends alone are enough to set it above most games.
 
xlucidx said:
Halo's just a fast-paced shooter... that does require some tactics.

That is all.

Can we get back on topic please? x.x
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Welcome to HL2.net :P
 
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