10 UN workers killed by mob in protest of koran burning by US pastor

[unozero]

it's a retarded reason though.

 

[Krynn72]

Strip them of motivation, agenda, personal gain and all you've got is a dude setting fire to some paper which happens to contain a certain religion's holy text.

No shit. Strip anything of all the bad things and it will suddenly stop being bad!

Did he explicitly compel or instruct anybody to act violently? Not so far as I can see, unless I've overlooked something.

You overlooked the fact that people said they were going to kill innocent people if he did it. The President of the United States called the pastor himself, saying people would die if he burned it. Even disregarding the fact the he knew it would happen, his motivations are clear. His intent was to have them commit violence to justify his claims. He manipulated sick, ****ed up people into killing others so that he could bash a religion he hates.

 

[GreatEmperor]

In what capacity is it worth discussing? He's morally culpable, I agree, but beyond that there's nothing inherently wrong about his actions, in fact I'll happily defend them in the name of free speech/freedom of expression. Strip them of motivation, agenda, personal gain and all you've got is a dude setting fire to some paper which happens to contain a certain religion's holy text. Of course, the problem is not really that he did it, but that he publicized it, that much can be criticized. Ultimately though, the real issue lies with the retaliation, and to accept it as inevitable while condemning the one who sparked it is a little... err, I don't really know what it is. But I don't agree with it. :v

Pussy is the word actually. They are not animals, well not loveable animals like a dog or cat or Krynn anyways, they are thinking creatures that are literally trying to strangle all debate and keep their own people in dark age thinking by constantly claiming victimization. Idiots have been buying into EVERY damn little muslim authorities' party lines that nothing is wrong with their culture and all problems can be traced to outside sources, like America. Some one burning a book in America does not warrant murder of anyone, if they want to tell us what we can do here, in front of cameras or not, they can **** off. This is what integrity is, in the face of threats is where you find it

The mafia comparison is one I would use on the Republican establishment, this is more like a shopkeeper not paying his protection money being blamed for his broken bones. I mean, he knew what would happen if he didnt

 

[Bad^Hat]

No shit. Strip anything of all the bad things and it will suddenly stop being bad!

Not the point I was trying to make. Strip the protesters' actions of the same things and you still have 10+ people dead. The book burning, taken out of context, is utterly innocuous, besides a little CO2 and the wasted paper (which, you could argue, was already wasted ). I'm not saying context isn't important, I'm saying that his actions are nothing without context, therefore there's nothing inherently wrong with them. All taken into consideration, he was absolutely negligent to act the way he did, but beyond being morally culpable there's not really any fault on his end that deserves reprimand or correction. The true fault lies squarely with the people who perpetrated and incited the killings.

 

[Stylo]

You overlooked the fact that people said they were going to kill innocent people if he did it. The President of the United States called the pastor himself, saying people would die if he burned it. Even disregarding the fact the he knew it would happen, his motivations are clear. His intent was to have them commit violence to justify his claims. He manipulated sick, ****ed up people into killing others so that he could bash a religion he hates.

Yeah, this is essentially where I'm coming from in the debate. I still think that the pastor can be held partially accountable because of this.

 

[CptStern]

jebus effing christ are you guys still talking about this? this is why I dont post comments in some threads.

 

[Mogi67]

Not the point I was trying to make. Strip the protesters' actions of the same things and you still have 10+ people dead. The book burning, taken out of context, is utterly innocuous, besides a little CO2 and the wasted paper (which, you could argue, was already wasted ). I'm not saying context isn't important, I'm saying that his actions are nothing without context, therefore there's nothing inherently wrong with them. All taken into consideration, he was absolutely negligent to act the way he did, but beyond being morally culpable there's not really any fault on his end that deserves reprimand or correction. The true fault lies squarely with the people who perpetrated and incited the killings.

you wouldn't feel any sort of responsibility if you burned the book?

 

[Krynn72]

there's not really any fault on his end that deserves reprimand or correction.

Oh, I agree. I dont think any official action should be taken to punish him. What he did is indeed protected by our constitution and I believe he should be allowed to do shit like that in a "free" society. That doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about how much of a stupid piece of shit he is, and we should treat him like we do with any member of the Westboro Church, if not worse since his malice lead to people getting murdered.

 

[CptStern]

would people's opinions be changed had this happened in the US? in canada he probably could have been prosecuted because he's inciting hatred which is a criminal code offense although the murders would have to have happened in canada not outside canadian jurisdiction

 

[lord_raken]

would people's opinions be changed had this happened in the US? in canada he probably could have been prosecuted because he's inciting hatred which is a criminal code offense although the murders would have to have happened in canada not outside canadian jurisdiction

You can be charged for inciting hatred? Holly hell, Keep your Canadian law away from my free speech. A law like that in the US would kill half the political "debate" in this nation, but as much as I hate the extreme ideology people spout, I would never take their right to say it. ( and Hate Speech restrictions are BS)

The pastor should be ridiculed and figuratively spat on from every moderate in the world but he had every right to do what he did.... He is still a stupid right winger, but he didn't violate any laws... except the unwritten law of basic human decency.

 

[ríomhaire]

jebus effing christ are you guys still talking about this? this is why I dont post comments in some threads.

Many of us prefer it when you keep it that way.

 

[CptStern]

now you make me want to make all sorts of comments. my first comment is BLARRRGHHHHLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOsuckmydickLILILILIELIELOU!!!

 

[Kadayi]

Book burner is a tard, but the killers are worse. Personally I think it's high time Islam bucked it's ideas up and got with the 21th century tbh.

 

[Absinthe]

No shit. Strip anything of all the bad things and it will suddenly stop being bad!


You overlooked the fact that people said they were going to kill innocent people if he did it. The President of the United States called the pastor himself, saying people would die if he burned it. Even disregarding the fact the he knew it would happen, his motivations are clear. His intent was to have them commit violence to justify his claims. He manipulated sick, ****ed up people into killing others so that he could bash a religion he hates.

I don't really know how you can say that after reading my posts. I understand that aspect entirely; that he was forewarned. I still don't think his actions can be considered responsible in any meaningful sense here. I can't blame him for the violently irrational reactions of others. Think what you want, but he is not bound to the ridiculous sensitivity issues of these people any more than you or I, nor should he be. He was guilty of being of a crude jackass, the toll of his actions being a burnt book. The killers in Afghanistan are guilty of... well, murder for one. The causation is mostly irrelevant as far as I'm concerned.

I don't disagree with your last post. He is worth the mockery and scorn. I'm only arguing against the sentiment that actions like his should somehow be censored or legally reprimanded somehow.

you wouldn't feel any sort of responsibility if you burned the book?

Moral guilt is another matter entirely, and not what we're talking about. You couldn't draw Jones up on charges of inciting violence or war crimes.

 

[No Limit]

So you are saying if I go punch a beehive I am in no way responsible for what those bees do (atleast not in any meaningful way)?

 

[ríomhaire]

What's he's saying is that if you say that honey sucks you're not responsible for how bees in another country react.

 

[No Limit]

Bees don't talk.

 

[Sulkdodds]

This may not be the most useful metaphor.

 

[Stylo]

What's he's saying is that if you say that honey sucks you're not responsible for how bees in another country react.

Best post.

 

[Sheepo]

I hope you are not seriously implying the ignorant Pastor is responsible for the actions of these murderers. Decapitating another human being is not a rational response to the burning of a mass-produced bundle of paper.

Why the **** is this forum so into finding completely nonexistent implications lately? Seriously, "He was warned this would happen?" You got that from such a simple summary of facts? There's a difference between reading between the lines and imagining ones that never even existed.

Edit:

Haha, I love how unozero wipes his sad body all over the line between trolling and genuine retardation.

 

[flamingdts]

The Pastor should receive the cruelest punishment possible without breaking the law.

Someone cyber bully him!

 

[StarBob]

Religion is stupid. It gives people excuses to do stupid things with made up justification. No one wins. Everyone just hopes after they die that they win...

You know what really doesn't make sense to me about religion? What sparked the necessity for religious people to coerce and convert people to their religion? When I was loosely associated with Christianity, it was often pressed that we should go forth and "spread the word." That phrase is used a lot. The reason is always "because it's God's will." Of course all things in modern religion are products of past belief systems. What of the past dictated mass conversion? I'm just guessing from the time it's taken me to type this, is that when religions were first adopted, it was important to have as many followers as necessary to have yourself recognized and allowed to practice as you please.

I'm just... disappointed that something that so openly professes peace, love, and unity - as with just about any religion - can spawn so very much war, hate, and segregation...

 

[Yuri]

What's he's saying is that if you say that honey sucks you're not responsible for how bees in another country react.

i wanted to respond angrily to a few things in this thread, but this post calmed me down. <3

 

[Bad^Hat]

jebus effing christ are you guys still talking about this? this is why I dont post comments in some threads.

>make thread
>complain when people post in it
>is stern

you wouldn't feel any sort of responsibility if you burned the book?

I would, as should he. If you read my posts carefully, I wasn't actually objecting to that.

Oh, I agree. I dont think any official action should be taken to punish him. What he did is indeed protected by our constitution and I believe he should be allowed to do shit like that in a "free" society. That doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about how much of a stupid piece of shit he is, and we should treat him like we do with any member of the Westboro Church, if not worse since his malice lead to people getting murdered.

I agree, yeah. I guess I shouldn't have said it wasn't worth talking about, what I meant was that his role pales in comparison to the killings and the mullahs' incitement, and should be worth less attention. But yeah, to bring up something else you said, the fact he was forewarned and was aware of the probable outcome is the most damning part on his end.

 

[Eejit]

What's he's saying is that if you say that honey sucks you're not responsible for how bees in another country react.

If you're warned before saying honey sucks that they will react by stinging people to death but go ahead anyway you do bear some responsibility.
Just because you have a right does not mean that it is always morally laudable to exercise that right.


To remove the issue slightly from Islam, how about those who protest the funerals of gay soldiers? The protesters are exercising their right to free speech. They are doing so in a very inflammatory manner. If a family member of one of the homosexual soldiers had later reacted by beating up a member of an anti-gay church would the protesters be entirely innocent of blame? How about if the protesters were warned beforehand that there was a very high chance that their picketing a funeral would result in beatings? Would they still bear zero responsibility?

 

[Stylo]

Religion is stupid. It gives people excuses to do stupid things with made up justification. No one wins. Everyone just hopes after they die that they win...

You know what really doesn't make sense to me about religion? What sparked the necessity for religious people to coerce and convert people to their religion? When I was loosely associated with Christianity, it was often pressed that we should go forth and "spread the word." That phrase is used a lot. The reason is always "because it's God's will." Of course all things in modern religion are products of past belief systems. What of the past dictated mass conversion? I'm just guessing from the time it's taken me to type this, is that when religions were first adopted, it was important to have as many followers as necessary to have yourself recognized and allowed to practice as you please.

I'm just... disappointed that something that so openly professes peace, love, and unity - as with just about any religion - can spawn so very much war, hate, and segregation...

Go-Go Gadget MASSIVE sweeping generalisation about "Religion".

 

[Absinthe]

And what of Sulk's scenario earlier in the thread? What if participants in a gay pride event were forewarned that their presence could provoke violent aggression towards homosexuals in the area? Would the event planners be responsible for the deaths caused by the irrational hatred of others? Yes and no, I guess. After all, if there's no event then there's no queer bashing. But it doesn't seem worth the scrutiny as much as the actual culprits who harmed people. And could we really say they were in the wrong to exercise their rights to such an event? I think it's easier to condemn Terry Jones because we know his opinions are stupid and his actions were reckless, but he's afforded the same freedom as everybody else.

I believe we're all pretty much in agreement that as an active agent in this tragedy, there's some kind of responsibility for it laid at his feet. But how far is it with pursuing when assigning blame for the deaths?

 

[Stylo]

Just to clarify, I don't think Jones it at fault legally or anything like that. I just don't think people should shift the entirety of their focus on the murderers is all. But then that's just down to personal opinion really.

 

[unozero]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBUfpmuVqow&feature=feedu



very related. must see

Retired Navy SEAL Don Shipley BLASTS Phony Navy SEAL of the Week Mark Anthony Niemczyk the owner of The 911 Ground Zero Truck and Pastor Terry Jones. Fake Fraud Phony Military Impostor.

 

[unozero]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2z-YHF_GVk&feature=feedu

 

[GreatEmperor]

Go-Go Gadget MASSIVE sweeping generalisation about "Religion".

Religion by its nature CANT abide questioning though, it has to be definite and stick to its story, it even does half of that shittily though.

When something cant be challenged and survive, it takes indoctrination and general intimidation to enforce dogma